Remove ads

A Green Sun Illuminates the Void (ZnT/Exalted)

Reader mode
biigoh said:
She likely planned it that way as a counter to the sidereals who might decide to 'vanish' her...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Considering that they attempted to vanish her more than a few times, she was probably right.


The Sidereals are kind of dicks.


--------------

Epsilon

Exalted: Everyone is kind of a dick.
 
Actually, the Solars just wanted an assurance that the MF wouldn't war against them. Even the vote for that was highly contested.

Autocthion is not a nice guy. He's a sick anti-social nerd who pulled the Primordial version of a school shooting.

I have a slightly more idealistic view of the First Age than Epsilon. I view it as a utopia with Dystopian undercurrents that grew stronger over time.
 
Robotninja said:
Actually, the Solars just wanted an assurance that the MF wouldn't war against them. Even the vote for that was highly contested.


Autocthion is not a nice guy. He's a sick anti-social nerd who pulled the Primordial version of a school shooting.


I have a slightly more idealistic view of the First Age than Epsilon. I view it as a utopia with Dystopian undercurrents that grew stronger over time.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Then you shouldn't read Dreams of the First Age... Heroic doesn't mean Nice or even Good.
 
Valiran said:
In short, Primordial rule had serious issues, the Solar Deliberative had serious issues, the Dragon-blooded Shogunate had serious issues, and the Realm has serious issues. Methinks that this goes to prove that none of these things are the "right" choice, and that a new system needs to be put in place. Preferably one where someone figures out a way to resolve the situation with the Neverborn, and the Yozis get rehabilitated into actually entities that you would want to have around. Except for the Ebon Dragon. He just needs to die.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The correct choice is to let the Tripartite grab everything.

Robotninja said:
Autocthion is not a nice guy. He's a sick anti-social nerd who pulled the Primordial version of a school shooting.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
A) He's sick in the literal sense, having cancer makes you no less a nice guy. Even if it's infectious and evil.
B) He did that because all of his brothers and sisters screwed him up and fucked with him right up until the primordial war. They pulled apart everything he owned, screwed with him personally and went out of their way to screw up his life in ways only god beings can. Compared to everyone else in the setting, his response is reasonable.
C) Remember the comparison, Autochthon just needs to be a nice guy compared to people like Malfeas, the Deliberative and the Ebon Dragon. In setting, he counts.
 
biigoh said:
Then you shouldn't read Dreams of the First Age... Heroic doesn't mean Nice or even Good.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ehh, you can find go support for that possition in Dreams of the First Age, to be honest. The first age has lots of examples of utter suck against a general background of prosperity. The Age of Sorrows has lots of examples of prosperity against a general background of utter suck.


But that isn't really the question.


The question is whether the Solars would inevidably blast creation out of existance. The Sidreals said they would, that it was better for creation to be a crueler, harsher less hospitable, and duller place then risk destruction at the Solars hands. Against almost cirtain destruction that stand might very well be perfectly ligitimate.


The big argument against it is that there are plenty of things out there to om nom nom creation that are outside of fate (and hince, Sidereal divination) that the Solars stopped.


Which then turns into a question of whish is the lesser risk. The mad Solars, or the Horrors outside fate waiting to pull the currtain down. There is't a canon answer to that question, because it's a question that must be awswered by each individual group as is best form their game.
 
biigoh said:
They weren't cannibals in the beginning. They only went cannibalistic when they escaped into the wild when a well meaning lunar let them free in the Ursupation.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You are correct, not that this makes their creation and manner of keeping any less atrocious.

Hell, I haven't even gotten into what they wanted to do with the Neverborn, aside from waking them up and stealing the secrets of horrific death-magic for one-and-all. Eesh.

Robotninja]Actually said:
The big argument against it is that there are plenty of things out there to om nom nom creation that are outside of fate (and hince, Sidereal divination) that the Solars stopped.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Really?

There was the Fair Folk, who weren't a threat, thanks to being bound by sworn oaths. They were only let back in when the Deathlords (Solars) gave them permission. Thanks for that, Solars.

