[X] Intervention Mk. I
[X] The Walls of Myth
[X] Towards Stranglethorn

You know what I had the right idea with my first post. I want OaF done with. Being safe from Ber would allow us to take more potential and mage options. We would be stronger with crown and OaF but I doubt we have the ability to save for that. If we're not taking crown I don't see the point in be the change. Also I'd rather not risk Decimator being up for even a single day. That's the sort of thing apocryphal would use against us. For those choosing be the change I would recommend picking the tower itself to avoid this scenario.
 
Honestly a part of my favoring Crown is the old poem. We already have Blade, Mantle, and Ring.

Now let's get the fests of Crown, Saber, and Orb!
 
No effort yields no explicit rewards, but the time saved may well save lives, if the Tower of Sky proves tricky to topple and the Affliction reactivates. OOC this avoids devoting word-count to a tangent voters may not be very invested in, and it's not as if Hunger would be leaving the Sovereignty on a sour note. While institutional change would be trickier to effect after a new status quo's settled into place in the wake of the Rotbeast crisis, he'd retain a lot of soft power and would no doubt receive a warm welcome if he returned... though laissez-faire winning means it's unlikely he will.
[ ] Intervention Mk. I
The middle of the road option. From a metagaming standpoint this is an appealing one, it gives us an additional sidequest to resolve before breaking camp and making for the Tower. Not just more time to generate Arete, it comes with a free point, another step on the long road to Once and Future. We create a dynasty that's personally indebted to us, potentially allowing Hunger to call on the Sovereignty's resources in the future while not assuming the responsibility inherent in Being the Change. What's not to like? Well, we've never met Aeira's family for one, we know only what she's told us of them. The skills needed to extricate themselves from the quicksand of debt aren't necessarily those needed to run a nation.

Do they even want the job, if the alternative of Hunger sending the Sovereignty's shotcallers a strongly-worded memo about debt forgiveness is on the table? Aeira's ancestors had a history of mismanagement and her parents were okay with their daughter turning mercenary with only moderate persuasion required! Also, Hunger would be creating a noble dynasty that (with Ennoblement) is both longer-lived and objectively more competent than their competitors. If Aeira dies, her family could be a thorn in his side with some Apocryphal assistance. On the other hand, we'd get to make the Shadowcord Shogunate meme a reality...
They asked for him to be their King. As the saying goes, be careful what you wish for. The promise of Dread but Dreaming was a society aligned with the Hero's ideals and at long last, Democracy Cthulhu has risen from sunken R'lyeh to bend the world to his will. The utility of an army of Surgecrafters is immense, and with the Rotbeast's malignant pall no longer cast over the Elixir Springs they may not be looking at a six-decade deadline. With the Temple controlled through Sten (and technically Larissa, though I can only imagine her reaction to Hunger post-Silver of Evening) and Hunger as the newly-minted Sovereign, we'd be collecting Voyaging kingdoms. Hell, we could conquer the lands of Myth and try for Feat: Hat Trick, planting the seeds of a unified Voyaging Realm and potentially a platform to launch our conquest of the Human Sphere from.

Though as ever, the threat of reprisals for extraction looms large. If trying to use these nations to pursue our actual goal here triggers an apocalypse, what's the point? We'd need to understand the Realms and what exactly an 'Outer Halo' does first. If we're lucky there's a button to invoke Praehihr privilege gathering dust somewhere, but the last time we tried flashing our Cursebearer credentials it didn't work out so well. Still, Be the Change could provide ablative Apocryphal armor? On the other hand, it potentially provides ablative Apocryphal armor. Regardless of the reforms Hunger implements, after factoring in Curse procs can we expect this to be good for the Sovereignty on balance?

On paper it's aligned with his values already - justice for all, freedom from tyranny - which is what makes a three day blitz of reforms even remotely possible. But pursuing the national interest inevitably leads to governments growing secrets. It would be nice to do right by Mizuku. His case'd even be a useful example and starting point. He said he was fine being used for propaganda in his interlude? We're happy to oblige. He can tell Hunger who was involved in threatening his family and we can root out the corruption from there. Exert Pressure, offer plea bargains with a prison sentence/a lifetime ban on holding public office, promising politicians their lives in exchange for names.

