Damn. I realized something about Hunger Sated and the 7 Arete option I didn't before. Initially I read it as a 25% Decimator's Mitigation for 2 years. It's not. It's complete cessation of the Curse for 2 years with a mystery box, at the cost of a 25% penalty to Hunger Growth. That is awesome and if we somehow reach 7 Arete we should take it.

Tally incoming, it's unconsolidated at the moment, be advised.
Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on May 25, 2020 at 3:28 AM, finished with 188 posts and 32 votes.

  • [X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Fell-Handed Stroke
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
    -[X] 2 Arete: Undying Echo
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Fell-Handed Stroke
    [X] Hunger - Sleep of the Just
    -[X] 2 Arete: Slumber of Aeons
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Fell-Handed Stroke
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear - Cloud-shadow of the Forebear's might. Legendary strength and speed, and the resilience to exert them. Can be taken multiple times. [+Might, +Agility]
    [X] 2 Arete: Sword That Was Stolen - King of Thieves - It is the prerogative of the hero true to take the implements of his enemy and turn them against him. For what righteous weapon could deny the verity of his cause, or the valor with which he pursued it?
    [X] 2 Arete: Sword That Was Stolen - King of Thieves - It is the prerogative of the hero true to take the implements of his enemy and turn them against him. For what righteous weapon could deny the verity of his cause, or the valor with which he pursued it?
    [X] Hunger - Sleep of the Just - While sleeping, the character is massively more difficult to harm or physically move, and may choose to deny interruptions to his slumber, allowing his body to be used as a potent shield.
    -[X] 2 Arete: Slumber of Aeons - Increases well-rested threshold to 10 hours per day, but hours of sleep can now be banked up to a month in advance. Dramatically increases strength gained with age.
    [X] 2 Arete: Sword That Was Stolen - King of Thieves - It is the prerogative of the hero true to take the implements of his enemy and turn them against him. For what righteous weapon could deny the verity of his cause, or the valor with which he pursued it?
    [X] Hunger - Sleep of the Just - While sleeping, the character is massively more difficult to harm or physically move, and may choose to deny interruptions to his slumber, allowing his body to be used as a potent shield.
    [X] Hunger - Sleep of the Just
    -[X] 2 Arete: Slumber of Aeons
    [X] Hunger - Sleep of the Just
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Fell-Handed Stroke
    [X] 2 Arete: Sword That Was Stolen - King of Thieves
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Fell-Handed Stroke
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
    -[X] 2 Arete: Undying Echo
    [X] Hunger - Sleep of the Just
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
    [X] Hunger - Sleep of the Just
 
Our choices in EFB would have been significantly different if we had the ability to 'go back' and then upgrade an option with more BP. We'd probably have advanced way faster, to begin with. Plus even in EFB we ended up selecting a lot of 1-BP options early in the game. I think our first EFB was Daoless, actually. After we already achieved Titanic-level power.
Our early game in EFB was completely carried by a couple of FBs. Here, too, saving a 7APs should be the most efficient way to go.
 
Hmm, King of Thieves and Fell-Handed Strike sounds interesting. But not so interesting as this combination someone suggested!

[X] Forebear's Blade - Fell-Handed Stroke
[X] Hunger - Sleep of the Just
-[X] 2 Arete: Slumber of Aeons


There's normal stealth, there's Malfean Stealth, and then there's this. Getting used as a shield and thrown at enemies to confuse and disorient them and then waking up all of a sudden for a SURPRISE FELLHAND is an idea that would never occur to me, but now I can't get it out of my mind.
 
EFB BP/Build Votes expenditure notes:
Final Scion (Max Potential + Safety) -> Just as Planned (More potential) -> Stars are Right + FB Ring (Maximum Potential) + B. Quickening -> FB Forge + B Ego -> B Potentiation -> B. Cerebation* + B.Amplification + B.Might -> Titanomachy

So that's like 12 BP spent before hitting Titan level power. No EFB in sight.

After this we went for Beyond Vault. 13 BP. Subsequently, Daoless. Then Truth. Then, because this is EFB and we are Thrice-Great, we decided to also EFB the Vault. Several updates and 1 hiatus later, Tyranshal's Distillation. (That's 4 EFBs back to back woot)

*We used this like one single time in the game, and didn't even use the datum T_T. We should have at least aimed out at the Fates and/or Zang Kong damit!

So the pattern if we were to apply our behavior from the previous thread, is: Grab low-cost Arete options early and often to secure our power, then once we are secure, store up for EFB or 25 Arete options. And string them up next to each other. Once you start EFB'ing you don't stop. But before that, make sure you're alive. Heck, Nameless had literal plot armor for nearly the whole game and took virtually no risks. We have no plot armor and we have to take risks to advance.
 
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Our early game in EFB was completely carried by a couple of FBs. Here, too, saving a 7APs should be the most efficient way to go.

Depends how badly injured you get in the course of saving 7 Arete! Assuming you survive to that point. Why not spend some Arete now to improve your odds substantially?

You're under the Apocryphal Curse, there's literally nothing that could be thrown at you and be unfair!
 
Due to the mess where I can never feel certain whether or not plan tallies are actually consolidated properly for some reason, I'm going for a raw option popularity tally now. Incoming
Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on May 25, 2020 at 3:38 AM, finished with 193 posts and 33 votes.
 
I'm curious Rihaku, has there ever been a build in any of your quests where you are just wondering, "what are these guys thinking?". I'm pretty sure your thinking is to try and balance them all these build votes there have been some that you put in knowing that they are a little too good or too weak.

A example I think of is in EFB. As good as Thrice Great was, and it was obviously good to add scaling, I think the unsung hero was Young Master. Was there a dice roll involved for what family we were born into, because if so we crit it there. The Safety, Base Stats, and Training options it added were just so good.

Or if not a build that you thought was good, then a build you were hoping would win so you could write it. Maybe you were salivating at the thought of Master of Circumstance Nameless for the epic board game scenes?
 
I'm curious Rihaku, has there ever been a build in any of your quests where you are just wondering, "what are these guys thinking?". I'm pretty sure your thinking is to try and balance them all these build votes there have been some that you put in knowing that they are a little too good or too weak.

