A Green Sun Illuminates the Void (ZnT/Exalted)

Robotninja said:
The Solars were hardly a monolithic entity. Some of them were horrific near the end, but some of them were also still heroic figures of virtue. At the least, Solars have a track record of several thousand years before things went bad. The Terrestials. . . Do not.
There's also the fact that the Solars were bearing the lion's share of the weight of the Great Curse, and still managed to maintain sanity for an impressive span of time. It's been implied that the vast majority of Solar atrocities were due to creeping insanity over time, and that the Great Curse had a stronger hold during the First Age.
 
Terrestrials also have to earn their power, after a fashion. Just being born of Dragonblooded parents doesn't make you Dragonblooded. You've got to train your ass off, and even then it's not a guarantee. It takes lots of grueling hard work.

I really want to play a game of Exalted now. I'd try to be Dragonblooded, if I could. It might be neat.
 
Alratan said:
The Church of England burnt plenty of people at the stake.
Which is *not* the same as actually instigating a Crusade or Inquisition.

Alratan said:
Yes, they are. One of the sore tenets of both factions of the Immaculates is that the Anathema are soul eating Yozi worshippers who if allowed to run free will damn Creation to barely imaginable horrors.
Even some Dragonblood within the Realm aren't that absolute. The Immaculate Order is, but they aren't everything.


They are certainly not going to whip out an army if they hear about a Solar/Lunar in the Scavenger Lands, but they will verify what the heck is going on and then take actions based on the intelligence. A solar that deposed an evil warlord and then disappeared? No, not worth an army to hunt him down. They'll leave tracking him to military intelligence.

Alratan said:
Exactly. They have rejected the Immaculate Order's post-Contagion innovations that glorify the Realm. The status and nature of the Anathema are not amongst them, they are the fundamentals of the faith and in large part justification for the Terrestrials status.
It is in degree though. While they don't disagree with Anathema being 'evil' they aren't rushing around to hunt them down at the first sign of appearance. It would have to become a fact that the Anathema is a threat before they directly acted.

Alratan said:
That's one way of looking at it. The other was that by the time of the Usurpation Creation was a living nightmare where solars warped people into living instruments and wrung symphonies of screams from their tortured flesh.


Edit: It's notable that one of the reasons that the Yozi are OK with their GSPs having their intact Past Life memories is because the conduct of the solars by the end was so horrific that Lytek has to whitewash the memories he leaves behind when he cleans them, and the Yozi think that having the GSPs remembering and being influenced by them is likely to encourage them to make Creation into Hell.


That's not high praise.
Er, that's not fully accurate either. It's stated that Lytek removes their memories because human minds are not designed to be able to encompass immortal memories, infinitely.
 
Robotninja said:
The Solars were hardly a monolithic entity. Some of them were horrific near the end, but some of them were also still heroic figures of virtue. At the least, Solars have a track record of several thousand years before things went bad. The Terrestials. . . Do not.
Hahaha.


No.


The actual history of the First Age went like this:


Solars win! Yeah!

Hey, lets genocide and enslave every nonhuman race because FUCK NONHUMANS!

Autocthon: Uh.... BYE NOW! (pop)

Gaia: Holy shi... I mean... I must look for the Shining Answer. Love you Luna, later! (fly into the Wyld)

Hey, lets all fight each other in a massive war that will nearly ruin Creation!

Wait, we nearly ruined Creation. Merela gets to be Queen and we'll all play nice and live in Meru together. Totes friends forever!

Lets expand Creation's borders!

After a few hundred years this is boring, lets fight each other again!

Wait, we almost ruined everything again. Let's all calm down.

Huh? We can die of old age? FIGHT EACH OTHER AGAIN!

Okay, we almost ruined Creation again so this time we're all going to just calm down and work on making Creation better for every...

(Program: Creation has encounter a critical error, Abort, Retry, Fail?)

Reboot...

Hahaha! That was awkward. But this time we totally have everything under...

AFTERSHOCK PRIMORDIAL WILL FUCK YOU UP!

Whew. Well, that almost destroyed Creation again but NOW, for certain, we have a peaceful coexistence with each other. In exchange for everyone playing nice, you can decide not to be part of the Deliberative and do Whatever You Want to your own lands.

Hey, lets crack upon the tombs of the dead Primordials and use their blampheous secrets to unleash the plague of Necromancy upon Creation! That sounds fun!