Also, as the Elixir Sovereign? We'd have the authority to give the polity back to its parent Empire if we wanted to, parlaying the position into a bargaining chip or opportunity to bolster House Artriez's standing. Bit of a dick move, but such is a Tyrant's prerogative. We could even make Surgecrafting's true name official!
[ ] The Walls of Myth
If we're taking either laissez-faire or Mk. I, this is a no-brainer. We chose the Tower, so we should try to fully exploit the opportunities it offers. Running into the Temple blindly nearly got us killed in the first fight, and in hindsight I Am The Danger's bonus wasn't as valuable as the more prosaic 'knowing what the fuck we're facing' bonus. Who knows, studying how the Walls of Myth sever their interior from the Voyaging Realm might even yield the ability to extract Aobaru and Aeira without complications? We did spend 7 Arete on the former, imagine how close we'd be to Once and Future had we just saved it... Anyway, even one of the promised trifecta of magics, artifacts, and ancient DEEP LORE would make this detour worth it. Would you rather spend three days politicking or unraveling the secrets of the Foremost? For me, it's not even a question.
[ ] The Tower Itself
In theory, we can always examine the Walls on the way back unless for some reason they fall with the Tower. I Am The Danger is a potent buff, a 10% improvement applied to all actions. Though as the Temple taught us it's a mindset bonus that can be decreased or even lost, so it incentivizes future recklessness to maintain it. I can see this working if we take Honing and improve Hunger's ability to improvise successful strategies on the fly? Who needs prep time with a team like this, just figure shit out on the fly and rake in the resulting picks. Still: confident, cocky, lazy, dead.
[ ] Towards Stranglethorn
We're supposed to be saving Arete, this doesn't cost any. Any questions? If you need more reasons, getting Stranglethorn early also boosts future Rank gains by 20%. An invaluable boon since for some Accursed-forsaken reason Core Panoply won on the back of its Rank gains, committing us to a Rank build. If two picks is halfway to Stranglethorn, then it stands to reason that we'll get our third Defining Advancement before we lay eyes on the Tower. If we ever start timeskipping, Establishment can provide effective Apocryphal mitigation.

Stranglethorn's other virtues are numerous and have been expounded on at length in previous build votes, but to reiterate: it doubles our Strength, Constitution, and Willpower. The former scales with the Power of Ruin, Uttermost converts the latter into Might & Agility, mitigating the -20% Agility downside which is now doubly irrelevant because we took Silver of Evening and have Edeldross. It's really good and we should commit to it now, because otherwise we're going to spend Arete on something shinier.
[ ] Honing (2 Arete)
Another strong choice for saving, this is the capstone of the Fierce Quickening tech tree. More like a tech shrubbery given its height, but we took Vigor Incarnate back when fomenting rebellion against the Inners. Taking its counterpart will unlock future Blood Advancements, which have historically been great for saving because they offer so much value for so little Arete. Shame about that pesky visual glitch where you can sometimes see stats with three times their baseline value, eh?
[ ] The Ring of Power - Pitiless Maw (7 Arete)
With Chief Dominion and Crimson Flare, Hunger's already got self-healing covered, but tripling the Power of Ruin with All-Defeating Stance on the horizon is immensely synergistic. The lifesteal's convenient too, that it's limited to melee range is less of a problem since Hunger spams blade projections like they're going out of style. He's hard to kill, but with the risks we regularly vote to undertake there's no such thing as too much survivability. Pitiless Maw even comes with a complimentary Echo! But the Arete cost is prohibitive, I'd rather get this after All-Defeating so the synergies are guaranteed rather than relying on the thread's whims. It's easier to save 7 Arete than 14.
[ ] Feat: Crown (12 Arete)
Meet the new Trinity, same as the old Trinity. If we complete Crown, Saber, and Orb do we move on to Shield, Symbol, and Sword? Is there a bonus for attaining all nine? Who am I kidding, of course there is, that's the way this works. There's always a bigger fish powerup; what you thought were the limits of possibility recede as your perspective expands. Narratively I can see Be the Change's appeal, though part of me is busy dying inside at being offered a full half-Rank soon after so many Core Panoply voters touted its 0.6 as an irreplaceable bonus. Would reforming the Sovereignty offer more, if APK or Threefold had won?

