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A Simple Transaction I

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Sharkey_smt said:
:???: Geas tasks are either capture a territory or kill an individual. So basically 937 octillion years of combat are non negotiable. When you have a Geas task of kill X, I don't care how much SOCIAL or MORAL you are, you have to do it or you die.
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The combat outside the assassination though is negotiable though. Conquest also tends to have cultural victory options.

Edit: So while there will be combat from the Geas and particularly intractable Apocrypha incidents, everything else is negotiable given noncombat skills.
 
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Sharkey_smt said:
Cultural victories are boring and you know what that means:
Apocryphal curse makes a wonder that reduces everyone hostility by 2 but Space Gandhi has a hostility of 1 and the reduction makes his hostility overflow into 255(max) and start nuking everyone.
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I realized that and added an amendment about how the only ensured combats are chosen one assassinations(Edit: If they can be stealth-killed Dishonored style a fight may not even be necessary they just die barring apocryphal bullshit) and intractable apocrypha incidents.
 
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Sharkey_smt said:
:???: Geas tasks are either capture a territory or kill an individual. So basically 937 octillion years of combat are non negotiable. When you have a Geas task of kill X, I don't care how much SOCIAL or MORAL you are, you have to do it or you die.
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The Geas presumably has a range of potential tasks, given that "Your assigned tasks will always be within your given capabilities to achieve." Restricting Hunger's capabilities to the Sword limits the kind of tasks that he will be able to handle, imo.

Just a Moment doesn't say that Hunger rejects using violence. It even says that we will continue getting Sword advancements when they are most useful. But it also makes room for diplomancy and guile instead of direct confrontations.

The parts of the Vanreir, Avecarn, and Sten fights that I liked the most were when Hunger was trying to talk them out of killing themselves on his blade. At the end of the day, I think leaning into new abilities and types of conflict is best for the quest overall. It will pave the way for more dramatic mid-fight revelations like the Byakuya and Aizen scenes.
 
[X] "Just a moment."
[X] Pinnacle
[X] Pristine [7 Arete]

Don't want to directly follow the Forebearer's path, and Fine rubs me wrong. Hope this gets us more Age and Guile.
 
Sharkey_smt said:
Cultural victories are boring and you know what that means:
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I don't know if I'd assume that unless we actually get a GM confirmation. I've certainly thought works that didn't even contain ANY combat were pretty exciting, not that I expect AST to ever forgo fight scenes or would want it too, but theirs obviously problems that aren't intractable via social means and we've had two of Hunger's toughest fights won via employing dialogue in the past.




Unelemental said:
6. Forebear avoids getting fucked over by Divine Speech via immediately Cutting Through the Ur-Mother. The lesson to learn here is to talk to opponents more often.
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I know the point is this is supposed to be worst possible interpretation but I keep seeing people write this with complete sincerity and I just don't understand where it's coming from. In his second encounter with her greater aspect we saw him converse with her, and even in the first he answered her question about how he felt about abandoning his name with the fact that he didn't think about it anymore. If she was capable of mind-whammying him via talking, it's weird that she didn't bother when she was already doing that. She clearly had the ability to employ divine speech against him then and she even did, when she attempted to stop him from being able to move in the second encounter and then when she rattled off her death curse by trying to hit him with the power of Ruin. The Forebear no-selled her both times, and nothing about his thoughts where he chose to cut through even hinted that he felt he was in the least bit danger, merely that he found the whole thing unpleasant.

Meanwhile, we had multiple pretty clear cut examples of times when Hunger not adopting the Forebear's approach allowed him to actually defeat his opponents in some of his toughest fights like with Vanrier or Sten, neither of which seemed likely to go in his favor had he mimicked this guys approach, called for surrender once, and then deafened himself till the fight was over.
 