Also lets bioengineer entire races of slaves!

Also, lets rewrite the fundamental rules of Creation to give the equivalent of nuclear weapons to anyone who spends too much time watching the clouds!

Also, lets annihilate an entire country the size of the US and horribly murder all the citizens within its borders for a wargame!



Yeah, the Solar rulership was basically periods of about three hundred to six hundred years of relative peace, followed by the Solars nearly destroying everything on a regular basis.


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Epsilon
 
Winged Knight said:
Terrestrials also have to earn their power, after a fashion. Just being born of Dragonblooded parents doesn't make you Dragonblooded. You've got to train your ass off, and even then it's not a guarantee. It takes lots of grueling hard work.
Wrong. Being born of Dragonblooded parents is all that it takes. Terrestial Exaltation is decided from birth. Training and hard work just make you a more competent Exalt when it finally happens.
 
Robotninja said:
Wrong. Being born of Dragonblooded parents is all that it takes. Terrestial Exaltation is decided from birth. Training and hard work just make you a more competent Exalt when it finally happens.
They don't always Exalt.
 
Aaron Peori said:
Yeah, the Solar rulership was basically periods of about three hundred to six hundred years of relative peace, followed by the Solars nearly destroying everything on a regular basis.
And even with all that, life was still better for the average mortal under Solar rule.

The average mortal on the ground isn't going to notice the near-apocalypses or the sadistic debauchery of 300 guys who lives far far away. The average mortal on the ground is going to notice the AI internet and the magitech factories that are constantly churning out useful labor-saving devices.

Quality of life for the average mortal was high under the Solars and was constantly improving. There was plenty of mortals beyond the reach of such QOL enhancements, but that number was becoming fewer and fewer as the Solars gradually expanded their infrastructure.

The magi-industrial infrastructure of Creation went to shit after the Usurpation because it could only be maintained by the Solars. The Sidereals know this, they expected the entire infrastructure to collapse, and they accepted it as a necessary evil. The result is exactly what you'd expect when an industrial civilization collapses to pre-industrial tech levels.
 
hyzmarca said:
The magi-industrial infrastructure of Creation went to shit after the Usurpation because it could only be maintained by the Solars. The Sidereals know this, they expected the entire infrastructure to collapse, and they accepted it as a necessary evil. The result is exactly what you'd expect when an industrial civilization collapses to pre-industrial tech levels.
What? No. The Shogunate was a lower tech Industrial society. It still had Creation-wide banks, the sale of war bonds, and general magitech use, even if they tended to be more "technological", and require maintenance. It was decaying down to a stable point which could be maintained by the Dragon Blooded.


It was the Great Contagion / Balorian Crusade one-two punch, which killed 90% of everything and massively reduced the size of Creation, which pushed Creation back into the Bronze Ages. Just as a plague which killed 90% of everything alive would do to us.
 
hyzmarca said:
And even with all that, life was still better for the average mortal under Solar rule.
I guess that depends on who you consider an average mortal.


I mean, the mortals ont he Blessed Isle have it pretty sweet in the Second Age. Sure they have to work the fields, but they get free universal health care, free education on demand, literally perfect weather all year round, the cities have lights and internal plumbing and hot and cold running water and so on and so forth. Living in the Blessed Isle is pretty awesome.


It's out in the Threshold and beyond that you get people dying of cholera.


Now, in the Blessed Isle of the First Age things were even better. You lived in an apartment complex with universal internet access (with the understanding that the internet was a sentient being who obeyed the orders of the ruling class without questions, could censor any information they felt the need to keep from you and would report everything it knew about you to any of the Solars who bothered to ask), health care, education, plumbing and so on.


OR you lived in one of the Threshold states... were there was a better than even chance your Solar ruler would decide to turn you all into living crystaline statues, or into bizarre alien squid monsters, or enslave your will with magical artifacts, or breed you into a race of slaves, or just murder you all in a war game or force you to live in a state of constant warfare while the "experiment with the process of exaltation" or abandon your entire province to the Fair Folk and let them eat everyone because he just couldn't give a shit about you when there were cooler things to be doing in Meru or just murder you all in a fit of pique one day.


Of course, if he didn't, then everything could be awesome. I mean, you could live in Magic Bollywoodland! How awesome would living in a constant muscial be!


Hope you win the birth lottery.


