In the case of this story it is even more obviously undemocratic. More people voted for the California party than for both other parties put together, yet because of mere geography California's voice is removed from the halls of power in the USA. The mere idea that such a thing can be defended is absurd.
I loathe the Electoral College more than the next guy, but that's not right. The problem in this election of 1852 wasn't the electoral college, but the bargain that prevented California from being properly represented in Congress. If they'd apportioned appropriately, California would have had a large majority of the electoral college by itself, and Hale would have won easily.
I loathe the Electoral College more than the next guy, but that's not right. The problem in this election of 1852 wasn't the electoral college, but the bargain that prevented California from being properly represented in Congress. If they'd apportioned appropriately, California would have had a large majority of the electoral college by itself, and Hale would have won easily.
Keep in mind also that this is the pre-Civil War era when the 3/5's compromise was in force, which gave the Southern slave states disproportionate power in the House and EC, on account of having a large number of people who can't vote but are partially counted for apportionment purposes.
The Electoral College is, in this author's opinion, indefensibly bad and the census fuckery that Cobb, Webster, Gwin and Calhoun engaged in to appease the south have created an untenable situation.
The Electoral College ensures a tyranny of the minority. It allows - indeed, encourages! - a minority of the population to able to drown out a majority, even a comfortable majority, simply by having that minority in certain states. It is unacceptably undemocratic and should be immediately abolished.
In the case of this story it is even more obviously undemocratic. More people voted for the California party than for both other parties put together, yet because of mere geography California's voice is removed from the halls of power in the USA. The mere idea that such a thing can be defended is absurd.
It's a tyranny of the minority when its numbers are totally FUBAR compared to the populations. Otherwise it's "yeah, we actually have to pander a bit to Montana and the Dakotas instead of completely ignoring them, whoop dee doo".
Define comfortable majority.
Sure, anything more than 5% advantage to one side in voters failing to yield a win for the majority is a pretty solid "Plz Uninstall" as is the case in this fic, BUT if only 51% of the population is arsed to vote, a 26-25 majority is, er, not exactly comfortable.
See Brexit for example. Technically a majority of the voters voted to leave. The participation rate however was fucking cancer.
It's a tyranny of the minority when its numbers are totally FUBAR compared to the populations. Otherwise it's "yeah, we actually have to pander a bit to Montana and the Dakotas instead of completely ignoring them, whoop dee doo".
Nobody has to pander to Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, the Dakotas, or Nebraska, because there is no need to campaign there. Their electoral votes are not up for grabs, and so both parties can completely ignore them; if every vote mattered, then you'd probably see more campaign events there, if not necessarily by the candidates on the tickets.
Nobody has to pander to Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, the Dakotas, or Nebraska, because there is no need to campaign there. Their electoral votes are not up for grabs, and so both parties can completely ignore them; if every vote mattered, then you'd probably see more campaign events there, if not necessarily by the candidates on the tickets.
Now, if the electoral college was obligated to vote in proportion (with rounding errors being the main incentive for people to campaign, of course) with their popular votes, there would indeed be some votes up for grabs in those states.
A "1 electoral college vote per 1,000,000 people, plus 2" or similar system with the above up proportional electoral college vote would leave some incentive to campaign in as many places as possible to eke out a few more electoral votes.
If we are going to argue the electoral college we could be here for pages and pages without conclusion.
What we can agree is that the electoral, as presented in this situation, is unfair and a gross misrepresentation of these USA. Which was the whole point of the compromise.
The viability or not of the electoral college cannot be argued on the basis of a planned failure.
What we can agree is that the electoral, as presented in this situation, is unfair and a gross misrepresentation of these USA. Which was the whole point of the compromise.
The viability or not of the electoral college cannot be argued on the basis of a planned failure.
Agreed. This is "fuck this shit we're out" tier disgusting.
If it was "Oh he got almost exactly California's portion of the popular vote" then it would be reasonable to argue that "one State shouldn't utterly dominate everyone else combined despite its particular population numbers", but the map as shown? NOPE.
The thing is, the choice to disenfranchise California like that was seen as making the best of a bad situation. It's just backfired tremendously now.
Full representation would have meant 133 house seats and 135 EV.
Admitting the full uptime delegation would have meant 53 house seats and 55 EV.
In either of these scenarios, California becomes an instant kingmaker in the election, because to win the White House, you either need to win California, or win every single state besides California.
With the huge House delegation, any more Bipartisan Common-Sense Solutions™ from Webster like the Compromise of 1850 are dead in the water.
Full representation would have meant 133 house seats and 135 EV.
Admitting the full uptime delegation would have meant 53 house seats and 55 EV.
In either of these scenarios, California becomes an instant kingmaker in the election, because to win the White House, you either need to win California, or win every single state besides California.
