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A Simple Transaction I

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Wolfy said:
If Praxis is not better, we just save. It's as simple as that.
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Do you truly believe people will actually do that? If we get a chance to spend on Praxis there is a roughly 0% chance that we end up not spending on it, no matter what the options end up being. I'll bet you as many markers as you want on this.

And if we're not sure we even want to spend on Praxis, and it's very unlikely that there'll be any better options for our build than OaF, why pick Entrench? What does Entrench actually give us, apart from a chance to train the Praxis? 1 pick, some Forebear Lore and maybe an Artifact. Unless you're committed to spending on the Praxis, picking Entrench make no sense, and we shouldn't commit to spend on the Praxis, given that it's very unlikely to give us anything as synergistic with our build as OaF.
 
formalAI said:
Do you truly believe people will actually do that? If we get a chance to spend on Praxis there is a roughly 0% chance that we end up not spending on it, no matter what the options end up being. I'll bet you as many markers as you want on this.

And if we're not sure we even want to spend on Praxis, and it's very unlikely that there'll be any better options for our build than OaF, why pick Entrench? What does Entrench actually give us, apart from a chance to train the Praxis? 1 pick, some Forebear Lore and maybe an Artifact. Unless you're committed to spending on the Praxis, picking Entrench make no sense, and we shouldn't commit to spend on the Praxis, given that it's very unlikely to give us anything as synergistic with our build as OaF.
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Why can't it give us something as synergistic? Praxis is the greatest magic system we are likely to have access to anytime soon or perhaps ever, and is capable of almost any effect that sclaes all the way up. Hunger will almost certainly work for shit that has synergy with Rank or his build.
 
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formalAI said:
Do you truly believe people will actually do that? If we get a chance to spend on Praxis there is a roughly 0% chance that we end up not spending on it, no matter what the options end up being. I'll bet you as many markers as you want on this.
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Yeah, if we don't spend on Praxis, we'll have run out the Decimation timer for little gain. Even if the Praxis picks are worse than OaF, I will absolutely vote to grab them so we can stop killing people now.

Not that they'll be bad, of course, but there's no chance we won't go all-in if we Entrench.
 
Enohthree said:
ADS gives us 3 charisma, general autodefences, and the power to demoralize opponents at the cost of Guile Defeating Stance's +2 Rank and Ruin autodefences against manipulation and deception.

I'm not sure why it's being touted as a big game changer while we're scoping out the political scene first instead of fighting. It's absolutely amazing at fighting, but Scenic is about delaying exactly that first.
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Social combat is not only about Charisma. Wisdom, intelligence, luck etc all things help. +5 to all stats is frankly fucking amazing.
 
DkArthas said:
Social combat is not only about Charisma. Wisdom, intelligence, luck etc all things help. +5 to all stats is frankly fucking amazing.
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Though, it will be a shame to lose the +7(-5) Man and +2 Rank for Guile-Defeating. Maybe we should grab somebody and be like "Hey, why are you so shifty?" for a conversation right before we buy the whole thing. :p
 
Wolfy said:
If we get better options of course we will pick them. If Praxis is not better, we just save. It's as simple as that.
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The inventor of behavior economics won a Nobel prize for pointing out that it is not "as simple as that" even for decisions made by a regular person instead of a group-mind that operates via direct democracy.

As a matter of psychology, people are not able to completely re-evaluate their entire budget in real time. There are distortions like endowment effects, where a person's valuation of an object is inflated when they actually have that object in hand.

Even ignoring the behavioral aspect, the time-horizon of our quest is likely to pressure the thread into taking Praxis, even if it is less effective at countering Ber than OaF overall. Being able to survive Entrenchment in the Tower society might require it!
 
DkArthas said:
Why can't it give us something as synergistic?
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How could an option possibly be more synergistic with a Rank build than OaF? Pretty much the only way an option could be better for a Rank build is if it was a strictly better OaF, which I don't see happening. I just don't see Rihaku offering us an EFB which is just a strictly better version of another one, particularly an EFB as powerful as OaF.
 
Zampano said:
The inventor of behavior economics won a Nobel prize for pointing out that it is not "as simple as that" even for decisions made by a regular person instead of a group-mind that operates via direct democracy.