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Epsilon
 
Hope you win the birth lottery.
Exactly the same thing could be said of the real world. Obviously, we don't have insane God-Kings turning people into living crystal (or, if we do, they're being remarkably discreet about it), but large segments of the Earth are hilariously unpleasant to live in. So long as you aren't living there. If you are, they're just hellish. There's not a great deal of difference between living in rural Congo and being murdered for the benefit of an insane Solar's wargames; they're both brutal and generally short affairs that you will not enjoy at all.


Basically, while yes, the Solars were insane, large numbers of people had a fucking fantastic life under the Solar Deliberative. Large numbers of people also had an absolutely terrible life. Now, everybody except a handful of Dragonblooded and wealthy merchants suffers through a pre-industrial shitfest. Yeah, you might not get turned into a horrible squid thing or murdered in wargames, but you well get eaten by (or sold to) the Fae, killed by bandits, dye of an agonising disease or starve to death. Or, of course, have horrifying things done to you by the Deathlords... who were First Age Solars, and so presumably can turn you into a squid monster.


So, currently, Creation has almost all of the disadvantages of Solar rule, plus more besides, but none of the advantages. Yes, I can see that the Sidereals' plan is working perfectly. :p
 
HolySeraph said:
With wrong facts and general bias, this reads more like a propaganda piece to me.
I was going by memory but lets look at the actual history here then.

Primordial War
Ochre Fountain Era, last about 100 years. Solars fucking murder everything non-human. Period marked by lots of warfare between individual Solars and various races of Creation.

Ochre Fountain ends in massive war on Meru, ends with the establishment of the First Deliberative.

First Deliberative, lasts about 500 years. Mountain Folk enslaved en masse. Autochon sees the writing on the wall and makes himself scarce. Period of relative peace. Ends when the Fair Folk invade the completely unprotected borders of Creation because the Solars didn't give a shit about securing the borders of Creation. Creation almost ends, but the Exalts get their shit together in time to stop it.

Unfurling Horizon Era, lasts about 600 years. Solars ignore center of Creation as they expand the borders. Ends when the Aftershock Primordial reappears in the middle of Creation and engages in brutal guerilla fighting which almost destroys Creation for one hundred years before the Exalts finally put him down.

Shining Reflection Era, last about 500 tears. Probably the most peaceful of the eras, mainly consisted of rebuilding everything destroyed in the Aftershock War but replacing it with New and Better stuff while they were at it.

Then a Solar died of old age.

Thousand Struggles Era, lasts about 800 years. Constant inter-Solar fighting which only ends when the Solars literally destroy Creation in the Time of Cascading Years.

That's okay, they fix it. Of course, billions of mortals died or had even worse fates, but meh.

Second Deliberative Era, lasts about seven hundred years. Time of relative peace as all the Solars are too shellshocked by the Thousand Struggles Era and Time of Cascading Years to do much of anything. Mainly focuses on, once again, rebuildin everything destroyed in the last war. Also, Solars secure their absolute control of Creation in every single way.

Era of Dreams, lasts until the Usurpation (?? years). Things slowly begin to unravel more and more. Black Nabir Concordant releases Necromancy on the world, Operation Wyldhand occurs, Salinan Working done, more and more Solars transform their lands from Deliberative controlled zones (who have to respect basic human rights) to Tributaries (which do not), constant and needless expansion of military power, growth of the Cauldronist faction which wants to break Creation and remake it in their image, Solars increasingly stop listening to the Unconquered Sun and claiming his authority for themselves and so on and so forth.

So I missed a few things and got some out of order. But the First Age was not three thousand years of peace.

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Epsilon
 
Screwball said:
Exactly the same thing could be said of the real world.
Yup. The Solars sure are awesome! I mean, they can make a world just as shitty as this one. Go Solars!

Now, everybody except a handful of Dragonblooded and wealthy merchants suffers through a pre-industrial shitfest.
No, reread the Blessed Isle book and my post. People on the Blessed Isle live in relative comfort. They have free health care, long lives, magical conveinces and so on.


The Realm is probably closer to Victorian England than it is to Ancient Rome.


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Epsilon
 
Aaron Peori said:
OR you lived in one of the Threshold states... were there was a better than even chance
Um. . . No. Those examples are the outliers. I do not recall reading that life is a hellish nightmare in the Theshold in Dreams of the First Age. I do remember reading about how much life sucks everywhere in Creation nowadays.