With the huge House delegation, any more Bipartisan Common-Sense Solutions™ from Webster like the Compromise of 1850 are dead in the water.
These morons need to be taught what "compromise" actually means.
Forcing California to put up with fuck-all representation for 10 years isn't "compromise". It's poking a grizzly bear in the eye.
Even the 55 EVs would not be a kingmaker. Just look at this:
If 55 EVs is a kingmaker then either New York + Pennsylvania would like a word, or I have a bridge to Terebithia (a novel which would have been over a hundred years in the future) to sell you.
I've been chewing on a scenario kind of similar to this thread's for a while: Virginia/Maryland/Delaware taken from 2013 to 1861. The difference in population wasn't as big as here, but it's still fairly stark if you look it up. The compromise engineered is simple, at first, unlike this thread: Virginia had 13 seats in 1860 and has 11 now, while Maryland went from 6 to 8. They more or less cancel out, so the Delmarvans elected in 2012 serve until March 1863. The Census introduces the hard part, which became a multi-step process. First, the whole House was apportioned according to the combined 1860/2010 population data, but using the cap of the 1861 House size. Then I took the number of seats that VA/MD/DE gained in comparison, added that number to the aforementioned House size, reapportioned with that new number, and finally transferred seats from VA/MD/DE to the other states in proportion to population, such that none of the downtime states lost seats from the 1861 apportionment. The biggest state was still Virginia, but with 46 seats, followed by Maryland with 33, and then New York at 31. The same sort of principle could have applied here, but of course it's a very different political situation.
There is a great difference between deciding forests of smokestacks are a good idea, and spending 20 years to build a single bridge due to delays in the environmental assessment while the ferries are spewing smoke/putting people in danger/etc. or people are driving the long way around and spewing out more pollution that way.
How much carbon dioxide do you think Californian drivers could have not put up into the atmosphere if California had a more brutally efficient process of building high speed rail i.e. along the obvious highway corridor instead of trying to pander to all the settlements in the central valley, oodles of environmental assessments, etc? That sort of thing is what FEEDER routes off the main trunk are for!
If 1850s were at 0 and California today is at 10 for environmental assessments, then if they want to export any of their conscientiousness it must be dialled down to no more than a 2-5 depending on the circumstances and scale. "So you want to clear-cut/flood/whatever this much land?" is obviously going to be on the higher end, while "you want to build a suspension bridge between the Nova Scotia Peninsula and Cape Breton Island, instead of the other history's land filling thing, so that shipping and fish migration isn't so hindered? But what about the lynx and bobcat problem of the other timeline???" fretting is "can you only see black and white, ye fools?" tier.
I don't think that you understand the scope and scale of the issue. A lot of the time it isn't just about rare frog X, although that kind of thing does come up.
I'll use my home city of Burlington Vermont as an example because we have the fucking poster child for exactly how important these kind of environmental impact studies are. We have a highway spur that we want to extend out beyond where it currently ends and by doing so ease up on the traffic congestion. We cannot build this because back in the 1800s and early 1900s use of the waterfront as a shipping port with casual pollution controls and doing stupid shit like just storing raw coal on the open ground resulted in literal miles of ground and water becoming contaminated to the point that it is now what's called a super-fund site, where it is a disaster zone recognized the the federal government as being too fucked for the state and city to deal with on our own.
If we try and build the highway spur that we need? The weight of it squeezes that contaminated ground like a sponge and billions of tons of super toxic contaminants spill into the lake. This is the same lake that is the primary source of drinking water for close to 200,000 people.
Now you may be thinking to yourself that the solution is obvious: don't poison the ground and the water, and everything will be fine. But first off that totally misses the fact that the exact nature of the threat to the water of the lake was found because of the environmental impact study. Everyone knew it was polluted ground, that's why the highway was planned to go through there rather than rezoning it to a residential area or something, but it wasn't until the environmental impact study results came back that we knew that putting the highway in would squeeze the polluted water out of the ground like a sponge. Furthermore, in regards to how corporations and industry act with regards to the environment, you're ascribing a mix of misplaced utilitarian set of ethics and ascribing benevolent intentions where none exist and just glossing over the massive problems that inevitably arise when there doesn't exist the governmental oversight that protect against these kind of problems. Corporations and factory owners will ALWAYS cut corners at the cost of public health unless there are strong regulations against doing so and the enforcement thereof. History shows this time and time and time again. Even in the modern era when the health and environmental side effects of heavy industry are known and recognized, corporations will act in an absolutely ruinous manner so long as it will net them greater short term profits. Just look at the fracking industry where we have tap water that is flammable because of how lax regulations are and since the government doesn't force the drilling companies to behave in a manner that's more ethical than a cartoon supervillian, they have no problems creating an ecological disaster in the name of boosting their short term profits.