Anyway, an effective Blood Rank of ~9 if we can achieve the full bonus is amazing, but Once and Future offers a better Arete-to-Rank exchange rate for military matters. It's almost twice as good as Crown's even after accounting for OaF not stacking with Hero-Defeating Stance (1.8/23 = 0.0783 per point vs. 0.5/12 = 0.0417). External Rank is better than base Rank, since its value improves as we get more. Also, consider that OaF comes with Forebear lore, a prospect so much more appealing than politics that no amount of hyperbole can generate an appropriate analogy.

1613 words of vote analysis, index update forthcoming as soon as I make coffee.

I'm considering selling my vote this update! Those who already owe me one may purchase a second vote at the cost of their veto and their word that this marker will override any others (refunding competing creditors, of course); everyone else is welcome to make me an offer.
 
That probably won't be enough, especially if the lemmings vote to spend all their Arete on internal Rank instead of the EFB explicitly noted to be sufficient to win.
I prefer to use the term boosted bonobos, but that is just me.

Also I want to spend Arete on Crown so there will be no Arete left to buy tempting magic systems. When dealing with Rihaku quest you have to manage the other voters who lust after your (and it it is yours by divine right) Arete
 
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I'm considering selling my vote this update! Those who already owe me one may purchase a second vote at the cost of their veto and their word that this marker will override any others (refunding competing creditors, of course); everyone else is welcome to make me an offer.
I'll bite, if you value my markers.
 
I'm considering selling my vote this update! Those who already owe me one may purchase a second vote at the cost of their veto and their word that this marker will override any others (refunding competing creditors, of course); everyone else is welcome to make me an offer.

I see that the major thread players have committed wholeheartedly to the vote market, impressive. Also, it's interesting to see Orm Embar hustling for all these vote markers... what fell bargain in the future does this magus intend to strike in exchange for his cooperation in the present?!

Aabcehmu also seems to be going deeply into voting debt which concerns me, lol.
 
Meet the new Trinity, same as the old Trinity. If we complete Crown, Saber, and Orb do we move on to Shield, Symbol, and Sword? Is there a bonus for attaining all nine? Who am I kidding, of course there is, that's the way this works. There's always a bigger fish powerup; what you thought were the limits of possibility recede as your perspective expands. Narratively I can see Be the Change's appeal, though part of me is busy dying inside at being offered a full half-Rank soon after so many Core Panoply voters touted its 0.6 as an irreplaceable bonus. Would reforming the Sovereignty offer more, if APK or Threefold had won?
Perhaps if Threefold had won, the Tyrannity would have started with the Saber's overwhelming power. In a similar vein A Promise Kept's destiny may have led directly into the Orb, symbol of universal dominion.
 
Will sell my vote on a 1 to 2 basis, with the qualification that I never really bother to vote here so you're probably better off selling two of your votes for one of mine.
 
I suspect there will come a day when a vote appears, and people will be too busy selling their votes to actually vote.

[X] Intervention Mk. I
[X] The Walls of Myth
[X] Towards Stranglethorn

OaF. So close you can taste it!
 
[X] Be the Change
[X] The Walls of Myth
[X] Towards Stranglethorn

Crown is a 12 Arete 3 pick option, and while there's a realistic chance we won't ever see it again (given that it will be competing with other 3 picks like Dreadnought and Inheritor), Stranglethorn is just much better to work towards. It increases the value of all Rank +s by 20%, which would pump up our rank gain from Crown to a solid .55 gain! Beyond that, boosts to Willpower and other stats make a hybrid build comparatively more potent.
 
Is this... the Refinement of Debt!?
The Imperial Debt - the most powerful vote marker. Once called the marker takes control of all other lesser markers and can use them towards his own purposes. Only Rihaku can initiate people into the Imperial Debt as it is the symbol of unfairness and exploitation.