A example I think of is in EFB. As good as Thrice Great was, and it was obviously good to add scaling, I think the unsung hero was Young Master. Was there a dice roll involved for what family we were born into, because if so we crit it there. The Safety, Base Stats, and Training options it added were just so good.

Or if not a build that you thought was good, then a build you were hoping would win so you could write it. Maybe you were salivating at the thought of Master of Circumstance Nameless for the epic board game scenes?
I think Rihaku mentioned that the build they would have gone if Cursebearer was not available would have been Final Scion, but adding Trebly Bound and subtracting Heroic Passions. With what we know now, it's basically a free 0.5 stage from being a half-elf as well as free support from the Elven State. With their glorious artificing/naturalism boosts. And probably way better diagram knowledge.

(Seriously, Thriseal what the hell)
 
Is the next iteration of Hunger going to be something like

[] Hunger - One Eye Open - The character's subconscious becomes more active. He can fall asleep on command while maintaining a level of awareness of his surroundings and reawaken at will.

The resulting combat style would be so rad.
 
Anyone want to speculate on what the mystery box for Arete enhanced hunger sated might be? Life Drain touch attack? An analogue to Miroku's wind tunnel from Inuyasha?
 
Depends how badly injured you get in the course of saving 7 Arete! Assuming you survive to that point. Why not spend some Arete now to improve your odds substantially?

You're under the Apocryphal Curse, there's literally nothing that could be thrown at you and be unfair!
Because we will be stronger for one or two updates(depending on Arete generation) and then weaker afterwards? This comes up with any "why don't you pick short term option" question. It's a very simple risk/reward calculation. Taking the reward earlier means less risk now, but more risk later.
EFB BP/Build Votes expenditure notes:
Final Scion (Max Potential + Safety) -> Just as Planned (More potential) -> Stars are Right + FB Ring (Maximum Potential) + B. Quickening -> FB Forge + B Ego -> B Potentiation -> B. Cerebation* + B.Amplification + B.Might -> Titanomachy

So that's like 12 BP spent before hitting Titan level power. No EFB in sight.

After this we went for Beyond Vault. 13 BP. Subsequently, Daoless. Then Truth. Then, because this is EFB and we are Thrice-Great, we decided to also EFB the Vault. Several updates and 1 hiatus later, Tyranshal's Distillation. (That's 4 EFBs back to back woot)

*We used this like one single time in the game, and didn't even use the datum T_T. We should have at least aimed out at the Fates and/or Zang Kong damit!

So the pattern if we were to apply our behavior from the previous thread, is: Grab low-cost Arete options early and often to secure our power, then once we are secure, store up for EFB or 25 Arete options. And string them up next to each other. Once you start EFB'ing you don't stop. But before that, make sure you're alive. Heck, Nameless had literal plot armor for nearly the whole game and took virtually no risks. We have no plot armor and we have to take risks to advance.
And the thing we learned from all these power expenditures is that spending 1BP is generally not worth it compared to spending 3BPs, which is explicitly the case here. Again, we were completely carried by FB Ring doubling effects of BPs and Forge allowing us to make supercharged Artifacts.

Right now baseline options give us more than enough to power through. Unless you have some specific plan to extract more value with additional investment, which you don't, spending right now is just pissing away valuable resource.
 
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Anyone want to speculate on what the mystery box for Arete enhanced hunger sated might be? Life Drain touch attack? An analogue to Miroku's wind tunnel from Inuyasha?
Ending this particular plotline that Apocryphal can use against us, possibly. I suspect it will augment our ability to end stories, judging by the name 'Queller' and 'Conlusion'.
 
More for the warchest. And now to sleep.


A good summation of what the Apocryphal entails. The life of a worthy protagonist is always eventful, their stories filled with struggle and suffering. No matter how much they might want to, they can't just fuck off into a cave somewhere and train until they're ready. The only true and lasting peace they will know is at the end of their stories, in an idyllic happily ever after or the silence of their grave.

But Cursebearer's don't get the former, not with the Apocryphal. There will always be another challenge to overcome, another hurdle to climb. Battle without limit or surcease. On and on, never knowing rest until their Curse has been lifted after countless aeons or they die in the attempt. In that light, Odyssial truly is the end of stories.

After all when he's free, everyone will get their happily ever after.

They traveled by means of the Armament, himself and Gisena either riding in the cockpit or perched somewhere atop its towering shoulders. The going was slow, the way uncertain, and Letrizia frequently had to adjust their route to account for distortions of space. There was no science in Verschlengorge's perusal of the Voyaging Realm, only instinct, which its pilot could only vaguely feel. And yet it was a pleasant enough journey, when they were not beset by monsters from outside realms. They rarely encountered ill weather, and could shelter under Verschlengorge until rain or oppressive shine had passed.

The more I hear about Vershlengorge, the more worried I become. It definitely feels like we're intended to get in it but its maybe the most evil seeming mech I've ever seen. The fact that piloting well requires communion with something we described as an "abomination" on first sight is something that we should be rightfully wary of. I think it might be a blessing that we didn't take the Feast; we might have to go inside the giant evil robot eventually but there's no call to become more like it.

Otherwise, the journey seems relatively gentle, even with the period monster attacks. As a sidenote, weather in this realm must be absolutely crazy with all the spatial distortions, especially if they apply to light an such. Curious to see the different biomes that might exist on this dungeon world too, rain and sun is neat but I can't imagine the entire thing is made up of rolling hills of grass.

One meandering day, they forded a river, titanic machine wading through the glimmering murk of the rapids that raged and frothed about its shins. Gisena sat on the Armament's shoulder, bare feet dangling merrily off the side, exulting in the occasional dash or spray of water that reached them at this height.

Legs folded meditatively, he scanned the horizon, alert to threats. Here, their mobility was impaired until they crossed the river. Unstable footing would give any enemy a superb opportunity to attack-

Deftly his hand reached out, catching Gisena's thrown slipper before it struck him. It was a flimsy thing of lace the color of her hair; likely a fortune to find dyes of that color. Could he ransom it?

"Come join me!" She called, waving him over. "Live a little!"


He walked over, bearing casual to mask vengeful intent: set on extracting his pound of flesh, or at least on depriving her of any further ammunition.