Plus many of these things are kept secret or downplayed because fellow Solars would disapprove. Also, the fact that the Unconquered Sun, the personification of virtue, approved of Solars for most of the First Age says a great deal.


Plus even with all of those crimes, and many more, the First Age was still better than the second for most mortals. There were far less slaves, less toil, less illness, etc. . .
 
Really, the Incarna deserve all the blame. They basically shoved their responsibilities onto their Chosen so that they'd have more free time to play X-Box. Those Chosen, being human at the core, were ill suited to positions of such cosmic importance. The Great Curse magnified things considerably, but the Creation Ruling Mandate was always an act of dereliction on the part of the Incarna. This could be forgiven, if not for the fact that they made no attempt to correct things. The Unconquered Sun didn't just turn his back on the Solars as they fell to madness; he turned his back on all Creation. The other Incarna were equally negligent. They all stood by and effectively gave their Chosen cart-blanche to do whatever the hell.

If any one of them had seen fit to exercise even the slightest bit of responsibility towards their Chosen, things wouldn't have fallen nearly as far. But nope, they were all too busy playing the Games to care about insignificant things like Fair Folk trying to destroy Creation, zombie-Primordials trying to destroy Creation, Yozis trying to usurp Creation, or Exalted almost destroying Creation by accident more than once.

Heck, evidence suggests that the Maidens know about the Ebon Dragon's real get out of hell plan (Jupiter and Saturn certainly have some idea about it, even if they don't know the exact details) and they've not done a single thing to stop it. That's somewhat understandable given their natures (the Maiden of Secrets isn't going to blab to everyone and the Maiden of Endings isn't going to try to stop the world from ending), but it still sticks of shirking their duties.
 
Robotninja said:
Um. . . No. Those examples are the outliers. I do not recall reading that life is a hellish nightmare in the Theshold in Dreams of the First Age. I do remember reading about how much life sucks everywhere in Creation nowadays.
A significant portion of Creation during the Era of Dreams is a hellish nightmare and its getting worse all the time.

Plus many of these things are kept secret or downplayed because fellow Solars would disapprove. Also, the fact that the Unconquered Sun, the personification of virtue, approved of Solars for most of the First Age says a great deal.
The Unconquered Sun's approval is pro forma. He never bothers to look.

Plus even with all of those crimes, and many more, the First Age was still better than the second for most mortals. There were far less slaves, less toil, less illness, etc. . .
The key thing here is that when it sucks for people in the First Age it sucks much more than it does in the Second Age. Sure, maybe nobody dies of cholera. But in the second age entire cities aren't transformed into living crystal or squid-monster. As bad as the Perfect is, he is much nicer than the person who created his staff ever was, and that person had access to the orb which made it even worse.

And I'm not certain there are less slaves. I mean, the Dragonblooded don't have entire races of slaves, after all.


The key to understanding the First Age is that it was not neccessarily better than the Second Age. It was BIGGER and more extreme, in all directions.


The best parts of the First Age are better than the best parts of the Second Age, no doubt there.


The worst parts of the First Age are also far worse than the worst parts of the Second Age, also no doubt there.


The First Age was a place of precarious balance. It swung between peace and war with surprising ease. Heck, did you miss the part where the Solars engaged in a world devestating civil war for longer than the Sacrlet Empire has existed. Or the fact that the Solars managed to preside over the one and only time when Creation actually was destroyed?


---------------

Epsilon
 
Aaron Peori said:
A significant portion of Creation during the Era of Dreams is a hellish nightmare and its getting worse all the time.
Absolutely untrue according to DotFA. Actual Prefectures mandate minimum standards of living for all mortals, which largely resembles modern day society. Slavery is forbidden, and all mortals are entitled to decent food, education, and the like. The only way you get to sidestep this is by being a Tribituary--essentially giving up your vote in the Deliberative, as well as it's support. Basically, you declare that you want to be a Rogue State. For obvious reasons, this usually only happened with the oldest (And by this point, craziest) Solars. Even then, not all Tribituaries are hellholes, Tzatli counts as one, and putting aside Bright Shattered Ice's obsession with everything being nice, tidy, and pleasant (At least on the surface), it actually surpasses most first world nations.

Mind you, bad shit happened on occasion, but it was never condoned by the Deliberative as a whole. The oldest Solars tended to be horrible people who overshadowed everyone else, it wasn't a universal 'Fuck The World!' sentiment though.

