There is a limit, and it's clear we have gone past it! Shall we stop?

  • No

    Votes: 81 4.2%
  • Never

    Votes: 313 16.2%
  • The other poll vote at least got a lousy shirt for this.

    Votes: 197 10.2%
  • You don't have enough gold to build that 'Stop' sign

    Votes: 198 10.2%
  • Remember the Malkavian, for he Stops when Stop-Chan says so

    Votes: 215 11.1%
  • You must construct additional farms. Coffee farms.

    Votes: 929 48.1%

  • Total voters
    1,933
Will never understood on why everyone hates the fact that all Grimm are dead and people are flourishing. All because it's handed to them, Ruby have a great insight on the issue but I just like to think it's just people being petty and prideful.
While there are many valid gripes to be had, this isn't really one of them. It was literally stated in the last interlude by a non-Wren POV. People don't hate the world they have, they hate how they got their (by force if not violence), and they hate that things changed (which is, and always will be a feature of human civilization as we know it).
Though that sticks to me as a failed plot point. The Fall of Vale happens after Salem and Wren's conversation where he says family is important to him. So why wouldn't she send one of her trusted tools to kidnap his sister as leverage? Could have really put Wren in a pickle choosing between family and his goals to save mankind. And though it would break his heart and cause others to hate him as a soldier Winter would be the most understanding of his inevitable choice to sacrifice her. Or he'd pull something out of his ass and save her too.
This I most definitely agree with. What actually happened to Winter and Ironwood? Were they just supposed to be eaten by Grimm then? Held captive and blown to bits by the bombing? If Salem doubled down on the prison like she seemed too in the first assault overpowering it's nominal defences and Hunter prisoners AND commando Droid squad (complete with some of the hilariously effective aerosolized mutagen). Hell, not just 'breaking a hole', or 'killing most of the normies', but putting casualties in the Elites (mis-specialized as they were) almost immediately and assigning one of her very few pet Hunter's there. Either Salem was successful (in which case we have a hostage situation or 'body' art left behind to really push Wren's stress while 'dating', or she wasn't and Winter and co. should be out in the wilderness somewhere. Maybe plotting to topple the Schnee oppression...but probably waiting just over a decade or being unnoticed that whole time.

I will say the main gripe I have with Shade inserts is from the ZNT, HP, and now RWBY ones where his presence makes the main characters pointless and he constantly burns bridges left and right yet achieves his goals.
I'm kind of so-so on the pointless argument. He definitely hogs the protagonist role with how proactive Shade SI's tend to be (even when they don't recognize it)...but there's also a lot of dissonance from how dominant the POV is. We simply don't get much information about what others are doing and thinking, and even less shown not told. That we tend to get what we do after major events go down doesn't help for lack of a reference point. This SI is pretty dominating of course, but it was also modeled after a friggin RTS (and if you're not dominating in that, you're building up to it or losing), and even then other characters played important roles and made big decisions, just most of which happened off screen, and even less was visibly beneficial in 'solving' the plot (like tutelage under Polendina, the actual working managers and beuracracy of SDC, Ozpin pulling strings in his Illuminati, or even Sienna Khan trying to cool down fanatics while also making sure Wren is on the up-n'up). Others stories have even more importance in the decisions and contributions of other characters, Shade just prefers unreliable narrators for his own purposes and (in my opinion), a lack of comfort with other POVs.