Ah, the duality of man. Gisena's indifference to life and death is charming as ever, as are her feet. Surprised her shoes haven't been thoroughly ruined by the travels though if they're as flimsy as the hero says; maybe an application of raw findross? I admit, I laughed when I saw his first thought was to ransom the fucking shoe, what a neat little bit of characterization for Hunger.

I'm curious as to how exactly Hunger planned on gaining vengeance, flicking her on the forehead? And I'm sure his desire to take her shoes is purely professional and surely won't open up countless surfaces of attack for Gisena to bully him over his desire to touch her dainty toes. How foolish Hunger, you would have won the battle but lost the war. Good thing you were interrupted or that could have been a fatal mistake.

As he approached, she made to pull him alongside her with a light gesture, but exerted unusual intensity, her eyes alert.

He leaned forward on one knee, bringing him level with her.

"You sensed something?" He whispered, keeping an aggrieved scowl on his face. 


"Mhm!" She responded cheerfully, eyes flickering for a moment to a point on the horizon. "Thanks ever so much for bringing my shoe back, hun! I'd be absolutely beside myself if I lost it!"

"How many of these do you even have?" he asked.

"Right now? Just the one."

"Hmph."

For all the banter and teasing, it's clear that these two have a decent level of rapport and communication, especially for random strangers who know basically nothing about each other. Is this a result of the INT and CHA of Nightmare Praetor? If so, I'm really glad it won. I really want to see scenes with these two getting closer now, in a flirty but platonic friendship.

Not husband and wife though, friends with benefits is about as far as I'm willing to bargain down to and only after years of time spent together. The hero has his wife and Gisena frankly deserves someone who can give her their full attention. I'm honestly wondering if we should even take her along; she's great but without Retinue, her relevance with decline with Accretion's importance. This place is at least safe, reasonably prosperous, at or below her level and filled with technological shit. Better than whatever hellhole the Geas will throw her into next where she might end up both unhappy and a liability.

Perhaps we can come and visit some day? Or summon her to our location before sending her back. The Geas is cruel but nothing is beyond a Progression-type Cursebearer in time.

He dropped the slipper and drew the Forebear's Blade, dashing up and across the Armament's enormous shoulders to reach its one o'clock position, where an Astral Rift was halfway through the process of opening. It looked exactly as he'd imagined, a jagged tear in the fabric of reality exposing void beyond. Within that darkness fluxed seams of color like starlight, lacing up and around each other, busily spirited as if embroidering the edges of the world.

He cut down the first creature that emerged, a ghastly thing of needles and claws, and behind him was a surge of Gisena's power as she unleashed a Tide of Nullity in the opposite direction, reknitting the smaller apertures in reality's weave, preventing them from being flanked.

The next creature was a shelled variant, his blade deflecting off its armor, but a quick strike with the pommel pulverized its guard, its torso cratered as he kicked it off the side. Verschlengorge's leftmost head snapped languidly in its direction, and the creature perished with a gruesome crunch.

I wonder why they bothered with the doublespeak when it was an Astral Rift? Can the monsters that come out be sentient? Or was she just having fun? I'm also curious to see the commonalities between Nullity resealing the rifts and the Armaments forcibly restabilising reality. As a sidenote, how much do you want to bet that part of the plot is gonna end up being about the overuse of Astral technology potentially leading to mass reality failures in the future, giving a real humanitarian purpose to our conquest as we try coordinate humanity so that they can avoid a full blown Astral invasion.

Also, does anyone think that Vershlengorge gets anything about of eating Astral beings? I can't tell what's worse, if it does and is slowly recovering its strength by doing so or it doesn't and just eats shit for fun. I'm not even going to entertain the idea that its purely for combat effectiveness because look at the fucking thing. As a sidenote, just noticed the foreshadowing of pommel strikes being useful against armour, rip. Even if it wasn't intentional, I still feel dumb for not thinking of that kind of tactic.

"My lord, Miss Gisena, we've got incoming!" Letrizia announced, voice tinged with urgency. They felt the Armament shift beneath them, adopting a lower, heavier stance.

"My lord," huh? Compared to the similarly ennobled Gisena, its clear we're somewhat more distant, though I suppose that's to be expected. I'm guessing either Knowledge will either make her loosen up a bit or reinforce our status in her eyes. I'm hoping for the former to be honest, our best chance of being sensibly integrated into this society is with her help.

If Gisena is the gorgeous, intelligent and teasing big sister, I wouldn't mind being the coldhearted, grizzled and ultimately caring elder brother (who is also absolutely gorgeous, make no mistake). Alternatively, we end up as something of a mentor to her. I don't think we'd be half bad at it with our stats, unique abilities and extensive martial experience.

"We're handling it," He shouted back, but she merely pointed forward with the giant's hand, showing a galleon moored on the far bank. There was a ballista mounted atop its prow, bolts gleaming like the noontime sun. As they watched, the ship unmoored and advanced towards them, unfurling a flag of blackest pitch. Its oars moved ceaselessly through the churning rapids, steady as if impervious to the tide.

As Verschlengorge had adopted a hunched position, the emerging Astral beasts now rained down on them from above.

"Perfect timing," he groaned, flipping his sword around. But this was not really a surprise. May you live in interesting times.

Oars? Now that's a hell of a thing. Who the fuck fights a giant monster while on a ship powered by oars?

You got what you asked for, my man. I'm wondering if this was the Apocryphal softballing us due to our relative inexperience as a Cursbearer. Alternatively, the guy we murdered is actually kinda important or will be missed and it maneuvered in our way because it thought we were likely to kill him and cause trouble for ourselves, minimal effort for maximum trouble. Can't be too much trouble given his level of equipment though, unless the circumstances surrounding him were paticularly weird. Wish we'd gotten to learn his story, though I suppose we might anyway if my theory holds up.

The worst would be if this guy was actually the protector of a settlement nearby or something and he attacked Versh for being a giant, obviously evil monster surrounded by Astral beings. If that's the case, I'll really regret not fighting harder for being prudent. Doesn't seem super likely though.

Pirates. And awfully confident, to approach as obviously large and well-protected a target as this. He and Gisena combined could address either of the threats easily, but their strength apart was not so great. The ship was obviously magical, but its crew might not be, so Nullity's power would be better served against the Astral beasts, who her bolts would at least stun.

"Gisena! Focus on the beasts and the Rift! I'll deal with the pirates."