With that said, yes, the Solars tended to go bonkers in society wide Limit Breaks on occasion, usually when something about their society winds up being invalidated. (Wartime shifting to peace? Everyone fights over who gets to rule. You find out that you're not immortal, ensuring that you might not get your chance to be in charge? Everyone does a power grab at the same time, leading to huge warfare. I'm not apologizing for their faults, and they needed to be removed from power.

This doesn't mean Creation was a crapsack during those days though.

And the 'Nonhuman Pogrom' had nothing to do with 'Let's kill everything that wasn't human!' and more to do with 'Hey, these are the guys that fought us in the big war, and they're Still Fucking Around with us. If they won't submit to the new order, they get to fall down'. The Mountain Folk was a problem, but the fact remains that all the Solar's primordial war tech started Shutting Down all of a sudden, and the Jadeborn were now in a position to do a lot of potential damage. It's also true that Autochthon was Not Trusted by the Incarna either, every last one of them has an Intimacy ranging from Pity (At best) to Fear (At worst). Geasing the Jadeborn was a gesture the Sun determined as a compromise to keep another world war from breaking out.
 
Alectai said:
Absolutely untrue according to DotFA. Actual Prefectures mandate minimum standards of living for all mortals, which largely resembles modern day society. Slavery is forbidden, and all mortals are entitled to decent food, education, and the like.
Slavery is forbidden if you're "human". If you're a slave race, however, slavery is just fine.

The only way you get to sidestep this is by being a Tribituary--essentially giving up your vote in the Deliberative, as well as it's support.
The number of tributaries has been increasing and the restriction placed on them has been relaxed. This is a big enough problem it is a major ongoing concern in the Deliberative.

Even then, not all Tribituaries are hellholes, Tzatli counts as one, and putting aside Bright Shattered Ice's obsession with everything being nice, tidy, and pleasant (At least on the surface), it actually surpasses most first world nations.
I'm certain Oceania was great to live in so long as you didn't upset Big Brother.

Mind you, bad shit happened on occasion, but it was never condoned by the Deliberative as a whole. The oldest Solars tended to be horrible people who overshadowed everyone else, it wasn't a universal 'Fuck The World!' sentiment though.
Eight hundred year long world devestating civil war.

This doesn't mean Creation was a crapsack during those days though.
No, it was a complex world. With hieghts greater than the second age can reach, and depths deeper than the second age can sink.

And the 'Nonhuman Pogrom' had nothing to do with 'Let's kill everything that wasn't human!' and more to do with 'Hey, these are the guys that fought us in the big war, and they're Still Fucking Around with us.
Remember Heartwind.


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Epsilon
 
Tavar said:
As for the Maidens, how is it shirking their duty. Their duty is endings and secrets, respectively. Ending creation is certainly an ending, as would ending the Yozi imprisonment. As for secrets, telling people what's going on would be a betrayal of her purview.
They were made to keep Creation running properly. That's their duty. Secrets and endings are their jobs. They were assigned those offices so that they could serve the goal of keeping Creation running, because division of labor works. It is dysfunctional, malignant even, for any official to put the functions of his office above the goals of the organization as a whole. That sort of attitude leads to catastrophe. Of course, it should be no surprise that Yu-Shan's bureaucracy is dysfunctional.

And really, the Maiden of Secrets is the head of the Celestial CIA. She knows secrets so that they can be used or acted upon as necessary to preserve Creation.
 
Tavar said:
The Maiden of secrets can no more share all of what she knows that the Ebon Dragon can be like the Unconquered Sun. It's not in her nature. Would it be better if it was? Probably, but that's not how she was designed.
If you go by the Glories right up the trick isn't whether Jupiter wants to reveal the secret or not, but whether she is "going to" as a part of samsara.


Samsara is basically hard determinism. When a Maiden uses her charms to see into samsara in regards to her purview (say if Jupiter uses it to see whether the Great Curse exists) she gets an idea of whether something is going to happen. If the Maiden then acts in a manner consistent with that thing occuring, then the Maiden is basically omnipotent. She will ensure it comes to pass. The problem is that she can't not make it come to pass. If the Maiden sees an outcome that she finds personally repugnant but that must come to pass according to samsara she will still do everything in her power to make it come to pass because she has no other choice.