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[X] "Never better."
[X] Overwhelm
[X] Whiteout [7 Arete]

I don't want to rely only on the blade but I also don't want to stop relying on it either. I find the characterization of both never better and just a moment to be bad. So I'm voting for mechanical benefits. I know voting for mechanics on a characterization vote isn't exactly smart but it's the only thing I have left to fall back on. RIP fine.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Projectile on Aug 28, 2020 at 3:42 PM, finished with 329 posts and 67 votes.
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Tyrant_Rayne said:
[X] "Never better."
[X] Overwhelm
[X] Whiteout [7 Arete]

I don't want to rely only on the blade but I also don't want to stop relying on it either. I find the characterization of both never better and just a moment to be bad. So I'm voting for mechanical benefits. I know voting for mechanics on a characterization vote isn't exactly smart but it's the only thing I gave to fall back on. RIP fine.
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If you want to talk about mechanics, Never Better ignores roughly 50 Arete worth of boosts: the Tears panoply slot (25 arete) is devoted to persuasion and rulership, while the tower EFB (25 arete) is devoted to CHA. Our Empyrean Signs are most practical for a ruler and a planner. Ignore the question of buying more upgrades for these panoply items: "Never Better" says we won't even use them in-narrative!

Unlocking OaF2 will not be relevant for a long time: there are lots of Pick and Arete expenditures needed in the short run.

By contrast, JAM still lets us use our whole panoply. There would be fewer Sword advancements, but we will still use the sword. The mechanical benefit of "Get Pillars sooner" will be relevant way before we'd buy OAF2. And again, we'd still be able to get OAF2! In terms of mechanics, JAM sacrifices much less than NB.

As for characterization, JAM leaves Hunger's future in the hands of the Voters, instead of precomitting to a particular archetype. That alone is a good reason to buy JAM imo
 
Sara said:
I know the point is this supposed to be worst possible interpretation but I keep seeing people write this with complete sincerity and I just don't understand where it's coming from. In his second encounter with her greater aspect we saw him converse with her, and even in the first he answered her question about how he felt about abandoning his name with the fact that he didn't think about it anymore. If she was capable of mind-whyammying him via talking, it's weird that she didn't bother when she was already doing that. She clearly had the ability to employ divine speech against him then and she even did, when she attempted to stop him from being able to move in the second encounter and then when she rattled off her death curse by trying to hit him with the power of Ruin. The Forebear no-selled her both times, and nothing about his thoughts where he chose to cut through even hinted that he felt he was in the least bit danger, merely that he found the whole thing unpleasant.

Meanwhile, we had multiple pretty clear cut examples of times when Hunger not adopting the Forebear's approach allowed him to actually defeat his opponents in some of his toughest fights like with Vanrier or Sten, neither of which seemed likely to go in his favor had he mimicked this guys approach, called for surrender once, and then deafened himself till the fight was over.
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While it's the worst possible interpretation, as you mentioned, I do think that the scene makes it look deceptively like the Forebear handled the Ur-Mother easily. You don't sleep for eons after dealing with an easy threat. He had to do the equivalent of Scion's PtV to reach the solution, cheat by stealing the Ruin from the future timeline, and wait till she killed countless innocents to activate Hour of Reckoning. That the Forebear didn't get excited about the victory is a consequence of his mindset, not the actual situation.
 
So I realized something on a meta level I just brought up in discord.

We've got 4 Artifacts for Rihaku to write advancements for right now. Writing advancements is time consuming. Empyrean Mantle kicks up the thematic breadth of the mantle/makes Rihaku need to write more advancements. Hunger getting better at unlocking Praxis advancements and an increased percentage of rare advancements... those rare advancements could be Forbear's blade ones and the Praxis advancements would come at the expense of the Mantle/Tears/Ring/a fifth artifact's advancements if we get it.
 
Unelemental said:
While it's the worst possible interpretation, as you mentioned, I do think that the scene makes it look deceptively like the Forebear handled the Ur-Mother easily. You don't sleep for eons after dealing with an easy threat. He had to do the equivalent of Scion's PtV to reach the solution, cheat by stealing the Ruin from the future timeline, and wait till she killed countless innocents to activate Hour of Reckoning. That the Forebear didn't get excited about the victory is a consequence of his mindset, not the actual situation.
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I think you're misunderstanding me. The antithesis to the idea of "Not talking to The Ur-Mother for any extended period was the best possible move in that situation" isn't "The Ur-Mother was a total pushover for the Forebear that he crushed like a ant." The narration is pretty clear that he slept because he spent mightily of himself. But here's the thing. The Forebear had the equivalent of Scion's PTV, he could cheat by stealing the power of ruin, and he could Cut Through her attempt to force him to the negotiating table via imposing stasis on casualty. We know that because he quite clearly did that in the flashback.