Oof, more possible signs that perhaps these guys weren't just pirates. If they were just looking for money, why would they attack what looks like a giant monster? I'm starting to think they might've been Astral whalers or something. Also, I'm quite glad our boy is a veteran of a thousand battles and a skilled tactician or the Doom would make him really obnoxious in this situation.

As he spoke, the ship continued to approach, gaining with impetuous speed. A set of powerfully launched grappling hooks shot out from the shadowy figures on its deck, latching onto pits, gouges, and crevices in Verschlengorge's armor. As presumptive boarders began making their way up the ropes, he ran down, severing one on his way, and tucked the Forebear's Blade between his teeth as he grabbed another. With his open hand he rode the rope down, the friction sting of passage burning through his gauntlet, and leapt to land heavily on the deck, ruinous force splintering the site of impact. The ship unbalanced, heaving as if roiled.

So, so very swashbuckling. That they've got grappling hooks and not something else might be an indication that they're pirates after all. Wonder what they're user to launch it, that could certainly be a valuable piece of loot if they aren't just chucking it really, really hard. Also, one of the things I really like about your writing is just how much heft things have.

The fights feel weighty because you've got a good sense of their potential effects with regards to physics. Seram's uses of Thermal and Kinetic Amplitude stick out to my mind in paticular, as the research into laser weapons you did for the Photon Helix. I still remember the passage you wrote to illustrate Control's danger and power. It just gives things more weight to see them actually have effects like this, makes battles feel like real and not just people LARPing superpowered fights like the MCU can at times.

Only tangentially relevant but I felt like gushing I guess.

No time for games. He released the Blade from his mouth and caught it with his now-free hand, then turned and sent an arc of blade-wind through the grappling ropes, severing them at once. Pirates rushed at him, men in hauberks of dark plate wreathed in shadow, but he launched a second cleaving strike down into the ship itself, carving a great abscess in the hull to impede their movement.

I'm assuming the blade-wind is an example of Accretion bullshit because I'm 99% sure that ain't cricket with physics. That the people rushed the obvious human being immediately rather than back the fuck off is another hit against my "not a pirate" theory. Kinda feel sad we couldn't keep the ship, even if it needed fucking oars it seemed cool. We should work on grabbing a pocket dimension or something next, both for safety and to store more sweet loot. Unfortunately, Accretion doesn't seem too conducive to that kind of thing, not unless we decide to add a backpack or whatever to our core panoply, which would be lame as fuck.

Ignoring them, he turned to the ballista and began to saw away at the string of its bow. It was curiously resilient, thread the color of gold that bounced sprightily away from the edge of his sword, but he pinned it in place with a foot and it yielded swiftly enough.

By the time he had carved his way through, a number of pirates had crossed the gap. He grabbed a group of ballista bolts and hurled them, catching two in the stomach; they groaned piteously when skewered, golden lightning discharging through their forms. His work done, he kicked the remaining bolts overboard and dropped down the side of the ship, breaking his fall by jamming his blade into its hull, and made his way over to the earlier cut. A few dozen blows and he could split the ship in twain; such was the power of ruin embedded within the Forebear's Blade.

That they have such enchanted weaponry is interesting. Not surprising if they thought attacking a mecha was a good idea but it suggests a level of civilization somewhere on or near the river. Too bad we had to disable it, I would've quite liked a ballista for Versh to use, even if it is only as a throwing weapon.

Regardless, I really hope the mecha can fish the bolts out of the water if they haven't been ruined carried away by the current. While our blade-wind provides a decent ranged weapon for the distances we'd be able to throw them, I'd like an opportunity for our boy to study them with Gisena's help. Also, nice to learn what's up with the power of ruin. Seems to do enormous damages to structures, which would certainly fit its name. Honestly, I keep forgetting the Forebear's Blade is as broken as the Hero. We've really gotta repair it.

He spared a glance for Gisena. Armed with Letrizia's sidearm she was holding her own against the nullified beasts, and Verschlengorge did its best to sweep the largest creatures aside. But focused on immediate battle she couldn't spare the attention to close the largest Rift, and they could well be overwhelmed in time.

Nice to see Gisena getting to live out her degenerate sci-fi isekai fantasies. I can almost hear her telling the Maiden to suck it from here, who needs Graces. She's going to be wildly busted when she had a chance to go full Iron Man. We really ought to get some anti-magic resistance or we're gonna end up being put in the toilet, which is just not allowed. Being able to fight at Gisena's side while she uses the Tides is just an ancillary benefit, honest.

He hoisted himself back up to ship's deck, snatching a grappling hook from the corpse of a crewman, when he was intercepted by a foreboding figure armored in black. This was no hauberk but full plate, heavy enough to leave impressions in the wood where it tread. Darkness billowed in vast, eerie plumes from that armor, spilling upwards in streamers: the night sky's incursion against sun and blue.

In its left hand was a shield, in its right a great curving blade, alive with dark-violet flame.

As the Tyrant's had been, the day he became a widower.

Interesting times indeed.
He felt his gorge begin to rise. With an effort of will he held himself back, but the instant he loosed the world would narrow into a single, inescapable dot of red.

The figure spoke, confident but wary. "Halt, friend. A... misunderstanding. Clearly we mistook you for something else! Parlay?"

And now we see why Cursebearers dread the Apocryphal. It's the only Curse that seems intelligent. Given the general malevolence of Curses, one that's capable of fucking with you in specific and highly tailored ways is truly horrifying. You can play around the other Curses and some might not even affect you depending on what kind of person you are but the Apocryphal seems like its guaranteed to ruin your day, even if it doesn't kill you.

Moreover, how far does its reach extend? Did it know this guy existed and adjusted the tides of fate till the spatial distortions forced him into our path while a Rift opened? Did it reach back into the history of this world to adjust things so that his weapon of choice would bear an unfortunate resemblance to the Tyrant's? This guy had an entire life before he was turned into a random encounter for us.

Also, not sure if I like the precedent we set by murdering a dude who tried to negotiate, even if he was the attacker. Yeah, yeah, brigand, pirate, bandit whatever but we don't actually know this guy's circumstances or the reasons behind his actions. Also, if someone reflexively attacked Vershlengorge when they saw it, I wouldn't blame them at all.