A dream of unfairness, defiant against an uncaring thread. And with enough votes, in time, to force the thread to care.
 
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Interesting discord facts, general channel only:

139,015 message(s)
981,849 words (and counting).

The file is 10mb on my computer.
 
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Looks like we're seeing a small turn towards non-Crown options, though Crown remains very much in the lead! On the other hand, it has a sick blurb and the potential for immense Rank-based power in the future! Still, should you guys really be so gung-ho about the Walls of Myth when Be the Change is so far ahead? It may hurt to lose this detour but time is of the essence when dealing with the Decimator's Affliction, and a +10% effectiveness boost would be really nice...

Assuming you don't destroy everything (a not entirely safe assumption), you can always stop by the Walls on your way back!
 
Anyone got any boring cool ideas for government reform?
How does government even work tho. I mean, I sort of know the answer from education/experience, but I couldn't design one from the ground up based on particular circumstances. Wikipedia, please save me.

Okay, for one thing, the Elixir Sovereignty is going to have to change their name to, like, the Elixir Protectorate. I joke, but also kinda not because that's an honest telling of what would be happening.

And fortunately, we don't have to decide how to govern from nothing. Setting aside the currently existing power structures, Hunger comes with inbuilt preferences so we don't have to argue about them.
Freedom, Justice, Truth. In time, democracy. A society with the power and wherewithal to be organized around its highest ideals, rather than brute necessity. It is what they would have wanted - and if he no longer wields a hero's strength, still he has a hero's influence.
I see... a bit of a snag already, with the "Sovereignty" thing. From context, Hunger's freedom is freedom of individuals and not of polities, so that's not a conflict, but "the society's highest ideals" blatantly include telling the Empire to fuck off on even the most cursory reading, in this case. Mizuku was pissed that they wouldn't knuckle under even with a fig leaf of supervision for protection, and then Hunger trades protection for the crown. Hunger will set things up to run without him, of course, but according to Mizuku that's not actually different. And Hunger is also aggressively expansionist, technically, because if nothing else he's going after the entire Human Sphere at some point.

Not that we can't work through most of this. We'll have to research/inquire on the specific grievances the Sovereignty had against the Empire to ensure that we incorporate protections against them into the new state.

I'm sure, if we pick Change as we overwhelmingly are, we'll get a closer look at Hunger's ideals, but "Freedom, Justice, Truth, Democracy" is a good start for planning. And we'll have to keep in mind the next bit as well- creating a government is an immense undertaking, which generally requires a lot of "brute necessity" - Hunger would prefer to minimize compromises with reality. He doesn't ask for much, huh. Let's take it one by one.

Freedom. Some argue that the best way for government to ensure freedom is for it to not exist. I disagree, but fortunately my opinion on this doesn't matter because Hunger is making a government, so we don't have to argue about that point. :p

It's incredibly murky, but we're lucky to have a great example of not freedom to start with. The "soft conscription" policy has to go. Surgecrafters should be free to use their abilities in non-harmful ways without incredible artificial social pressure to enlist in the military.

This entails a revision to the curriculum of Elixir High and other schools, assuming Mizuku is correct that the teaching is censored. There can be no freedom of choice without freedom of information. (Lmao, that must have subconsciously come from something I read, no way I came up with that on my own.)

Beyond basic things, I think we'll have to come back to "freedom" later, because it can only really be understood in balance. After all, a person with total freedom... I think we call such a person a "Tyrant."

Spoiler: Projectile does not come back to freedom later in this post, because even after talking about everything else coming up with a good definition is a bit of a head scratcher.

Justice. I remember two types of justice from philosophy class- which I was proud of, until Google told me there were four! Oh, wait, you can have it both ways, or 8 according to Stanford Encyclopedia because justice is also complicated.

Distributive Justice is who gets what in society. Everyone intuitively understands this, see the three year old that cries about unfairness when their sibling gets a treat and they don't. Being that that's the case, you'd think we'd have a fairer society lol.

