- Location
- The left-wing of the impossible
I think the John Brown piece has been my favorite so far. There's something macabre about learning about your place as a hallowed martyr in a future that will now never happen.
A Golden Island To The West — California ISOT from 2018 to 1850
- Thread starter Instant Sunrise
- Start date
- Original 19th Century Supernatural
SirLagginton
Shadow Cabal Caerbannog Bun-Bun
- Location
- Arrrghhh
is he actually wrong tho
aeqnai
Nerdy Homu
- Location
- Laniakea Supercluster
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I mean, if the rest of the US uptime military was there...
Hell, if Cali didn't seem to be growing reasons to need a solid military on trees in the Central Valley, either.
(mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord)
Hell, if Cali didn't seem to be growing reasons to need a solid military on trees in the Central Valley, either.
(mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord)
the atom
Anarcho-Kemalist Thought Leader
- Location
- Comfortably numb
I thought the IWW was a vestigial husk of it's former self. There aren't more modern labour organizations that would do the job instead?
Flectarn
Uphold Kali Akuno Thought
- Location
- Queen City of the Ohio
They are, albiet one experiencing a bit of a renisance. Which is why I included the parenthetical "or at least try too"
I can't imagine that the AFL-CIO unions wouldn't be trying the same thing, and have more resources to so with, I suspect though, that the IWW might have a bit of a philosophical leg up for organizing in an environment with essentially no labor laws, but it'll be a huge culture shock for everybody.
- Location
- France
- Pronouns
- She/They
Definitely. I don't think the AFL-CIO is ready for the full frontal struggle required to defend union rights in the absence of labour laws.
Sakuya's Butler
A refined Butler to a knife wielding Mistress.
- Location
- ↓, ↘, → + Punch
Better the black book, than a Little Red Book...
*shudders in horror*
- Location
- California
The thing is, without getting too deraily, is that a lot of things that helped bring communism about can be headed off at the pass--at least by those who will listen. Minimum wage, working hours, a rapidly growing economy that sees a lot of money flowing into the system--all those are things that would eliminate mch of the support for communism. Hell, powerful unions would do that--what worker is going to go to ze wall! when he already has a nine hour day and a union rep who will jump all over management.
It's not so much fighting communism as it is ensuring that all of the talking points are already seized.
Needless to say, there will be a lot of resistance--let's not forget how savagely a lot of people fought the idea that workers should be anything other than a disposable commodity, but even there, 1850 is a great time to be, because it predates the worst of the gilded age and the robber barons.
And fior me, a little bit of a snippet.
Sam Houston sat, looking at the people who had come to speak to him about fighting the abolitionists.
"We cannot," he finally said. "I believe in states rights, but the state of California, that single state outnumbers our entire nation. Not just the South, Gentlemen, the entire nation." He smiled, a death's head expression. "I have read what the future me said about the North, and now? We would not be defeated in war--because that implies that there would be a war to begin with. We would be as small children assaulting a grown soldier--a matter for laughter, not concern."
"Sir, I believe you underestimate the bravery--" Houston cut the speaker off. "Sir, if I may show you something?" He reached under his desk and brought forth one of the miraculous "tablets" that had been provided to the Senate. After several aborted attempts, he called up a "file" that he had asked for.
"What is this?"
"It is Afghanistan." Sam said. The screen showed a greenish tinge, small people moving back and forth. "The green is because of their technology for seeing even in the blackest night." They waited and suddenly the screen whited out, returning to the greenish tinge, showing bodies, a burning building and little else.
"What happened Senator?"
"A... Flying device, needing no human in it, was looking down from four miles in the sky. It launched a smaller projectile, as different from one of our rockets as our best revolvers were different from the matchlocks carried by the conquistadores." He looked at the men surrounding him. "Those... Taliban it is said, are also brave fighters--or will be. It did them no good. They did not hear their executioner. They did not see their executioner." He shook his head and looked at the men surrounding him. "Gentlemen, as a Texan patriot, I implore you. The Californian's have many laws regarding war, and a reluctance to fight that some may take as weakness. But that reluctance is borne from the horror of war in the future, not from any weakness. For the sake of our nation, of our people do not mistake reluctance for weakness. If the South should ever take the action it took in our lost future, it will motivate them to a fearful anger."
The men looked at the tablet, then back to Houston. The room was silent for some time after.
AN: It's just that downtimers aren't idiots. They may not know how its done but "Flying murderbots that can see you in the middle o fhte night and kill you before you can see or hear them," Is going to make quite an impression.
It's not so much fighting communism as it is ensuring that all of the talking points are already seized.
Needless to say, there will be a lot of resistance--let's not forget how savagely a lot of people fought the idea that workers should be anything other than a disposable commodity, but even there, 1850 is a great time to be, because it predates the worst of the gilded age and the robber barons.