Seriously, it's a giant, humanoid abomination with three fucking faces, all of which are mostly mouth. It's the most evil looking mech I've ever seen.

P.S: 1962 words.
 
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I'm curious Rihaku, has there ever been a build in any of your quests where you are just wondering, "what are these guys thinking?". I'm pretty sure your thinking is to try and balance them all these build votes there have been some that you put in knowing that they are a little too good or too weak.

There have been some stupendously bad builds, but they usually don't survive the pros/cons cycle of consolidation.

A example I think of is in EFB. As good as Thrice Great was, and it was obviously good to add scaling, I think the unsung hero was Young Master. Was there a dice roll involved for what family we were born into, because if so we crit it there. The Safety, Base Stats, and Training options it added were just so good.

Or if not a build that you thought was good, then a build you were hoping would win so you could write it. Maybe you were salivating at the thought of Master of Circumstance Nameless for the epic board game scenes?

I kinda wanted to write more of First Age Odyssial. But it's difficult because pretty much every major conflict short of the Usurpation* would be "And then Odyssial won, the end." With varying degrees of cost, of course.

*And even then, honestly Greatness 10 Odyssial was so busted that the Usurpation shouldn't have had good odds to succeed. But we couldn't really play in that shard for practical reasons...

Because we will be stronger for one or two updates(depending on Arete generation) and then weaker afterwards? This comes up with any "why don't you pick short term option" question. It's a very simple risk/reward calculation. Taking the reward earlier means less risk now, but more risk later.

That depends entirely on the mathematics of 'risk now' versus later! If you know your home is going to be invaded in 2 days, do you buy the best weapon / armor / mercenaries you can get or put the money into equities?

Is the next iteration of Hunger going to be something like

[] Hunger - One Eye Open - The character's subconscious becomes more active. He can fall asleep on command while maintaining a level of awareness of his surroundings and reawaken at will.

The resulting combat style would be so rad.

Hm... since Sleep of the Just makes you like 200 times tankier, your access to "fight while counting as asleep" options would probably be down a different development path or much further along this one.
 
And the thing we learned from all these power expenditures is that spending 1BP is generally not worth it compared to spending 3BPs, which is explicitly the case here. Again, we were completely carried by FB Ring and Forge.

Right now baselines options give us more than enough to power through. Unless you have some specific plan to extract more value with additional investment, which you don't, spending right now is just pissing away valuable resource.
Did they? Without Beyond Quickening we'd have way less time, resulting in the Tyranshal situation being borked and our lackeys being weaker. Without Beyond Ego Barrier we wouldn't have access to Extrusion and EFB Vault. Without Potentiation the Tyranshal situation would also have blown up in our face. B.Amplification was kind of needed for us to do Titanomachy. B.Cerebation might be argued as useless, but that's from the perspective of someone who literally went EFB 4 times and has decided that hunting down the Heroine is pointless.

e: Oh, and we also Beyonded Organ Refining and Soul Chyrssalis, mustn't forget those. So like 14 BP before we EFB'ed. Without those BP and our frankly highly greedy options we would have faced trauma at some point.

And of course B.Quickening + B.Potentiation + B.Amplification + FB.Forge +FB.Ring were all needed for us to even do Titanomachy. Without Beyond Might Xiaoling might well have died. And it still wound up incredibly useful due to Truespelling.
 
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Like, do people just sort of forget what we voted for? Last choice was No Quarter vs Prudence Dictates. We choose No Quarter specifically to get more short term power - and now, we have a minor wound vs Hunger proc boost(say Echo+Fell-Handed Strike). We are massively stronger than we would be with Prudence Dictates, and Prudence Dictates was supposed to be safe enough to allow us to finish the journey.

And now, suddenly, we are in absolute danger if we don't waste Aerte on stats buff?

No.
Did they? Without Beyond Quickening we'd have way less time, resulting in the Tyranshal situation being borked and our lackeys being weaker. Without Beyond Ego Barrier we wouldn't have access to Extrusion and EFB Vault. Without Potentiation the Tyranshal situation would also have blown up in our face. B.Amplification was kind of needed for us to do Titanomachy. B.Cerebation might be argued as useless, but that's from the perspective of someone who literally went EFB 4 times and has decided that hunting down the Heroine is pointless.

And of course B.Quickening + B.Potentiation + B.Amplification + FB.Forge +FB.Ring were all needed for us to even do Titanomachy. Without Beyond Might Xiaoling might well have died. And it still wound up incredibly useful due to Truespelling.
As I've said in my edit:
Again, we were completely carried by FB Ring doubling effects of BPs and Forge allowing us to make supercharged Artifacts.
We were absolutely carried by FB ring and forge. Other expenditures had value, obviously, but they were nothing compared to these two. They pretty much won us the quest.
 
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I don't think we can transfer questing experience from EFB to this one so simply. We had loads of prep time there and encountered rather controlled amounts of danger - we could even afford to party for months! There was the nebulous danger of the Heroine, the Fates, and later Zang Kong, but the world wasn't out to get us most of the time. The opposite of it, in fact.

Now we find ourselves in much more dire circumstances, so choosing to save up isn't as easy.
 
Like, do people just sort of forget what we voted for? Last choice was No Quarter vs Prudence Dictates. We choose No Quarter specifically to get more short term power - and now, we have a minor wound vs Hunger proc boost(say Echo+Fell-Handed Strike). We are massively stronger than we would be with Prudence Dictates, and Prudence Dictates was supposed to be safe enough to allow us to finish the journey.

And now, suddenly, we are in absolute danger if we don't waste Aerte on stats buff?

No.
We have a curse (that is so bad it's considered to be worth 2 curses) that generates plot encounters for us. We could absolutely be in danger at any time.
We were absolutely carried by FB ring and forge. Other expenditures had value, obviously, but they were nothing compared to these two. They pretty much won us the quest.
Sure, if you ignore that those B purchases were what allowed us to actually have the space and time to save up to spend on the EFBs. And that was with literal plot armor.
 
And now, suddenly, we are in absolute danger if we don't waste Aerte on stats buff?

No.

More momentum than anything else. Three Con is quite a bit, considering so far nothing has given it.

A synergy that I don't think has been explicitly mentioned is that it should help mitigate the drain of Felling Strike.