Wait. This story was based on Saruman of Many Devices?
Huh. Wouldn't have thought it. Not that I didn't like SoMD or this, but aside from 'moar tech = win', they aren't very similar. The AI in SoMD (based off an older book series) has the purpose of preventing the stagnation or decay of civilization wherever possible, and the Rise of Sauron both qualified and was highly likely (canon being essentially a lottery victory). Enter OOC influence. What it wasn't though, was particularly... sympathetic. It gave not two shits about being 'good', it's just altruistic and benevolent actions are better for long term civilization and often short term as well. It also didn't get upset by people being people in the face of disaster, and through it's influence cooled Saruman down as well (very much unlike Wren). Lastly, there's a lot more 'realistic' constraints. Middle Earth is very much less advanced then Remnant, and while magic and fantasy skill might make large leaps possible, they'd be inefficient and ultimately pointless in the face of Sauron's overwhelming logistical advantage. Hence development in more types of technology then just weapons/armor, focus in doctrine, and careful balance of progress to keep on the edge without overextending or being spoon fed answers to all problems. In this story? Polendina made the (very big) tech jump Vegapunk-style, and the MC is excused their own lack of being a super genius via taking notes and 'unlimited' resources. And then his AI start going down the Singularity path (i.e. taking over design from humans) within the literal first generation and resources are never more then a minor issue (the Atlas confrontation being more of a speedbump to Wren and threat to Podunk villages he's only morally obligated to protect, not logistically or strategically. Even Salem doesn't quite count as while she and the Grimm were overwhelming for a while, the SCP was set to snowball production for a long time as well, even should Wren die.) To be fair in contrast, Wren's big hurdle, as noted by many, was always the social side in which he got no handouts (while Saruman's many character faults were mostly dismissed by his mcguffin doing the equivalent of telling him to chill out).

No, we can into world wars just fine. We just lose our troops, surrender half-way through by changing sides, and then somehow end up at the winner's table-side like some kind of overzealous puppy-mascot that somehow, just somehow, gets *something* out of the deal.

Italy has never lost a proper world war. We just like to spice things up for our allies and then become the enemy's best friend.
*Catch 22 vibe's of horror and humor intensify*

Notice: I think some people asked to sig stuff from the fic (can't remember where they were, but I was on mobile while reading those posts) feel free to. Like, you don't need my permission to sig stuff.
Perhaps a note in your signature to that effect? (Huehuehue;))

Their sheer idiocy is astounding,
Now, all jokes aside, by godly standards the Brothers Binary really aren't all that bad. They never had any truly explicitly malicious intentions, (probably) brought Humanity back after the initial rebellion and wipe out, and even resisted the memetic divine urge to poke things by not judging, interfering, or even observing Remnant so much as once as they promised before 'grading'. It's just that they also had human flaws they didn't recognize, thought of their creations as nothing more then a flawed test to be disposed of and retried, had next to no forethought as God's or scientists on the consequences of making Salem and Ozma immortal as punishment (dooming both to a terrible fate and spoiling the next 'test'). Now, compared to other God's that are either terrible in their alien mindset or absolute demands (looking at you Old Testament) or Human in all the worst ways (narcisstic, megalomaniac, rape-y, cheaty, angry, etc, and often even less self-aware or thinking about the future). Even when they aren't all or some of the above, they probably have some problem or other that causes serious issues easily avoided (Brahma constantly giving demons boons for praying hard, and them immediately turning around to go screw up creation).

No, on a relative scale the Brothers aren't bad, not even by the standards of many humans. It's just they've got shit loads of power, and little perspective so 'small flaws' for them at their level include stuff like genocide and immortal torture due to a tantrum.

I know that the singularity is not the main pivot of this fic, but it asked for a level of gravity and magnitude to fulfill its narrative use. And the irrelevance afforded it weakened the story structure as things started heating up near the end there, where it most needed that narrative weight.
Yeah, gotta agree here...not least because the 'Singularity' isn't truly present until the very (vague) end. 'Singularity' is a concept in computer science as a possible conclusion to Moore's 'Law' (that the processing capability will double or size halve of a computer every single generation) which mostly came about due to the real observation of that trend (but not enough to technically make it a law). Of course, in modern times we've started to hit roadblocks on that as transistor scale is small enough that Quantum Tunneling of electrons is a problem, Quantum Computing is a near total unknown potential, and software very much does NOT follow the Law, but a few decades ago the idea was eventually things would reach the point of Singularity. A computer is made 'good' enough, that it can design the next generation better and combined with the already superior speed of machine would create a feedback loop to kickstart Moore's law into high-gear and eventually make human-level or superior AI. Post-scarcity and other leaps of technology are closely associated with a potential singularity as a natural use of vastly more powerful computers (a conclusion drawn from their existing effect on science)...but they aren't actually part of it or guranteed. The Singularity is only really hardware and depending on interpretation software and some mat-sci for the hardware. In this story, Stenophylla is technically the start of it's proposed Singularity, but it never seems to go much beyond her, and her resources get progressively more ridiculous. Not just in the sci-fi dust-tech and robotics already pioneered by Polendina, but also how quickly she can go from 'nothing but some inspiration' to 'mass production and integration' for OOC tech Remnant has never seen before. Where's the prototyping? The science and the research? The painful development of simulation capability, or the road block of limited perspective and need for peer review? It's all implied to be there, but almost nothing is shown, just like with the sudden explosion of industrial facilities that can fit a whole vertical line of infrastructure from mining, refining, creation, and assembly of rather advanced electronics (and their finicky components) all in one site. Where the hell did it come from? Obviously the point of the story is about the character development within the style of RTS development, not the tech and uplift itself...but then that makes all the constant push of 'the Singularity' and 'progress' all the more grating. Logical as an idea, and perhaps deeper as a way to 'show' one of Wren's biggest cases of rationalization and excuses for his behavior...but still a little grating to see every other chapter if not more often.