What I'm not seeing but I keep seeing people argue as if it's there is any sort of textual evidence that had he just talked with her for five minutes, perhaps learned about the thing that had turned his life into a ceaseless procession through over a thousand hell worlds, that he would have somehow been robbed of the ability to do so.

People keep saying that had he not immediately went for the kill her super social powers would have totally mindwhammied him, but and I can't stress this enough, she had the chance to, they were actually talking with each other, and she couldn't manage too. Even the barest attempt to get him not too immediately rev up his successful attempt to kill her after he didn't immediately capitulate in full surrender did nothing to stay his hand. Hell, he didn't even bother to turn off his hearing during the second encounter. He literally kept offered her a last chance, and her response to that wasn't to try to social him to wait and hear her out, it was to oppose him in direct strife which funnily enough caused her to kill countless innocents.
 
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[X] ReaderOfFate

Had a talk with ReaderOfFate and we agreed that while I did broke off the agreement in the end, they still followed theirs so I'll just reduce my end of the bargain into 1 vetoless marker. The other two who made a deal, remind me if you still kept voting for a Tower option and I'll still give both of you 1 vetoless marker.
 
Our Charisma is our fifth best stat, with slightly under a third of our greatest stat, agility. We've got enough social skill to mindwhammy up to mid-tier voyaging realm residents(Using Larissa and Sten as mid-tier) if we wanted to. If our development continues along this line, we will have a meaningful secondary social suite to go with our combat skills.

Edit: Considering our charisma has grown since then, we can probably mind whammy upper-mid/low-high tier voyaging realm residents.
 
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Sara said:
I think you're misunderstanding me. The antithesis to the idea of "Not talking to The Ur-Mother for any extended period was the best possible move in that situation" isn't "The Ur-Mother was a total pushover for the Forebear that he crushed like a ant." The narration is pretty clear that he slept because he spent mightily of himself. But here's the thing. The Forebear had the equivalent of Scion's PTV, he could cheat by stealing the power of ruin, and he could Cut Through her attempt to force him to the negotiating table via imposing stasis on casualty. We know that because he quite clearly did that in the flashback.

What I'm not seeing is any sort of textual evidence that had he just talked with her for five minutes, perhaps learned about the thing that had turned his life into a ceaseless procession through over a thousand hell worlds, that he would have somehow been robbed of the ability to do so.

People keep saying that had he not immediately went for the kill her super social powers would have totally mindwhammied him, but and I can't stress this enough, she had the chance to, they were actually talking with each other, and she couldn't manage too. Even the barest attempt to get him not too immediately rev up his successful attempt to kill her after he didn't immediately capitulate in full surrender did nothing to stay his hand. Hell, he didn't even bother to turn off his hearing during the second encounter. He literally kept offered her a last chance, and her response to that wasn't to try to social him to wait and hear her out, it was to oppose him in direct strife which funnily enough caused her to kill countless innocents.
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Well, you're right that it's hard to tell what would have happened if he just talked to her for a bit. We can only speculate based on what we saw. My main reasons for thinking it would have ended badly are as follows:

1. The Forebear was quite competent, to say the least, and while we sometimes like to pretend he's all about cutting things, the example of Holy Shit proves that he had some social options going for him. I don't think he would go for a less effective option just because the Ur-Mother annoyed him.
2. The Ur-Mother had him immobilized and spoke quite confidently about her Divine Speech. Maybe she was just boasting, but that he had to expend himself so greatly to defeat her tells me the ability was quite powerful even when used as a blunt instrument. And its name (plus the description in "Never better") suggests to me that its actual field of specialization is diplomacy.
3. Her defeating the Forebear isn't a binary thing that would happen instantly. That they had talked for a while could mean that he was immune to her diplomancy, but it could also mean that she needed time and opportunity to talk to the Forebear more in order to work her magic. I favor the latter possibility.