I think starting a fight with Felling Strike and assuming our improved Con lets us keep fighting at near 100% while they slowly fall victim to an unhealable wound is a pretty good tactic.

If we somehow get the chance for 7 I'm dropping it for Sevenfold and going to hope to leverage our relationship with Letty to convince her to not return to civ so we can fight and enter in a position of power.
 
Gah; was supposed to have posted this 2 hours ago, but kept getting distracted. I'm already two updates behind, I'll never catch up at this rate. 1425 words.

"Hm? Asking my opinion now? Consultations aren't free, you know," Gisena teased.

He scoffed. "Riding on my back isn't free either."
The teasing will continue until morale improves. And c'mon mister soon-to-be-Hunger, you both benefited from that piggyback ride! Imagine how annoying it would have been to deal with their regeneration otherwise.

"Are you saying you didn't enjoy that?" She giggled. "Well, I think it's a wonderful creation! I'd love to study it. But my realm didn't have anything like this. The technology's mostly a shell, isn't it? An accoutrement of the creature beneath."

"There is power there. Far more than it's shown to us." Briefly he closed his eyes, reaching out with his instincts. It reminded him almost of the Tyrant, or of his own power at the very height, but much greater. Even the Tyrant was a mere tributary compared to the ocean that slept within this beast. Power of enormous scope, but of a tenor that was similar to his own. And yet like him it was diminished, wan shadow of its full potential. Not dammed, but run dry. And yet it would not take so terribly much for the deluge to come again.

"Think it was holding back?"
 Gisena snapped him from his thoughts.
EVA unit confirmed. I wonder what makes Giant Robots secretly being eldritch abominations so appealing. Maybe it's the mech equivalent of Gap Moe..?

Did Quantified World come standard with his power just like To Shatter Heaven did? Or is this just because of the affinity with the Devourer? And apparently restoring it to it's former glory wouldn't take much, though considering the scales involved I don't how small "not much" really would be. Maybe it would take all the power of a binary star system or something.

"No." He shook his head. "It's injured. Lessened."

"Probably safest just to observe and see if it does something," the Sorceress sighed. "How boring."
Boring but safe! After scaling a giant monster and hacking it's brain to pieces, how much more excitement do you want!?

She turned to him. "So... Got a name?"


He scowled.

Gisena pouted. "I did tell you mine, you know. Noble title and all! That's valuable tactical intelligence." 

lol

The reaction to the reminder of his name's sacrifice was more visceral than I thought. Maybe it's just all the emotions bound up in it.
A name. He'd sacrificed his name, and claiming another at this juncture would just see it slip from his mind. But he needed something for others to call him, that was true enough. He looked down at his hand and the blade that it held. A pseudonym would hold, if it was memorable. Something practical. And yet even a pseudonym held power. Properly chosen, it could bind his objects more strongly to him, or establish that he was separate from them.

Something easy to recall. Something as familiar to him as the back of his hand.

"Hunger. Technically I'm a City Lord, but they've likely had me deposed."
Wow, way to establish your dark lord credentials, Hunger. People will definitely never take your name the wrong way, yep. After all, did you ever meet an untrustworthy person named Hunger? Didn't think so.

Interesting details about Accretion; I guess for a user names really are power.
As he spoke, he felt the essence of the ring shift, become his in full, interlacing its nature with his own. Now, like a ring of power, he would only grow mightier and more cunning with time. Age would have no purchase upon him, and even the Tyrant's curse that had stolen his youth would be reversed and superseded. He hoped that taking this name would also bind the Decimator's Affliction, allowing him to exert some measure of control over it. That would be a priority in the near future.
Wow, all that just from accepting a name? It even let us get more mitigation options for Decimator's Affliction, which was not a listed benefit of the voted option. Increased intelligence is pretty strong.

"Hunger?" Gisena said brightly. "Hm... Lord Hunger. I like it. It's only a little pretentious."

"More than a little. Don't be polite."

"Arrogant and a liar too! Why do I put up with you?"

"I'm a noble. It's to be expected."

"Well, at least he's self-aware."

"Keep talking to yourself. It's better that way."

"Oh? Already in love with the sound of my voice?"

"A-ahem!" A voice boomed from the direction of the giant. "If you two are done flirting, we have important matters to take care of!" 

Hunger, your wife is watching from beyond! How would she react to this!? Stay strong, reject thots!

It appears someone else finally got tired of this. God, we look like an insufferable married couple on the outside, don't we? That's the worse Curse we have yet!
It was a girl's voice, clear and high, but somewhat stilted, as if forcing herself to sound authoritative.

"Sorry, we're not!" Gisena answered cheerfully.

"Huh?" 


"We're not done flirting. Isn't that what you asked? So, mind waiting a bit longer?"

"Ah! Um..."
RIP Asuka. You never had a chance. It only gets worse from here.

"Speak for yourself," he grunted, turning to address the giant. "Are you the pilot of that creature? What's your business?"


"Thank you, my lord. Yes, I am. I'd like to come out and speak to you face-to-face. Will you give your word not to attack my person?"


"I won't attack unprovoked. Do as you please."
And Hunger uses the opportunity to reassert control over the situation, except he's leading now. Even managed to play down the Tyrant's Doom.

Hunger and Gisena seem to make quite a proficient social tag-team, except instead of having a good cop and bad cop dynamic, it's more like "insufferable" and "no-nonsense". Gisena goes on the offensive, destabilizing our opponents and disrupting the dynamic they are trying to establish; and once they've lost the plot, we come in and take control of the situation in our terms, while coming off looking reasonable. That this seems to be just their natural dynamic is quite surprising; The Accursed sure is good at determining compatibility.
Steam hissed from countless apertures as the giant's head and chest moved forward, revealing its internals. A dizzying array of runes and glyphs coated every inch of its bio-mechanical interior, faintly emitting the pale, cold blue of a winter sky. Within was a capsule, which hissed open to reveal a young lady in a pale military jacket with accents of gold. Lean and long of limb, she had delicate, fine-boned features and eyes a shade lighter than Gisena's blue. A long shock of hair trailed nearly to her waist, white in color but with all the luster and texture of youth. She looked to be in her late teens or early twenties. In the fingers of her right hand she held a small text, a manual of some kind.

Emerging from the capsule, she hopped up, landing neatly on the giant's shoulder, leaning forward on one heavy boot.
Magitech mech confirmed I guess, though it was kind of obvious since Gisena could sense its true nature.