And fior me, a little bit of a snippet.
Sam Houston sat, looking at the people who had come to speak to him about fighting the abolitionists.
"We cannot," he finally said. "I believe in states rights, but the state of California, that single state outnumbers our entire nation. Not just the South, Gentlemen, the entire nation." He smiled, a death's head expression. "I have read what the future me said about the North, and now? We would not be defeated in war--because that implies that there would be a war to begin with. We would be as small children assaulting a grown soldier--a matter for laughter, not concern."
"Sir, I believe you underestimate the bravery--" Houston cut the speaker off. "Sir, if I may show you something?" He reached under his desk and brought forth one of the miraculous "tablets" that had been provided to the Senate. After several aborted attempts, he called up a "file" that he had asked for.
"What is this?"
"It is Afghanistan." Sam said. The screen showed a greenish tinge, small people moving back and forth. "The green is because of their technology for seeing even in the blackest night." They waited and suddenly the screen whited out, returning to the greenish tinge, showing bodies, a burning building and little else.
"What happened Senator?"
"A... Flying device, needing no human in it, was looking down from four miles in the sky. It launched a smaller projectile, as different from one of our rockets as our best revolvers were different from the matchlocks carried by the conquistadores." He looked at the men surrounding him. "Those... Taliban it is said, are also brave fighters--or will be. It did them no good. They did not hear their executioner. They did not see their executioner." He shook his head and looked at the men surrounding him. "Gentlemen, as a Texan patriot, I implore you. The Californian's have many laws regarding war, and a reluctance to fight that some may take as weakness. But that reluctance is borne from the horror of war in the future, not from any weakness. For the sake of our nation, of our people do not mistake reluctance for weakness. If the South should ever take the action it took in our lost future, it will motivate them to a fearful anger."
The men looked at the tablet, then back to Houston. The room was silent for some time after.
AN: It's just that downtimers aren't idiots. They may not know how its done but "Flying murderbots that can see you in the middle o fhte night and kill you before you can see or hear them," Is going to make quite an impression.
LHB
Economics don't work like that!
- Location
- Glasgow, UK originally from California
Which might be enough to change the dynamic of the Civil War considerably. OTL pretty much all of the secession conventions actively barred Unionists from participating, in most cases were dubiously legal (from the sense of having any approval from the legislature or meeting any sort of democratic norms) and every seceding state had substantial numbers of Unionists, anti-Confederate resistance and with the exception of South Carolina contributed at least one regiment of volunteers to the Union Army.
With information on Californian technology becoming more widespread and visibly obvious that might push a lot of fence-sitting Southerners into the arms of the Unionists and put steel in the spine of Southern Unionists. Put all that together and you're less likely to have the Civil War as we know it and more an internal civil war across the South between secessionists and unionists with the unionists getting substantial support from outside of the South.
- Location
- Canada
How about a Great Protest that's technically trying to put off the formal abolition of slavery... by complaining that the institutions to make blacks actually free are clearly not present and will not be present for many years. "You say you want to liberate them from us. Seeing future documentation you clearly failed pretty badly to do so for yet another century and more. Do you have any plans whatsoever to avoid such problems for good? Sudden radical changes didn't work out in that history in decolonization. What makes you think it'll work in the here and now?" Technically it's a stalling tactic while the former slaveowners are frantically re-gearing to be no longer dependent on slaves, but these are reasonably valid points to make people stop and think for a bit.
The question is how many are so emotionally (and/or financially) wedded to The Particular Institution that they find negroes running free and thinking themselves even potentially equal to White Men even scarier than this. I admit that some will bite the bullet and try to finesse a way to cut the slaves loose... but I fear many would not.
The counterargument that the supposedly ex-slaveowners were violently stomping on the rights of freedmen and the North acquiesced on a Devil's Bargain to let it happen is one that will be rapidly presented.
- Location
- Canada
Natural Selection applies.
The families that see the writing on the wall may well decide to throw in the towel and go "Alright lads, you'll be paid from this day forth, at this rate, with these penalties for poor performance... and get to learn how to run finances independently. You'll still have legal protection against slave-catchers and we'll formally set you free in one year's time. You can stay on if you like after that as paid workers, or we'll have to hire the replacements we'll have lined up by then."
Because the "sudden economic crash isn't going to help those blacks you're suddenly throwing into the workforce who are thoroughly unwilling to go back to work on a plantation" argument is, in fact, sound.
"We won, and will win if needed." Is generally enough to convince people that a war was/is a good idea to put down these revolting assholes.
- Location
- Hampden Park
Plenty of northern states had anti-miscegenation laws, some until the 1960s. And I imagine that there are plenty of people in the north who don't care about slavery, regard Negroes as inferior but want to preserve the union. Except now the group trying to break up the union are anti-slavery and racially mixed, and I don't imagine that that is being favourably received by everyone.