There's a Surgecrafting elephant in the room, here, because some people get to be wizards and other people don't. The generational component of this, I don't think we can do much about in a few days. However, the oligopoly on the natural resources of the Elixir Springs would have to go. Nationalize the Kaguya for great justice. Ugh, I have a headache just thinking about it.

Then we're arguably dropping another injustice on top, with Ennobling. Some people are just better than others, because Hunger's friends like them. One way to minimize the cognitive dissonance on this one would be to tie Ennoblement to specific positions rather than people, but that would entail work on Hunger's part. The better way would be to Ennoble everyone. Time burns, but we can always come back and do it after the Tower, I think. That would solve the problem wonderfully, at least until immigration becomes a concern. We could... set a national Ennobling holiday where we Ennoble newcomers? That's a longer-term issue anyway.

Corrective Justice involves reacting when one person harms another. How is the latter recompensed, and is/how is the former punished? I'm not a huge fan of punishing people for its own sake, but I didn't, uh, devote my eternal life to Vengeance so I suspect Hunger might disagree. Or not, if he accepts that he's acting against justice in this instance, I suppose.

There's the gigantic "you know, we can't reliably deal with hypothetical uncooperative Surgecrafters" issue. And I can't sincerely propose anything police related atm without my head exploding from cognitive dissonance, so I'll pass on this one.

Other thoughts... ah, justice should be for everyone, not just citizens, not just humans. Enshrine that somewhere.

Truth. This one is pretty simple, if we throw out all practical concerns. Heh.

I already said freedom of information was Cool and Good, so that's a nice start. Transparency in government is an idea. But I'm not sure how to guarantee that other than by telling people to not be naughty, or the Reckoner will bring a reckoning (that's a pretty good idea tho, he's scary). Supernaturally talented corruption-busters other than the big H would also be nice, but who watches the watchers? Hunger's superpowers do, once we get Lunar Coronet. But then what ensures Hunger's goodness? How dare you question the perfection of the Great Leader, I believe is the correct response. Yeah, uh. Actually, if we could set up a source of corruption-sniffing power tied to the ideal rather than any individual, that'd be pretty goddamn fantastic. Could a Grace bring that about eventually? Or Artifice/Mind dominions, or even the unsurfaced Truth. I must remember that lots of these mundane problems could have supernatural solutions. There might be an appropriate Soul Evocation, if we reach that level of interaction between our nations (lul).

Cameras for everyone (in public, freedom of privacy natch)? With an AI or something to actually make sense of the data, ain't nobody got time for that.

Hunger likes science in the way that I like science, which is with 100% fervor up until the point where I actually have to grind it out. But obviously it's an immense societal good, which is what we care about here. Aeira already wrote a textbook, she's such a good citizen! Throw $$$ in the direction of learning stuff, and make the grant process less horrendous than the one I had to deal with. Ennobling people would help as well. For the more difficult cultural issue... eh, if Hunger proclaims his priorities, sets an example, and waits for a bit, Cha should help a lot, the details are finicky anyway.

There's also the share of information between different cultures to consider. In keeping with the ideal, the Sovereignty should share their knowhow with anyone who asks... maybe not all the gun stuff, or the boom wizard stuff, as a concession to practicality. And they should eagerly seek out partners who are willing to return the favor. Though that might mean they should be more cagey about their own stuff, for greater knowledge transmission? How convoluted.

Forget everything I say, though, if Hunger does not consult the Azure Ring of Truth on how to best actualize his ideal of Truth he deserves a Ber to the face.

Democracy. Is there a technological solution in this sci-fi land that would make direct democracy practical? That would cleave most tightly to the ideal, at the risk of people being bombarded with things they don't care about.

Ennobling representatives sorta kinda completely misses the point of "representative" if the rest of the population isn't- more reason to give everyone superpowers, I think.

Who gets a vote? Sovereign Citizens (lol) or anyone who live- wait, first we'd have to decide citizenship requirements. Do we really need them? If you happen to be in the area you get a v- wait, no, it's a tourist trap so maybe not. A certain period of time?

Democracy can be fucked with, so blaring Truth around would be a nice counter to misinformation, if we're to focus on that anyway. Our supernatural... not-secret not-police should stop on shenanigans.