Military finery suggests against this being a random person that decided to pilot the mech out of desperation. However, that she still is clutching a manual suggests inexperience. What was she doing in such a remote place?
"Ah!!" Gisena clasped her hands together, eyes sparkling. She leaned over to whisper in his ear. "She's so cute! Can we keep her, hun? Please?"

"Do not call me that. And she's not your pet."

"Then, what should I call milord? 'Huney' has a certain ring to it... "

"Just Hunger is fine."

"What's this, a nobleman claiming to be just?"

"As you said. I'm a liar."
Way to ignore her cool introduction, assholes. She just can't win; Gisena even went back to flirting as if she wasn't even here!

"You said you had business," he called to the girl, before Gisena could interject again.

The girl nodded, stealing a glance at her manual before speaking. "You're outsiders, right? Come in through an Astral Rift? We're lucky we found each other. This place has certain properties making it difficult to navigate. Most outsiders who arrive here either die or are never seen from again, but my Armament," she gestured at the giant, "can bring us to civilization."
Immediately establishing that our situation is not unique and that we're outside of what's considered civilization. Is this some kind of cosmic dumping ground? A pretty lethal one, by the sounds of it. Also tries to establish herself as the only reasonable alternative.

"Okay. I'm listening."


"Well..." the girl frowned. "It's a lot to explain. Since we all look human and are even speaking English, I'm going to assume you're from a world with similar ontological parameters..."

"Hm." He had assumed the Accursed had given him a translation function.

Gisena perked up. "In my realm it's called Angletierre, but I've been speaking it because everyone else has. My native language is actually Joanian."

He raised an eyebrow. That wasn't easy. "You have no accent. Impressive."

"Of course! I am a genius, after all."

The sorts of questions that are never asked during your average isekai adventure.

What kind of people even drop here to need to ask these sorts of questions? Do they find corpses of people who immediately died due to incompatible physics or something?
"Anyway!" The pilot said, "The place we're currently trapped is named the Voyaging Realm. We believe it's an artificial universe created by an ancient species who called themselves the Foremost. It's contained by an outer ring the size of a gas giant, with the space inside heavily spun, folded, and distorted. It's constantly shifting and some parts are dangerous. A small portion of the Realm is unaffected and humans have built a city and spaceport there. That's where I'm trying to go." She showed them a picture from her manual, depicting a highly advanced metropolis with towers of steel and glass, over which loomed a small flotilla of angular ships. If this was accurate, these people were far beyond the Earth of his time.
Finally, an exposition dump.

The Voyaging Realm sounds sick. Is it necessary for the FTL method they have? The name implies so. I can't imagine the staggering amounts of resources and technology to expand something the size of a gas giant to even one percent of the universe.

The amount of power it implies is more than matched by the potential applications. The implication that this realm is the key to FTL isn't just it. It might also have been used as some sort of dimensional "catching net" to fish out interesting things that fall through the dimensions; considering the superexponetial interactions that can happen between any two magic systems, catching even one such synergy could justify the entire expense of making it. There's also possible tech benefits if those distorted spaces include novel physics; the applications of even little alterations to the rules of the universe are staggering to consider.

However, considering we have so far only seen idyllic farmland, maybe it's not so different? Can't say, maybe were just dropped here because it would be safe or even because of the influence of the Devourer.

Finally, it may also just be a net for Astral Denizens in specific and catching other beings is just a side benefit. Considering the make of the Armament, it may be that the higher levels of the Foremost tech-tree need the enslavement or harvesting of Astral beasts.
"Since my Armament is so badly weakened, I'd like your help making it there. In return you'll reach civilization and my government will probably pay you a hefty sum as well. If you're interested, we could even arrange longer-term employment. Rift outsiders with unique skills are always welcome. Any questions?"

"I don't work well with others," he said, "I'm happy to kill things for money, but I won't act under your chain of command. If that's fine, I've got a few more questions."
Deftly working around Tyrant's Doom once again using technical truths; the best kind of truths!

The rewards schemes definitely seem something institutional. Is this sort of mercenary arrangement common in the Voyaging Realm? We later learn she's a duchess, so shouldn't there be an escort for this VIP and the even more important dormant superweapon? What was she doing in the middle of nowhere?
She nodded.

But Gisena interrupted, practically vibrating with excitement. "What incredible technology! Flying ships! Cities that scrape the sky! This day has turned out far better than I thought. When I opened that Void I expected only death, not to be sent to another world out of my wildest dreams!"
To think you just need a desperate sacrifice gamble to land on your dream realm. Does she feel vindicated about the fact that all her hightech dreams were indeed possible?

"Oh?" The girl cocked her head. "How did you two get here, if you don't mind my asking?"


"I used my powers to tear a hole through reality," Gisena explained. "I didn't think it would work, and almost burned out that Grace. I was trying to assassinate the.... hero of my world for murdering my sisters. It didn't go so well, so I had to run."

"You're quite brave, Miss Gisena!" said the pilot. "And you, milord?" She turned to him.
And so, we learn about the fundamental difference between the original Gisena and this new and improved version. I wonder what caused it? Was it mere happenstance, the neural patterns in her brain arranging themselves slightly differently to vastly divergent outcomes? Or is there a more fundamental deviation? She still seems to have all the carefree nihilism of the original; so maybe she just decided that her life had very little value anyway?

He frowned. "I was the hero of my world and assassinated after I slew the Tyrant."

Gisena beamed, wrapping her arms around his left. "We're a perfect pair!"
Get off thot.

What a pair. Was this type of symmetry included in the compatibility assured by Accursed? I'm surprised she didn't tease us more about that in future updates, really.
He shrugged her off. "This is the third dimension I've stumbled into. My home was a planet called Earth. We had a technological civilization, planes and satellites, but nothing truly interstellar. Tell me about your society. What volume of space do you occupy? How many stars do you control?"