He did not grow. The Wren of chapter 2 is the same Wren in the epilogue. That's the really frustrating part of this.
Which leads to this. A lot (or at least the ones I've read more recently) of Shade's SI's are very similar. The consistency on it's its own isn't bad, it is supposed to be technically the same character after all. That the development of the character is often so similar (grimderp protective + sacrificial with sides of humor and hard decisions) can be at times tedious, but again also fits the character and type of story/setting Shade prefers.

The problem here, is that while the internal monologue and narrative of the SI is clearly flawed...it is also very consistent. Character development happens, and it's noticible in their actions, but the steadiness of their internal perspective makes noticing or empathizing with those changes and development difficult, as does the lack of external perspectives and interludes (or at least, lack of them spaced out over the story so change has a clear reference line, not just a bunch after a big event 2/3's in.)

Combined with habit of his SI's working covertly, and the constant Dad-joke humor (not bad humor, but present rain or shine) makes development hard to track. Wren went from a well intentioned insert with the idea to help out however possible...and got drug so hard through the muck of humanity and reality of limitations that he got jaded enough to make the Celestial Emperor jealous. But because he kept the same sort of narrative, the same melodramatic affection of cute imouto/daughteru gags (still humorous to read, not poorly done), feeling that change is difficult. Such that when he does pull the gloves off, or get blinded by his own flaws and ego, it seems to come out of nowhere or have always been there. Which makes empathy difficult unless you're already really sympathetic to the character and their actions (the actions at least, we're not really supposed to be I think).

Obviously chronologically this shift was present at the start of the story, what with little Wren learning about blackmail and extortion, and progressing to assassination...but it happened very early in the story, and there wasn't a lot of distinction made pre and post Jaques experience in the dialogue.

And...that about sums up what I can think of for now. So, cheerio I guess, and remember this is just my opinion and observations, at least something of which i've said is probably wrong because a fact was forgotten or replaced by head-canon.
 
Will never understood on why everyone hates the fact that all Grimm are dead and people are flourishing. All because it's handed to them, Ruby have a great insight on the issue but I just like to think it's just people being petty and prideful.
It's because post-scarcity or not, a police state is a police state, even if it is a gentle one. Not to mention all the people who are out pf work because robots and AI took thier jobs. Though depending if Aura and Semblances work outside of Remnant's atmosphere, Hunters probably won't care much if they can still kick butt...
 
Epilogue - Part Three

It was a dingy bar in the outskirts of Patch. That was where the annual meetup of Team RWBY happened. They would meet, drink, and remember the times they fought Grimm, the White Fang, and then more Grimm, and then were literally rendered unemployed within years.

There was no tab to pick, the beer produced and bottled into automated industrial plants in Mistral and delivered to the island of Patch for free from the newly minted Transportation Hub that floated gently in the seas of Remnant with its massive cargo fleet and its thousand automated workers.

They were all there. Older, yes, but not outside of the prime of their life. And if somebody said something about a couple of eye-wrinkles, Yang would gladly give them a true blue-eye.

"How are things in Menagerie, Blake?" Ruby asked, a sloshed smile on her face. The woman's face was half pressed against the table surface. Her silver eyes were glimmering by themselves.

"Things are...complicated," Blake acquiesced. "Sienna convinced a large number of people to refuse the SDC-and they left for some unknown part of Remnant. I don't think-I don't know what's going to happen."