We just gotta ignore the whole "Crown" thing for this one, alright. Hunger's the King of the Elixir Democracy, if you question it too much it'll disappear in a puff of logic. I guess... this portion of Hungertopia, which is overall autocratic, is democratic. Yeah, that's not necessarily contradictory, let's go with that.

Other Sovereignty Ideals. "Fuck the Empire" not included. In the interests of democracy and truth and common sense, we should just ask people what they believe their societies ideals to be, and then implement them as best we can. But since I can't do that, I'll just guess for now. "Heroism" seems to be one- but that's kinda awkward, since that was a concerted effort by the government to turn teenagers into cannon fodder. But heroism itself isn't bad, and Hunger is turboheroic and he's spreading his memes all over the place, I don't think its going away.

A society based around heroism... I've heard that before, it's orcs and that's terrible. Gotta temper your "heroism" with "justice" and "be sure you're actually helping people and not just feeding your ego or bloodlust or pocket" to stop that going bad places. Emphasize non-martial heroism? Hunger's not the best man for that job, but it's an idea.

Is tourism an ideal or a practicality? "Welcoming to strangers" is hardly a bad thing, regardless.

Health, that's a good one, and it combines well with the other ideals. They've got a good opportunity to capitalize on the Springs, to share the benefits and insights from those as well (teehee) as possible, if they want to go that route.

The Broader Hungry Empire. Currently limited to the Temple, but even that much gave me a realization; we have some freedom to experiment here. The Temple's current government is a divinely-chosen aristocracy following a mandate of "be nice, give utopia pls", because we did a hack job because screw torturers. Quite different from the democracy Hunger plans for this one. Buut they still both answer to us, and under that framework, if any of our government experiments veer off into crazytown the existence of other Hungry Provinces should keep them in check. And while the exact government may vary due to circumstances and Hunger's whims, if we instill the same ideals in each then they could learn from each other what methods do and do not approach them. Eventually, we should perhaps set up a formal shell to contain these entities- you know, if we keep on conquering places, which we may or may not do.

That's more long-term, right now we should just set up trade. Particularly food going towards the Temple, that's the urgent issue. The tech disparity will cause upheaval... but they should be used to that by now, oof. I'm not eager to accelerate the process of them coming together, I think. Food shipments, possibly a promise of military aid in emergencies, and then let it be.

I'm 30% irritated and 70% amused that this plan has Sten thinking Hunger's actions were a masterful Ring-lord keikaku rather than events evolving in a particular way. :s

"Now Projectile," you might say, "you've written a lot about ideals, and a few specific policies, but this isn't nearly enough to run a government."

My response to that is simple. I have no gosh darned idea what I'm doing, somebody get a polisci major up in here.

2048 Words of pre-government brainstorming. Actually more coherent than expected.
 
*wasn't here for a few days and sees how he missed the fish vote

Oh God damn it! I wanted to vote for the fish!

*sees the current vote

Do you guys want to burn down a Civilization? I don't, especially unintentionally.

[X] Intervention Mk. I
[X] The Walls of Myth
[X] Towards Stranglethorn
 
Your GPT powers have grown twice since the last time we met.
At least try to not make it obvious, word count that is power of two is way too easy to spot
Huh. It might be interesting to feed reaction posts to the AI overlord, if only so I can cringe at all my blatant habits. My excessive adverbing would get shoved in my face, for sure. And softening my opinions with "I think" far too often, I think. And I try to keep ellipses down, but sometimes they slip through...

*pushes up his glasses*
 
Interesting discord facts, general channel only:

139,015 message(s)
981,849 words (and counting).

The file is 10mb on my computer.

I haven't checked but if you include the other channels (media, foremost, age, and treachery) we've definitely hit a million words. Which is... something. I feel like we deserve either a reward or a punishment for that.

Sharkey you should train your GPT on the discord.
 
[X] Intervention Mk. I
[X] The Tower Itself
[X] Towards Stranglethorn

Urg, didn't think about how much I hate civ quests, Pass.
 
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