So your opinion of her concealing the Great Curse depends on whether you think she learned about it in some mundane fashion or whether she learned it via her Charms. If she learned it in the mundane way, then she can choose to do with the information what she wants. If she learned it via her Charms then she can only reveal the information when it must be revealed and she has no choice in the matter.


Though speaking of Maidens don't think all this focus on Seista's extended family made me forget about a certain Miss Emmanuelle Leterme our incoming "Gallian astronomer".


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Epsilon
 
I would point out that the Mountain Folk were not enslaved and their status was chosen by Autochon, admittly after the Solar put forth their issue to him(I don't remember in what manner. Autochon just agrees, geas the Mountain Folk and then leaves without a word.


It was in the Solars' interest to raise the standards of living as they did not know who they could incarnate as.


As for the many wars, I will point out the many centuries of peace and even our own history isn't that peaceful if not the same extremes.
 
HolySeraph said:
I would point out that the Mountain Folk were not enslaved and their status was chosen by Autochon, admittly after the Solar put forth their issue to him(I don't remember in what manner. Autochon just agrees, geas the Mountain Folk and then leaves without a word.
The Solars informed Autochthon that they had no intention of sharing the world with the Mountain Folk, and that unless he crippled them, they would slaughter them down to the last being. Autochthon loved his Mountain Folk, and so he reduced them as commanded, and then fled Creation to wait out the inevitable breakdown of everything.

I'd like to emphasise that last part. Autochthon was the Primordial embodiment of the mad-but-generally-well-meaning scientist. He was this guy, with an Excellency. He was a master of engineering things, perfecting ideas, but when it came to consequences he was utterly blind. He made the First, and just left him alone. He was like "Well, made that, he's good, time to move on." It took a Moses-esque megaquest on the part of the First to actually get him to consider that he couldn't just create sentient life and then leave it there without a purpose. Autochthon created seven-hundred respawning indestructible superweapons for the express purpose of fighting his siblings, purely to get back at them, and then was genuinely horrified when they actually killed one of them.

And yet he still had enough foresight to see that something bad was on the horizon in the First Age.

HolySeraph said:
As for the many wars, I will point out the many centuries of peace and even our own history isn't that peaceful if not the same extremes.
The Deliberative waged an eight-hundred year war against itself that scarred the very universe, purely out of competitiveness. The massive loss of life was not considered overly significant, as more mortals could be Wyld-Shaped into existence. The trigger was the realisation that they could die of old age, and might not be able to get one-over their rivals politically.

The Deliberative turned an entire archipelago in the West into a behemoth-ridden Death World, and then dumped trained soldiers, random civilians, and Wyld-Shaped control groups into it with varying amounts of explanation and/or guidance. They then recorded the whole thing. This was a continuous and ongoing experiment to gauge the necessary conditions for a Celestial Exaltation. It was also popular reality TV.

The Deliberative flooded a continent's worth of land in the North with massive amounts of Wyld energy, deliberately breaking the borders of Creation around it to let in behemoths, raksha, and unshaped of all kinds. They did not evacuate or even warn the millions of people currently living there. They also did not bother to account for the massive strain this put on the Loom of Fate. This was a military exercise, designed to keep generals in trim in case another Primordial returned to Creation from the Wyld. It was also considered damn good fun by the participants. The decision to keep the civilians there was lauded as increasing the realism, and preparations were in place for a second run at it when the Usurpation came about.

One Solar used Craft: Genesis to turn an entire town into a living and geiger-esque work of art (it received fairly good reviews). Another used custom artifacts to mentally bind their city-state into complete mind-tearing subservience, and campaigned for similar efficiency-increasing measures to be taken throughout Creation (she had a fair degree of support). Another had her peers repeatedly murdered under suspicion of being akuma, in order to plunder their scientific discoveries (she was regarded as a laudable genius).

Another turned the living carcass of a Primordial into the foundations of their coast-city, and had hidden commands written into its brain. We don't know what they were, but they caused the Dragonblooded officer who discovered them to immediately request a transfer (it was a lovely holiday resort). An entire Circle of Solars tormented their newest member with mind-breaking Charms and constant inhuman bullying, before finally presenting him with the bloody eye of his father in a jeweled case, causing him to commit suicide (a Celestial Exalt, by definition chosen from the greatest, most unbreakable heroes in the world, was driven to suicide).