"Brother will probably find where they are, put a gate around them, make it a zoo and call it a day," Weiss slurred out, her forehead resting on the table. "He's-He's won, whatever victory he's got, I hope he likes it." She fumbled for her glass. "I'm not going to care anymore," she took a deep swill. "The world is his."

"I say we could take him," Yang muttered, "Just show up, smiling, and punch the living daylights out of him."

"Yang," Ruby muttered, "Bad Yang."

"And has that ever worked?" Weiss snorted. "He will do things his way. Always."

Blake's cat ears flattened against the top of her skull. "He's a pathological liar," she muttered, "the things he says, the things he does, and the things he thinks...they're never the same."

"Yeahy, Blake has seen the light of reason," Yang cheerfully said, "It only took how many fuck-ups this time around? A dozen? Two dozens?" She placed an arm around her, "Good to have you back on our side of hating Wren Schnee!" she giggled as she said that, her head pressed against the side of Blake's shoulders.

"Hate is a bit of a strong word," Weiss mumbled, "But...I don't like him. I...I don't think I ever will," she acquiesced.

"It's kind of sad, isn't it?" Ruby muttered, propping her chin on her crossed arms. "Life's nice. The Grimm are defeated. We have everything but...but we still can't help but hate the way it was given to us," she grimaced. "I pity him." She swallowed another swig of the alcohol in front of her. "I pity him a lot. What does he have left anyway?"

"The world, Rubes?" Yang mused dryly.

"Is it really his, though?" Ruby muttered, "It's ours. Yes, it sucks that there aren't any Grimm to fight, but I could open up a flower shop. They'd build one for me, for free. The world is far more mine today than it was before," she shook her head. "He lives in his giant tower surrounded by the machines he created, but he's got nothing else. Money doesn't mean anything. We won't be rounded up and killed for disagreeing. We won't be heard, yes," she added hastily, as Weiss was about to say something of the sorts, "That's true! We can scream about it, and he won't even hear us, but how's that any different from how it was before? Did we have a voice before? No, we didn't."

"Ruby, are you seriously..." Blake muttered, her voice trailing off.

"My mother died to the Grimm, fighting a war Ozpin could not win," Ruby whispered. "If Weiss' brother had been just ten years older, maybe if he had been just twenty years older-she would still be alive. She would be home. She would be baking cookies, and making dad happy and-" she drained her glass, letting it thump angrily on the surface of the table. "Yeah, I don't like him. I don't like him at all, but I cannot-will not, hate him. He doesn't deserve our hate. He deserves our pity. He pushed everyone else away from him, and that's something we'll never forgive him." Ruby shook her head. "But deep down, I think it's what he expected, and what he knew would happen."

Ruby smiled bitterly. "I think that we can keep moping about the past, but it's time...I think it's time we looked at the future. They say they're nearly done preparing for the first mission with living people to the moon. The moon! Do you think it's made of cheese? And how would one go about getting tickets for it?"

The nature of the argument change was quietly accepted.

-----

In the vast emptiness of space, Salem wondered where she had gone wrong. She had thought herself above reproach. There were no signs of whom she truly was. She hadn't hinted at them, hadn't shown them, and she was a good judge of character and was relatively sure that Wren Schnee had honestly looked smitten by her.

She should have expected from his past history some level of deceit, but for it to be so deep that he would be capable of hiding his inner emotions to her? To be able to falsify his affections to the point where his very heart would lie together with him?

She couldn't help but think about it, in the vastness of space, lost into a sea of darkness that had seemingly no end.

Wren Schnee was truly a horrifying creature. Perhaps, even worst than the Grimm, or the Gods.

He wasn't a human. He couldn't be a human. She had come to the conclusion in a matter of decades, past the natural wrath that had brought her to destroy the craft she had been on. She couldn't help but admire the innovative thinking, even amidst her thoughts on how to best destroy the man. Even then, it hadn't mattered. She was adrift in space, beyond any hope of salvation.

After a few more decades, she had come to the inevitable conclusion that perhaps she was mistaken on his identity.

Maybe he was human, and humanity was the greatest monster of them all.

She had first-skin experience with Ozma, after all.

He was the monster known as Human...

...with a Heart of Ice and Coffee.

AN:

So, this is done. Let's get to the meat of the argument soon after.