There were the dead, who weren't a threat, thanks to being the absolute weakest supernatural creatures in the setting. They only became a threat with the creation of the Deathlords. Thanks for that, Solars.

There were the demons and Yozis, who weren't a threat, thanks to being isolated cases, unsummonable, or bound by unbreakable surrender oaths. They only became a threat with the creation of the Green Sun Princes. Thanks for that, Solars.

The idea that the Dragonblooded could hold the fort with hidden Sidereal aid and Lunars prowling the outskirts was totally reasonable, especially with the kind of tech they had available. But there's unforeseeable (outside of Fate) and then there's unforeseeable (okay, what the hell). Kejak didn't consider stuff outside of Fate a massive threat because it wasn't.
 
Stuff outside of fate wasn't a big threat... Because the Solars were there. Even if they're weren't Solars to crack open the Tombs, the Dreams of the Neverborn still wreaked the Underworld, and through the Underworld the Shadowlands, and through the Shadowlands Creation. Their nightmares have eaten whole cities. The Deathlords sped things up, but beyond not being Solars anymore, are sort of the Sidereals fault to begin with, the Neverborn would always be a deadly threat to creation without something like the neverborn to ward them off.


Those deals you talked about, keeping the Wyld at bay? The Eclipses forced them out of the Wyld. They were invited for during the great contagion, but that was just to get there attention that the defence of creation were down. The Ishvara never stopped being a threat - they were merely so rare it was easy to pretend they weren't. Not five hundred years after the Solars were cast out, and what do we have? Why an Ishvara! Look at that!


The Yozi never stopped being a threat either. You know the most interesting thing about the whole Return of the Scarlet Empress plot? The Green Sun Princes, all of them, are nothing more then Cat's Paws. Nothing the do is perticular essencal to the Ebon Dragons escape plan - all they do is generate sound and noise and chaos for his REAL escape attempt. They're basicly irrelivent. And you know what could never happen while the solars are around? Any of it.


Pretending that the solars are the end all and be all of the threats to creation is convenent. It isn't true. Some of the threats are worse because of them, but they were all there to begin with, and while the presence of Solars might have brought some of them to a head sooner, they would be almost utterly intractible without them.


So no, there isn't a clear cut right answer. Lock them up in the Jade Prison, and you get eaten. Leave them out and you get exploded in one of their experments. Which choice is the lesser threat? No way of knowing.
 
Actually what kept the Fair Folk out of Creation was a series of automated defenses at the perimiter of Creation that annihilated them if they tried to invade. The Deathlords literally gave the Fair Folk the codes needed to break in past those geomantic weapon systems.


--------------

Epsilon
 
Nameless_Flame said:
...But I believe it was the Solars who made those automated defense systems to begin with, correct?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Actually, no, Autochthon did.. With that said, most of the 'Inescapable Death Traps' were built after he left, since Autochthon's Flaw of Invulnerability (At least when it comes to making deathtraps) demands that he give people caught in his deathtraps a fair opportunity to escape and progress (Usually in the form of a riddle, a challenge, or something along those lines).


That said, I'm not a Solar Apologist by any stretch of the definition, they absolutely needed to be pruned by the end of the Era of Dreams (Since the higher ups had so much power by that point that nobody lower then them could ever matter, and they were going completely--rather then mostly--stark raving mad). I'm just saying that the First Age wasn't nearly as terrible as some people think. As long as you were in a law abiding part of the Deliberative (At least until Wyldhand hit, and it Was the event that triggered the spiral down towards the Usurpation anyway, the Moral Event Horizon of the Solars). Life was actually pretty decent.
 
Starfield said:
Hasn't this discussion drifted too far off-topic by now? It is not like if the Solars was good or bad matter in this story.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Nein! This is a thread which involves Exalted! It is mandatory to get into arguments about the First Age Solars, the Primordials, the Rightfulness of the Primordial War and the Usurpation. Especially when Green Sun Princes are involved. Some of these arguments even had validity when applied to Tristain.