One Solar created a race of cannibalistic humans that were incredibly sensitive to light and heat, and then kept them in the South. This was to prevent them from ever leaving her shaded pleasure-dome (it was the equivalent of Alton Towers for Solars). The admiral in charge of the entire West passed the time by raping his Dragonblooded subordinates, and binding them into silence regarding his acts, lest he be demoted. When asked why he didn't just rape mortals (since few would care) or use Solar magic to make his victims love him, he asserted that the fun was in the resistance; mortals couldn't resist him, and those who loved him wouldn't.

Laws were passed preventing slavery. A loophole was added allowing the slavery of slave-races. The creation of sentient "artificial races" as anything more than curiosities begins here (there were more than eighty recorded artificial races in existence before the Usurpation). An idealistic Solar attached a minor rider on one of her proposals that, once passed, allowed her to rewrite a fair chunk of reality to the level of a Adamant Circle Spell. It got through, and she cast the Working before anyone could say otherwise (she was regarded as an up-and-coming role model).

Desus.

The high priest of the Solar Deliberative, a man called virtuous and just by all, used an Essence-draining system based on the dragonlines of Creation, that resulted in mass drought, famine and illness for the people of his fiefdom (he used this to water his lawn). An entire political movement existed on the principle that the Solars should utterly collapse Creation into the Wyld and then start again. Sure, the only survivors would be Celestial Exalts, some Terrestrials, and anyone fortunate enough to have contacts in Heaven, but they could remake the world in their image (this was one of the more prominent parties in the Deliberative)!

The only restriction on the morality and humanity of Solars during the First Age was the rule that they would be cut off from Deliberative resources if they chose to act against the majority. This rule was removed when put to a vote, allowing them to do whatever they chose (the decisive speaker in the vote was the high priest of the Deliberative, who used the Unconquered Sun's name in vain).

When the First Age was good, it was very very good.

When the First Age was bad, It was very very bad.

The only significant difference between the Time of Glories and the Time of Exalts was that humans were the top race, rather than Dragon Kings, and Solars were the top magical being, rather than Primordials. If there was an improvement there, it existed only because Solar madness came with age, rather than being built-in (though arrogance and entitlement often did the work a Limit Break couldn't), and Solar madness was generally rather more human (or at least, more predictable) than Primordial madness. That was it.

But ultimately, mortals don't care whether Adrian is sweating behemoths out of frustration at the Games of Divinity, or if a Solar has released behemoths in order to film a nature documentary - they're still being eaten.
 
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Valiran said:
In short, Primordial rule had serious issues, the Solar Deliberative had serious issues, the Dragon-blooded Shogunate had serious issues, and the Realm has serious issues.
Basically, yeah. Although a large part of the Shogunate's issues were infrastructure-based, and would have been eased (or at least gone from "crippling" to "everyday inconvenience") had it been given more time to adjust rather than smacked by the Great Contagion (a disease that shouldn't have been able to exist) and then the Balorian Crusade (an army that shouldn't have been able to enter Creation).


A large part of the Realm's issues, on the other hand, stem from the fact that it's pressed on all sides by the dead, Lunars, Yozi cults, and other mortal concerns, and its central leader has vanished just after the window when one of her successors would have been the obvious choice (that Fire Aspect whose name eludes me), and just before the window when another would have risen to primacy (Mnemon, or, given even more time, the Roseblack).


We don't really have enough information on the Shogunate to compare the Realm to it, but both rather benefit from a distinct lack of mad god-monster-kings ruling the world unopposed.

Valiran said:
Methinks that this goes to prove that none of these things are the "right" choice, and that a new system needs to be put in place.
One of the recurring themes in Exalted is that force doesn't ultimately solve anything. The Celestials overthrew the Primordials. The Dragonblooded overthrew the Celestials. Dead Primordials and Celestials worked together to overthrow the Dragonblooded. The PCs are probably going to work together to overthrow whoever's currently winning the previous scrap.


So yes, co-operation and peace and love is the preferable choice.

Unfortunately, this would require the death or outright brainwashing of a large number of very powerful and not-necessarily-evil individuals. So, uh, good luck.
 
Revlid said:
One Solar created a race of cannibalistic humans that were incredibly sensitive to light and heat, and then kept them in the South. This was to prevent them from ever leaving her shaded pleasure-dome (it was the equivalent of Alton Towers for Solars).
They weren't cannibals in the beginning. They only went cannibalistic when they escaped into the wild when a well meaning lunar let them free in the Ursupation.

Revlid said:
Oh, Desus. :)
 
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