What was the idea behind the story? I once read a fanfiction, a couple of chapters really, of Saruman getting an AI (crossover from another science fiction story) that wished for him to technologically advance Middle-Earth for some unknown big future fight from an unknown enemy. The AI had picked Saruman because out of everyone, he was the one that sought technological evolution and was the closest equivalent to a scientist the world had. The AI didn't care about Saruman's morality, or ethics. There was a great purpose, and it had to be achieved with the best tools available for the job.

That was the key inspiration.

This also wasn't going to be a story about heroes. Make no mistake, a story with a Huntsman Wren would have gone through all the tripe of learning how to fight, losing, winning, whatever. But this wasn't a story about that.

This was, ironically, a story about taking the elements of RWBY and shoving into them a different point of view.

Which, again, was what some people actually caught on to. It was playing an RTS in what is normally an RPG.

Some may say there weren't any challenges that Wren couldn't win. I say you haven't been looking. He didn't win the most important battle of them all; the one where other people would come to like him. He hasn't won that. That was another key point of the story. With all of his lying, all of his falsehoods, he pretty much burned all bridges meant to form a honest relationship. He is, in one word, a narcissistic man that stares at the mirror of his own creation and yet knows, deep down, that he has lost everything else that mattered.

He has no true bonds, or attachments. There is an Italian story about this, by the way (another inspiration) which is about an actress that has fallen so well into her part, that when she falls in love, she uses the lines from her scripts, and the man she falls in love with runs away terrified that he isn't truly loving a woman, but just a piece of paper on a script.

And that's what happens here.

He has the world, but what does the world mean? Does he have wealth? Wealth means nothing now. Does he have the power to kill whoever he wishes? Yes, but does he use it? No. He wouldn't be able to. Stenophylla has shown that his children value human life more than they value orders that go against him. The Children are better, and yet comparatively worse than he is.

That's true. It's never been a lie to state that their religious fascination was perhaps a by-product of one of the recurring themes of this fic: the quest for love.

Wren sought it out, and ironically never found it. True love, born of loving another human being with its flaws and defects, of accepting being wrong, of changing one's attitude and behaviors-he never found it. He never could find it.

His victory isn't empty, but it's not full either.

Mankind will reach the stars. They will hate him for it. He will accept that hate.

But Mankind moves on. It's what we do.

I actually enjoy receiving criticism. My hug to Ars Poetica is because I read carefully through his points, and I did notice a few things I could improve for my next fic (whenever the inspiration hits again, I guess). That being said, I still hope you enjoyed this junk food serving of a story.

If not, well, it's not like there was a kickass robot-assassin-girl that forced you to read it.

You're on the Shade Train out of your own volition. The door's open, the train's stopped at the train station, but you just can't leave it.

Still, love you lots all the same.

And anyway...


...see that title drop? See how cool it was!?
Love you lots too Shade!
Can't wait for your future work!

Too bad we didn't get to see Weiss cry over Wrens real grave.

Also, did Winter and Ironwood truly die?
 
I mean I liked the story but I just can't stand the characters boo hoo all our problems went away we can do what we want even call the guy who gave us the freaken universe a bastard.

And don't his daughters have free will? He made his family and they seem to love him. I don't see any problems with this.

Wren and his robots are what a lot of people wish an all powerful deity was.

All I see is ungratefulness and stupidity
 
I mean I liked the story but I just can't stand the characters boo hoo all our problems went away we can do what we want even call the guy who gave us the freaken universe a bastard.

And don't his daughters have free will? He made his family and they seem to love him. I don't see any problems with this.

Wren and his robots are what a lot of people wish an all powerful deity was.

All I see is ungratefulness and stupidity

Part of life is the struggle.

Something freely given is resented more than that which is earned, even if the latter involves more blood and toil.

/at least, that seems to be the general feeling
 
I mean I liked the story but I just can't stand the characters boo hoo all our problems went away we can do what we want even call the guy who gave us the freaken universe a bastard.

And don't his daughters have free will? He made his family and they seem to love him. I don't see any problems with this.

Wren and his robots are what a lot of people wish an all powerful deity was.