I can't say for sure whether things would have ended worse if he talked, or by how much, all I have is my inferences. But I do believe he made a good choice there.
 
Orm Embar said:
but auroras were draped around its ankles like a kilt.
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...why would a kilt ever be around ankles? Has it been caught changing?
Conjured Blade said:
@HoratioVonBecker You've offered your vote for sale several times in the past, are you on the market at the moment?
Edit: If so I'll offer you one marker with one veto to back Just a Moment/Overwhelm
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I am not. I might take that offer if my writein is unambiguously rejected, although this particular time my vote comes with Comeuppance's Transaction, Stormbone, and my own write-in/analysis to weight it, so one marker may not be enough!
Thank you for offering, though. Moment seems like the least-bad of the offered trajectories, even if it does seem an overreaction.
 
But the one talking about the procession was not the Ur mother herself, but a lesser aspect of her and thus presumably less dangerous than the full one later who may I remind you only appeared after he put his sword in the stone. Also while the Forbear is presumably competent at things besides martial power he definitely shows a preference for it and I would rather it not become our go to even in situations where we have other more applicable skills not being the forbear and still having room to change.
 
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SpectatingRaven said:
[X] ReaderOfFate

Had a talk with ReaderOfFate and we agreed that while I did broke off the agreement in the end, they still followed theirs so I'll just reduce my end of the bargain into 1 vetoless marker. The other two who made a deal, remind me if you still kept voting for a Tower option and I'll still give both of you 1 vetoless marker.
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I did in the consolidation vote!
Pechum said:
[X] Eye of the Storm
:3
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HoratioVonBecker said:
one marker may not be enough!
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In addition to Conjured Blade's marker, I'd sweeten the offer with a Tier 3A Zampano Vote Marker, which secures both my vote and my argumentation in favor of one vote option (including subvotes).

Edit: A stands for Argumentation
 
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Zfglx said:
But the one talking about the procession was not the Ur mother herself, but a lesser aspect of her and thus presumably less dangerous than the full one later who may I remind you only appeared after he put his sword in the stone.
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If one has an informational payload that is dangerous by virtue of its content and not delivery, it makes sense to place it into the most disposable emissary! That said, if the content was true perhaps it could have behooved the Forebear to hear it... but who is to say it was not a misleading truth when framed in the context of the Ur-Mother's opposition? There are reasonable arguments to be made for both sides, and certainly situations where the Forebear's decision was objectively correct or incorrect depending on that context.

In the absence of perfect information, one can only rely on one's own calibrated heuristics, and they took him to the decision that he made - to cut through.
 
Unelemental said:
Well, you're right that it's hard to tell what would have happened if he just talked to her for a bit. We can only speculate based on what we saw. My main reasons for thinking it would have ended badly are as follows:

1. The Forebear was quite competent, to say the least, and while we sometimes like to pretend he's all about cutting things, the example of Holy Shit proves that he had some social options going for him. I don't think he would go for a less effective option just because the Ur-Mother annoyed him.
2. The Ur-Mother had him immobilized and spoke quite confidently about her Divine Speech. Maybe she was just boasting, but that he had to expend himself so greatly to defeat her tells me the ability was quite powerful even when used as a blunt instrument. And its name (plus the description in "Never better") suggests to me that its actual field of specialization is diplomacy.
3. Her defeating the Forebear isn't a binary thing that would happen instantly. That they had talked for a while could mean that he was immune to her diplomancy, but it could also mean that she needed time and opportunity to talk to the Forebear more in order to work her magic. I favor the latter possibility.

I can't say for sure whether things would have ended worse if he talked, or by how much, all I have is my inferences. But I do believe he made a good choice there.
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See, I really think this is a bad tact to take when trying to evaluate other characters actions. Competence is not some magic trait that makes someone immune from doing suboptimal things, especially when you've set into a successful routine over a number of years. That John Wick is a superlative assassin who awes most people he comes in contact with and seems able to make amazing tactical decisions even on the fly when under extreme duress does not mean I should assume that his predilection for vengeance and his continued attempts to embroil himself further in the underworld even after it was completed were the best decisions for his health, or happiness, or that of anyone he might still care about. Simply that it's the course of action he feels most comfortable with.