"Well, it's complicated," the pilot temporized. "The Human Sphere encompasses about ten thousand inhabited worlds, and includes another twenty thousand uninhabited systems used for resource extraction. The Realm we're standing in technically isn't a part of it, aside from our spaceport and city. The Sphere is divided into three polities, and the nation I'm from controls about twenty-seven hundred stars. But, I actually work for a jointly-funded agency supported by all three nations, so... like I said, it's complicated. It's not really relevant, none of the states has much power here!"
Goddamn, that is a lot of space to conquer; as pointed out, if we were to personally conquer each planet, even with our 2500 year time limit we'd still have only 2 months per planet. Becoming the head of a faction is basically mandatory in this circumstance.

Luckily we won't have to worry about the authority of any of the three nations while we are here. I wonder why this place isn't aggressively colonized by the polities instead of relying on a supranational organization. Even if it shifts constantly, clay is clay, and the Armaments imply some pretty impressive stuff can be made out of Astral Denizens.
"Fine. You mentioned a number of other hazards. Creatures like this dragon? Are they related to these Astral Rifts? Any strategic or tactical information we should be aware of?"

"Y-yes. How to explain this..." She mused, tapping her lip with a gloved finger. "So, your home world, you said you weren't interstellar. Were you bound by the speed of light?"


"We knew about it. We didn't have ships nearly that fast."

"Neither do we, really. Long-distance travel is mostly conducted with Astral technology, either supplementing our movements or tunneling directly into the Astral Realm. Doing this destabilizes the gradient between realities, sometimes creating rifts through which Astral denizens sometimes attack us. They're especially attracted to Armaments, which can forcibly re-stabilize that gradient in a large radius. Mine is so weakened that its beacon isn't strong, so we shouldn't have to deal with anything too serious, but the Voyager Realm also has a natural rate of rift incidence. That's where you guys came from."
Hmm. Are Astral Denizens like Warp Demons? They don't seem organized though. FTL is done through tunneling to a different realm and the denizens of that realm are not pleased. They seem to recognize the Armaments as a threat especially. Is it just because of it's stabilization feature? Some remnant hatred from a conflict between them and the Foremost? Or are they trying to rescue the monster trapped inside the cage of technology? Hell, maybe it's all three.

She hesitated, then continued to speak. "Any Astral denizens that appear from those in our vicinity are going to attack my Armament. The... dragon you fought was one. Additionally, there are some unusual creatures and societies in this Realm that are hostile to humans. Most of the creatures we encounter shouldn't be too terribly stronger than the dragon you killed. So, it'd really be safest if we traveled together! Especially if we could restore my Armament, even a little bit."
She hesitates before calling it a "dragon". Simplifying it for us, or is she hiding something?

Unusual creatures and societies. Are those "naturally" occurring, deliberately engineered by the Foremost, or the the result of dimensional castaways settling? Again, maybe it's all three. This place is full of mysteries.
"So. We're trapped in a pocket universe that's immeasurably vast, within which space shifts so that locations don't correspond to each other. It's partially inhabited by monsters, and Astral Rifts occasionally deposit more monsters, which will automatically attack if you're in the vicinity."

She nodded. "That's right."
Doesn't seem like following her is a good deal if you put it like that. However, she's in luck, because we in fact want to be constantly attacked! The sweet gains beckon!

"So how can your 'Armament' navigate this place?"

She swallowed. "G-good question! Most Armaments are Foremost technology, mine included. There's an inbuilt navigational system for Foremost realms. I estimate it'll take us about t-two months to reach the city's staging grounds, give or take two weeks."

As far as he could tell, she was mostly sincere, though her time estimate was likely more certain than she felt. And if she wasn't lying, it would be difficult to escape this Realm alone.
Wow, was she expecting something different or was she that insecure towards her navigational ability?

Apparently Hunger is adept in detecting lies. Forebear's influence, or a skill gained from years in guerrilla warfare?
He glanced over at Gisena.

"Oh? Do I get a say in this, milord?"

"No. I'm just looking at you for no reason."

"I do have that effect on people. And I'd love to go. So much technology to explore, it'll be exciting!"

He turned to the pilot. "Then we're in."
Huh, she is already treating us as the leader and deferring to us. I imagine she just really wants a meatshield. Weird if she can really see our Curses, considering the existence of Apocryphal. She either too nihilistc to care or considers going with us an improvement or her chances even taking the Curse in consideration. Not sure either is wise, considering. But hey, more power for us.

"Great!" She curtseyed neatly before them. "Duchess Letrizia von Artriez, pilot of the Devouring Armament, Verschlengorge. We'll be in your care."

Gisena elegantly returned the curtsey with one of her own. "Pleased to meet you, Zea! We're going to be best friends. Now tell me... what's a 'planet?' By what principle are they organized into 'star systems?' And what's that to do with the speed of light?"

"M-Miss Gisena, one at a time, please!"
What is a Duchess doing in the boondocks like this? Pretty suspicious. Was she accidentally cast away herself? It would explain at least some of the mech damage. Pretty fortunate she met us then. At least for her safety; considering Gisena, her dignity might be another matter...
 
Well there's additional good news. Because we chose Knowledge presumably we're going to get a lot of information about the world next update from Letty.

Hopefully it will give us a better idea of what level of power exists here and how it compares to civilization.
 
More momentum than anything else. Three Con is quite a bit, considering so far nothing has given it.

A synergy that I don't think has been explicitly mentioned is that it should help mitigate the drain of Felling Strike.

I think starting a fight with Felling Strike and assuming our improved Con lets us keep fighting at near 100% while they slowly fall victim to an unhealable wound is a pretty good tactic.

If we somehow get the chance for 7 I'm dropping it for Sevenfold and going to hope to leverage our relationship with Letty to convince her to not return to civ so we can fight and enter in a position of power.
I won't deny that upgrades are great. Three con all but ensures our safety and allows for more aggressive engagements(cough Power cough) while Aeons play directly to our play style by upgrading it substantially. But I don't think that merely great is enough. I think that for Arete expenditure we need to get actually paradigm shifting levels of power. Qualitative upgrade vs quantitative upgrade. And for that we need at least seven Arete.

Also
Well there's additional good news. Because we chose Knowledge presumably we're going to get a lot of information about the world next update from Letty.

Hopefully it will give us a better idea of what level of power exists here and how it compares to civilization.
That too, yes.
 
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
-[X] 2 Arete: Undying Echo
[X] Hunger - Sleep of the Just


Changing my vote from Hunger and Fell-handed Stroke to be slightly less greedy and use 2 Arete for short term survival.
 
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