As a matter of psychology, people are not able to completely re-evaluate their entire budget in real time. There are distortions like endowment effects, where a person's valuation of an object is inflated when they actually have that object in hand.

Even ignoring the behavioral aspect, the time-horizon of our quest is likely to pressure the thread into taking Praxis, even if it is less effective at countering Ber than OaF overall. Being able to survive Entrenchment in the Tower society might require it!
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I agree with Zampano, but in smaller words! Praxis here, Praxis cool, tower here, Ber far! S P E N D I N G
 
Zampano said:
I'm announcing a limited time offer: In exchange for the low low price of 1 (tradable, no-veto) vote marker today, investors will receive 0.1 Tier 0 Zampano Vote Markers per (IRL) calendar day, for the next 14 (IRL) calendar days. Tier 0 Zampano Vote Markers are tradable and may be divided continuously (in as small of a fraction as you like).

To redeem a Tier 0 Zampano Vote marker you must possess a complete Tier 0 Zampano Vote Marker (i.e. one (1) entire Tier 0 Zampano Vote Marker).

One (1) Tier 0 Zampano Vote Marker can be used, without veto, to direct my vote for any build decision OR plot choice. In an update with a build vote and a plot vote, redeeming one Tier 0 Zampano Vote Marker would allow you to specify a build vote OR a plot vote.

Tier 0 Zampano Vote Markers can not direct me to vote against Philosopher's Wreath. Tier 0 Zampano Vote markers can be superseded by Zampano Vote Markers of Tier 1 and above. In the event that your Tier 0 Vote Marker is overrun by activation of another Vote Marker, you will retain possession of your Tier 0 Vote Marker.

Zampano Vote Markers of any Tier with positiveNon Negative integer value are not redeemable by Sharkey_smt or agents acting on behalf of Sharkey_smt. To take advantage of this investment opportunity, you must affirm that you are not Sharkey_smt, you are in no way affiliated to Sharkey_smt, you are not purchasing this item on behalf of Sharkey_smt or an associate of Sharkey_smt.
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Maybe this offer wasn't high enough. How about 0.2 vote markers per day?

That gives you a marker on Sunday, another marker on Thursday, and almost enough for a third marker if you make some additional trades, or pool resources with a friend..

Additional note: If multiple Tier 0 markers are activated for one vote, the first Marker to be activated is the one i'll honor. Everyone else will simply retain their marker.
 
formalAI said:
How could an option possibly be more synergistic with a Rank build than OaF? Pretty much the only way an option could be better for a Rank build is if it was a strictly better OaF, which I don't see happening. I just don't see Rihaku offering us an EFB which is just a strictly better version of another one, particularly an EFB as powerful as OaF.
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I mean it might be something that has synergy with Once and Future as well. Something that increases the potency of Rank itself perhaps?
 
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formalAI said:
How could an option possibly be more synergistic with a Rank build than OaF? Pretty much the only way an option could be better for a Rank build is if it was a strictly better OaF, which I don't see happening. I just don't see Rihaku offering us an EFB which is just a strictly better version of another one, particularly an EFB as powerful as OaF.
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Bruh, Refinement of Battle is literally better Threefold. Since yes, Praxis EFBs do blow the other options completely out of the water in their respective fields, why not for Rank? Thanks once again to @runeblue360 for putting this in his WOG repository:
Rihaku said:
Hm... the Accursed-boosted version of Accretion that Hunger possesses is arguably more powerful than the Noble Praxis in some ways, so it may not count as eligible! After all, Hunger can do anything as long as it's vaguely associated with his artifacts and the challenges he overcomes! What a completely broken mechanic!!
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Accretion with TSH is comparable to the Noble Praxis. Once and Future is an Accretion-based EFB. Therefore, if Royal Praxis is more power than Noble its EFB's also will be. So it is in fact better value to forget about Once and Future and take the Praxis EFB. Really wish I remembered this quote earlier to be honest.

So if you are worried what we will get won't be better than OaF, don't worry! It's very likely to be. So choose Entrench not only for max safety, but also max value! What a deal.
 