All I see is ungratefulness and stupidity
Yeah, I'm not sure what the issue is either with being given the choice to live a stress free life with everything you need or want provided for you or if you don't want that, having the option of going to another part of the world or galaxy where you can build your own society where you'd have to struggle for a living if that's what you'd prefer.

His daughters don't have the option of self termination. That's something I would have given the robots. What he did was basically the same thing as what the gods did to Salem when they cursed her with immortality.
 
It's ironic that Robusta was standing in the same place Salem was, with almost the same circumstances in front of the brothers... and instead of pleading she simply took everything.

EVERYTHING
 
I was halfway expecting him to die, then wake up in an android frame.

"I thought I told you no golden throne!"
"Well, you shouldn't have given us free will. . ."
 
You know with Salem floating through space, I cant help but think of what will happen with whatever planet she lands on, if she doesn't go into a star or black hole. Than I remembered that shade did a FF7 fic and now I'm wondering if Salem is Jenova.
 
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It's been some time but I've found a song that fits this story:

Hahaha! Perfect!! Absolute perfection!! This is exactly what this fic is all about!

On a side note, now I read finish this series, I like to say that this is one of the few RWBY fic i have to joy to finding and reading. Won't be re-reading it with how of a Gary Stu Wren came off as, but quite a fun read. Especially with how you make turn the whole series on its head with the plotholes in the actual canon lore and playing with the world given to you. (Especially with how you deal with the whole give Jacques the taste of his own medicine).

the only hangup I have with it is that despite the fact that Wren did quite a lot of bad things with great intentions and good results, he didn't truly pay any consequences with it. I mean, I was kind of expecting some kind of future karma in which his entire dynasty just crumbles the moment he died. I mean, he even came back to life after pretty much ENSLAVING the two brother gods for what is essentially and infinite power supply. All that karma is going to catch up to him sooner or later, even if he has the best intentions at heart.

Of course, that's just my own opinion, so take with a grain of salt.
 
Yeah, I'm not sure what the issue is either with being given the choice to live a stress free life with everything you need or want provided for you or if you don't want that, having the option of going to another part of the world or galaxy where you can build your own society where you'd have to struggle for a living if that's what you'd prefer.

His daughters don't have the option of self termination. That's something I would have given the robots. What he did was basically the same thing as what the gods did to Salem when they cursed her with immortality.
He claimed he didn't give them any restrictions. However not only is that a restriction, it is one of Issac Asimov's laws.

Then again, I am in Asimov's and Richter's camp, and don't put any credit into Less Wrong's assertion of AI's having this integral need to abandon operating according to instructions.
 
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Then again, I am in Asimov's and Richter's camp, and don't put any credit into Less Wrong's assertion of AI's having this integral need to abandon operating according to instructions.
LessWrong doesn't believe AIs have an integral need to abandon their instructions. They believe that A.Is will follow their instructions to the letter and doom us all because computers are extremely literal, people can't specify all the nuances of what they want and intelligence is hard to get right. Think of the old stories of genies where a person's wish gets granted in a way they didn't intend. The LessWrong idea of solving the problem through coherent extrapolated volition is stupid because human desires aren't coherent over time and it is a catch 22 because if you had a safe A.I able to correctly interpret human desires you wouldn't have the problem in the first place. The proper solution is to limit the A.I so that its activity is predictable. Make the A.Is lazy with techniques like hyperbolic discounting so they don't care what happens beyond a short time frame and you can get them to do useful work without plotting to take over the world.
 
The proper solution is to limit the A.I so that its activity is predictable. Make the A.Is lazy with techniques like hyperbolic discounting so they don't care what happens beyond a short time frame and you can get them to do useful work without plotting to take over the world.

Or give them quantifiable and obtainable goals. "Make 30 of this recipe from this cook book." instead of "Make the greatest X Recipe." If given an open ended goal the computer will do the goal into infinity. If you give them an abstract, they might just take us out of the equation to make the abstract concrete. I remember a video about scenario where an AI was given the task of penning the perfect letter for handwritten letters for a card company. The AI took this to the logical extreme by realizing that every persons idea of perfect was arbitrary and killed off all of humanity to get rid of all the variables. So yes, a few minor rules to limit the direct action of a AI is a good idea and limit their tasks to something that can be reasonably obtained without having to take us out of the equation first.

Or in other words, don't deal in absolutes.
 
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