- Location
- The Old Dominion
I remember remember when my mother who lived in the states of Washington and Illinois talked about how they would use a whistle to signal for white children to get off the playground and that black children could go on the playgrounds. Also how grandmother was threatened with firing because my mother was seen on the same playground as a black child(they apparently didn't even play together just in the same general area) while the black mother was fired from her place of work over it.
Also another incident from when when she was older and could drink mentioning how the bartender at a bar she went almost got dragged off on Halloween by the Klan who took him for being black because he apparently dressed up as Sam from Casablanca. So yeah it good to remember that until recently the north was also really, really racist they just didn't make laws about it.
Also another incident from when when she was older and could drink mentioning how the bartender at a bar she went almost got dragged off on Halloween by the Klan who took him for being black because he apparently dressed up as Sam from Casablanca. So yeah it good to remember that until recently the north was also really, really racist they just didn't make laws about it.
- Location
- Canada
The North is well aware that if California wanted to break up the union it could do so at its leisure. So they're going to sit down and be quiet, hoping that California can persuade the South to not do anything stupid by simply existing.
I'm starting to think that the only safe way to keep the former slaves safe from abuse, end ensure that they can work fairly, would be to enforce a reverse apartheid, with a few counties only for them...
This situation is also going to ensure that some plantation owners might decide that if they can't have slaves its best to make sure they can't work anywhere else. Either by killing them or causing crippling wounds.
And it won't even cause their economy to crumble, as they can then just hire unemployed northerners, that are at the moment loosing their jobs to machines.
Right now, even if Cali can sell textiles in America to lower CSA income, that still leaves them the ability to sell cotton in Europe, South America and Africa.
This situation is also going to ensure that some plantation owners might decide that if they can't have slaves its best to make sure they can't work anywhere else. Either by killing them or causing crippling wounds.
And it won't even cause their economy to crumble, as they can then just hire unemployed northerners, that are at the moment loosing their jobs to machines.
Right now, even if Cali can sell textiles in America to lower CSA income, that still leaves them the ability to sell cotton in Europe, South America and Africa.
CompassJimbo
Where’s Your North?
- Location
- The former Rubber Capital of the World
That lasts until California starts striking deals with East Coast and European merchants while waiting for construction on the Panama Canal to kick off.
- Location
- Hampden Park
Like how reverse racism doesn't exist, there's no such thing as reverse apartheid. The word literally means 'separateness'.
I was referring her to the laws and period of time in the Republic of South Africa. You are correct of course.
Cali will be always bottle-necked on the East-West railroad for transporting its goods, to sell to Europe.
Right now it might even be possible that New Granada will not give out a concession to build the canal at all, especially if European powers decide to support the revolt taking place (who support slavery/ or one of the numerous revolts that will take place soon after). If they get the CSA to support them as well, they will win blocking Cali from doing anything. And the conflicts that occur there can be exploited to stop the construction of the cross Panama railway that enabled them to build the canal in the first place.
And Europe has the power to embargo Cali.
Which would result in a complete ban on selling their goods in most of the countries on Earth.
- Location
- Canada
1. Britain has already outlawed Slavery
2. Britain was THE world superpower at this time in OTL
3. Britain would throw everyone else under a bus so fast they would think a time machine was involved to get at future technology, as soon as the rest of Europe even decides to seriously thinks about embargoing California.
4. Therefore, getting Europe to unite in embargoing California is IMPOSSIBLE.
- Location
- The Old Dominion
Though admittedly to be honest though, its quite likely some of the knowledge has already made it there as well to other European states as well as even if Californian went full 1984 or the state from the obsolete man levels of oppression they still wouldn't be able to keep such knowledge from getting out even if the underlying skills and technical are beyond their current knowledge level to reproduce.
Of course with some things that were accidentally discovered well that knowledge likely is now out among the world and will in some cases lengthen or save the lives of people who were harmed in the process of discovery.
Of course with some things that were accidentally discovered well that knowledge likely is now out among the world and will in some cases lengthen or save the lives of people who were harmed in the process of discovery.
Just because GBR outlawed slavery doesn't mean they will not support those still using it. Just like the many states that were under British rule, but governed by local dynasties, that still used slavery.
They can still get the technology they want by using spies, or paying someone in Cali to gather the information they want.
Preventing the raise of a stronger state would be priority number one for them, so getting other countries to Embargo them is a really effective way.
Who is Cali going to trade with ,not under direct or indirect European rule ,or influence?
The only states that have a chance of opposing such decrees would need massive investments that would only see returns decades later. And I believe that this is how in universe countries will see it.
- Location
- Canada
When that supercarrier shows up for a visit, Britain's going to basically have to just deal with the reality God shoved in their laps, much like Britain was mostly mum about OTL America's rise in the 1910s through 1930s.