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BrainInAJar said:
Bruh, Refinement of Battle is literally better Threefold.
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It's not. RoB doesn't affect Agility, Wits or Charisma. Also, Threefold isn't even an EFB, it's a bonus that we got for completing a specific set of EFB.
BrainInAJar said:
Accretion with TSH is comparable to the Noble Praxis.
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The quote outright says that TSH is arguably better and thus might not be eligible for PW, because PW can't affect magic systems stronger than the Noble Praxis. Concluding from that that Accretion is comparable to the Noble Praxis and therefore any Accretion EFB must therefore be straight up worse than Sword Praxis EFBs is... I don't even have words.
 
formalAI said:
The quote outright says that TSH is arguably better and thus might not be eligible for PW, because PW can't affect magic systems stronger than the Noble Praxis. Concluding from that that Accretion is comparable to the Noble Praxis and therefore any Accretion EFB must therefore be straight up worse than Sword Praxis EFBs is... I don't even have words.
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It's "Arguably better" in "some ways". That's hardly a strong statement of superiority. I seem to remember that there was comparison somewhere between the Noble and Royal Praxis to Terrestrial and Celestial Exalts, but I can't find it. However, given the lack of strength in that quote I do believe that Royal Praxis is in fact significantly better than Accretion, if even the Noble Praxis is better than it in some ways. Therefore, we shouldn't pass up the opportunity for an Praxis EFB.
 
Tyrant_Rayne said:
[X] The Scenic Route
[X] Save

Back to the original plan.
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Scenic & Save is a mediocre combination. If you want to save, Scenic Route loses a lot of its value in terms of plot payoffs
Rihaku said:
It looks like the Scenic Route and Save are somewhat in the lead at the moment... while this isn't a disastrous combination, you'd definitely be giving up some potential gains compared to Scenic Route + All-Defeating! If Hunger is going to engage in social combat himself, best to ensure he's got those extra Mental and Social stats with which to fully capitalize on such.
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Zampano said:
Scenic & Save is a mediocre combination. If you want to save, Scenic Route loses a lot of its value in terms of plot payoffs
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On the other hand, there's fair odds of finding artifacts, and if the Evening Sky is any measure, we'd have to pay Arete for them. It'd be wise to save, either for OaF as planned, or for a juicy artifact to add to our Panoply.
 
ReaderOfFate said:
On the other hand, there's fair odds of finding artifacts, and if the Evening Sky is any measure, we'd have to pay Arete for them. It'd be wise to save, either for OaF as planned, or for a juicy artifact to add to our Panoply.
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Evening sky only cost 7 Arete. If we see something worth taking when we are out of Arete, we can push for it. But it seems like the odds of the thread going for an artifact before OaF + ADS come online seem... slim.
 
BrainInAJar said:
Royal Praxis is in fact significantly better than Accretion
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The Royal Praxis is a stronger magic system than Accretion, but not because it's more efficient on a per Arete basis. The Royal Praxis can scale all the way up to effects which are relevant to the Accursed, while Accretion cannot. The Royal Praxis can also produce effects which seem very difficult, if not impossible, to get from Accretion. Look at RoQ or Thorn or Cold Light of Vengeance. Have we seen any effects from Accretion that can do things like that?

But that doesn't mean that Arete spent on Accretion are inherently less efficient than Arete spent on the Royal Praxis. Look at Surgecraft. That's obviously a magic system far less powerful than Accretion. It's way less flexible, doesn't give you Rank, unless you have an element like Fairbright, and almost certainly doesn't scale as high as Accretion does. Does that mean that the Arete that we spent on getting the 7 Arete version of Edeldross were wasted and that we would have been better off spending it on Accretion, because Accretion is stronger? Obviously not! That's not how it works at all!

Magic system A being more powerful than magic system B does not imply that spending Arete on B is fundamentally a waste and that it's inherently going to provide less benefit than investing the same amount of Arete on A.
 
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Going for an artifact right now also seems a bit foolish. Even EFB tier artifacts start out relatively weak from the look of it and need further advancements to pay off. They are more of potential than power thing with Accretion.
 
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