And at least it's not a mechanics argument. :rolleyes:
 
From my understanding, the main 'wrongness' with the Sidereal choice of eliminating the Solars was that they made the choice unilaterally. They did not speak with the gods or the Lunars on the matter.
 
They made the choice under the directives of their own great curse, which is designed to force them down increasingly dark roads of fate that culmenate in the destruction of creation. Not talking to the gods is a minor issue against that, and also an inevidable concequnce of it.


Really, one of the best things to come out of the death of the solars is that the Sidereals no longer all talk to each other. Their curse is strongest and most destructive when they are together.
 
hyzmarca said:
Obviously, Green Sun Princes should rule Creation. They're as powerful as Solars, but they're not insane.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yet. On the other hand, one part of their charmset is the Ebon Dragon, and another is the Silent Wind. Neither of which is good for mortals at all.
 
Yet. On the other hand, one part of their charmset is the Ebon Dragon, and another is the Silent Wind. Neither of which is good for mortals at all.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'd argue that most of them probably are insane, given that they actually are Infernals and all that. The difference is, they aren't necessarily going to slide into the depths of insanity that Solars eventually will. So, they start of a bit mad to begin with, whereas Solars start off sane and go apocalyptically batshit as time goes on. At the very least, the combination of Urge and Coadjucator produces effects like insanity; if it was anybody else hearing voices and suffering an irresistible urge to set up cults that worship the Devil, you'd throw them into a rubber room sharpish. ;):p
 
EarthScorpion said:
Nein! This is a thread which involves Exalted! It is mandatory to get into arguments about the First Age Solars, the Primordials, the Rightfulness of the Primordial War and the Usurpation. Especially when Green Sun Princes are involved. Some of these arguments even had validity when applied to Tristain.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Especially since you've strongly hinted Louise Past Life is Merela. That being the Solar given the Mandate of Heaven by old Sol himself and who personally presided over some of the massive fuckups of the First Age (and was probably responsible for more than one...).

And at least it's not a mechanics argument. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
(nervous chuckle)


-------------

Epsilon
 
Morality arguments in Exalted are absolutely necessary, because it's of their failure to maintain moral integrity as rulers of the world (aided by your friendly neighbourhood Great Curse man) that the Solars were cast down.
 
Valiran said:
In short, there is no simple solution to Creation's problems, and serious thinking needs to be done on what system should replace the current one. One thing is for sure, it needs to have abundant safeguards in place to prevent any more catastrophes from occurring.

It also makes me wonder what Creation might have been like if the Exalted had never been afflicted by the Great Curse. It certainly would have been better than the way things are now.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
There is a simple solution to Creation's problems.

Destroy Creation, kill all the Yozi, kill all the surviving Primordials, throw Yu-Shan and all the gods into Oblivion, throw all the surviving Exalted into Oblivion, then rebuild the world to be sane and reasonable and design your new humans with a soul structure that is completely and totally incompatible with Exaltation or Essence use. Then you either throw yourself into Oblivion in order to erase the last vestige of Exalted insanity from the universe or, if you're concerned about the Wyld and want to watch over your new Creation, you apotheosize into a titan whose entire thematic is being a sane, reasonable, and personable person who understands the perspective of others.
 
Cornuthaum said:
Morality arguments in Exalted are absolutely necessary, because it's of their failure to maintain moral integrity as rulers of the world (aided by your friendly neighbourhood Great Curse man) that the Solars were cast down.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The problem being, there is explicitly no such thing as intrinsic morality in Creation. All notion of morality there is based upon the opinions of those in power. This is a classic problem of having those who define what is right and wrong being fallible beings and rewriting the rules to serve themselves.


The UCS is the embodiment of Virtue, but that doesn't make him a morally upright being. It merely makes him emotionally driven to act in specific patterns.


There is no possible solution until and unless they get morality defined by the Shinma, which would allow real clear-cut understanding and universal definition of morality at the fundamental level.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top