Edit: Also, I think it steers us into the trap of seeing a character we label competent and then simply assuming any action they take is the correct one because of this supposed confidence even in the absence of reasons to believe so, which can end up being a mislead heuristic is that don't turn out to be incapable of doing the wrong thing, or even if they are, of misunderstanding the context of the situation that made it the right thing because we didn't reason it out but it assumed it was the case.

And yes, she did immobilize him and was very confident about her divine speech. The specific things that she claimed confident about her Divine Speech was that it would allow her to force the Forebear to the negotiating table via that immobilization that she thought unbreakable and that it would allow to ruin him even if it had to be done from beyond Oblivion. Now maybe this was all a illusion and the forebear didn't really break out or maybe her death curse did eventually ruin him a million more worlds down the lines, but I don't see any reason to suspect that based off what we know, so I feel safe saying her confidence in her Divine Speech's ability to do the things she spoke about were examples of over-confidence.
 
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Some 5am thoughts.

Dunno if it's mentioned before, or thought about but.

JAM turns Hunger away from the sword and lessens the chances of getting them advancements right.

So, it's not this massive leap of logic that he'll spend less and less time, less and less effort on it.

What might take some gymnastics though, is the relationship with the Sword Praxis we have available.

We turn away from the sword. Treat as if it's this some unholy artefact and should only ever be the last resort. Focus on diplomancy, morals, or whatever other dressing is available.

May as well let the Sword Praxis rust off too since that's just an embellished Cut Through. Or, I dunno.

Going with Never Better doesn't tell me that we're gonna go on ahead and ignore Core Panoply or all the other stuff we've abducted since then. No lowered advancement rates, no lowered effectiveness, no removed choices. If anything, future advancements would end up being more tightly knit because the advancements become heavier accessories to thing that's gonna focus on the singular idea of exacting vengeance on the Hidden Ones.

But that's just my 5am thoughts.

If you're afraid of walking the Forebear's Path, then that's fine. Just gotta walk even further.

Now if only we had All Paths, humm.
 
Sara said:
See, I really think this is a bad tact to take when trying to evaluate other characters actions. Competence is not some magic trait that makes someone immune from doing suboptimal things, especially when you've set into a successful routine over a number of years. That John Wick is a superlative assassin who awes most people he comes in contact with and seems able to amazing tactical decisions even on the fly when under extreme duress does not mean I should assume that his predilection for vengeance and his continued attempts to embroil himself further in the underworld even after it was completed were the best decisions for his health, or happiness, or that of anyone he might still care about. Simply that it's the course of action he feels most comfortable with.

And yes, she did immobilize him and was very confident about her divine speech. The specific things that she claimed confident about her Divine Speech was that it would allow her to force the Forebear to the negotiating table via that immobilization that she thought unbreakable and that it would allow to ruin him even if it had to be done from beyond Oblivion. Now maybe this was all a illusion and the forebear didn't really break out or maybe her death curse did eventually ruin him a million more worlds down the lines, but I don't see any reason to suspect that based off what we know, so I feel safe saying her confidence in her Divine Speech's ability to do the things she spoke about were examples of over-confidence.
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Naturally the Forebear isn't omnicompetent and can make mistakes. But he does possess a significant measure of competence in areas both martial and social, and had way more information than we can extract from the short scene - we can only get some brief descriptions, whereas he experienced her abilities in full. It isn't a reason to believe this was a good decision on its own, but it does weigh in on the 'fighting was better' side of the scales for me.

And I guess we'll have to disagree about the effectiveness of her Divine Speech. When seeing just how much the Forebear had to expend himself to defeat her in a direct confrontation and told that 'her strength was dialogue', I can only conclude that even if he won the social confrontation, he would have had to pay a bigger price for it.
 
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