And here's the real kicker: this kind of shit is infinitely cheaper and easier to prevent than it is to clean up after the fact and you're advocating ignoring the environmental impact assessments that provide that future-proofing in favor of short term benefit is exactly the kind of thinking that creates these problems in the first place.
Yes, yes, but to make regulations actually work, it MUST not equate to paralysis.
For example: The Canso Causeway was bugfuck retarded ecologically and this was obvious to anyone who knows that (le gasp) fish migrate.
However, someone could then complains that building a bridge would mean bobcats could still (in theory) invade Cape Breton Island and displace a lot of the lynx population, as per OTL, and thus sticking with the old ferry service would be better.
This could potentially result in much hand-wringing instead of a suspension bridge actually getting built in a reasonable amount of time and cost, which would improve the local economy and allow the people more breathing space to look up from thinking of how to eat tomorrow and actually consider bigger or longer-term issues.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Environmentalism is a luxury for when immediate food, water, shelter and security needs are met and you can actually look toward those needs in the longer term.
Making it economically competitive or at least not uncompetitive to be _*thing you are trying to promote*_ is key. As a subset of Cold Hard Math AKA the fabric of reality, Economics is pretty damned powerful.
And in more recent times, "ecological impact studies" seem to have become yet another pork-barrel item where visibly impractical projects can be proposed and accepted just to wring funds out of higher levels of government before they are cancelled.
Yes, yes, but to make regulations actually work, it MUST not equate to paralysis.
For example: The Canso Causeway was bugfuck retarded ecologically and this was obvious to anyone who knows that (le gasp) fish migrate.
I'm getting the feeling you are equating the fuck-up's caused by corporations -that are blocking hostile to their income ventures and use media to raise tensions with local or nation wide population to BLOCK or HALT a project for as long as possible to milk their existing setup till the end- and blame it on the government who has its hands tied with its own laws, that are called on by misinformed, or bribed people.
This happens all around the world, and after seeing it happen time and again, is just a sad reality.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Environmentalism is a luxury for when immediate food, water, shelter and security needs are met and you can actually look toward those needs in the longer term.
Huh. This is all fine and good, right until the point where you now have your belly filled, easy access to clean water, and a tall wall around your settlement. Only to discover the next year that all of the ground water is poisoned from runoff from lime powder you used for your houses, conservatives in curing leather, or poorly treated human waste.
Your cattle is now dying from disease, your crops are doing poorly, the city you built needs enormous amounts of water from outside, and the population is wrecked by diseases.
But its simple do fix!
Just build giant aqueducts or waterways!
That this will cut through a marsh or forest , and will be exposed to bird droppings? Deal with it later!
And on we go, ever dealing with an issue caused by a problem we solved, only to make a new one that we could have never had...
This is unfortunately basically how existence works if you don't want to be paralyzed by the idea of future problems you haven't considered beforehand.
This is unfortunately basically how existence works if you don't want to be paralyzed by the idea of future problems you haven't considered beforehand.
There is a distinct difference between doing something out of life threatening necessity, and doing something you know will shoot you in the foot, but still going along with it HOPING that it will not happen, or worse yet: doing it anyway knowing full well that it will happen, but you will not have to deal with the consequences and fix it.
What do you think of my claim that 55 Electoral College votes is not QUITE "kingmaker" level, as New York + either Ohio or Pennsylvania had more EC votes in 1848 in the map I posted above?
Huh. This is all fine and good, right until the point where you now have your belly filled, easy access to clean water, and a tall wall around your settlement. Only to discover the next year that all of the ground water is poisoned from runoff from lime powder you used for your houses, conservatives in curing leather, or poorly treated human waste.
Your cattle is now dying from disease, your crops are doing poorly, the city you built needs enormous amounts of water from outside, and the population is wrecked by diseases.
But its simple do fix!
Just build giant aqueducts or waterways!
That this will cut through a marsh or forest , and will be exposed to bird droppings? Deal with it later!
And on we go, ever dealing with an issue caused by a problem we solved, only to make a new one that we could have never had...
Agreed. The Aztecs had this great set-up where they'd constructed their capitol in the middle of a fresh water lake, with an extensive and technologically advanced network of bridges connecting it to the mainland. Trouble is, they didn't have the technology to predict the ecological effects of each step of the process, and the lake ended up too polluted to drink. Then the Aztecs had to go a build the most extensive and advanced sewer system on Earth just to stop the problem from getting worse, and then a sophisticated system of aquaducts to bring fresh water in to their capitol.
If they'd known more about the local environment when they started, they could have just gotten started on that sewer system in the first place and never poisoned the lake. Then they wouldn't have ever needed to go to the effort of constructing all those aqueducts (or, rather, they could invest the resources into building aqueducts somewhere else in the Empire). Which is a big deal when you flash forwards to Cortez who forced Tenochtitlan to capitulate by disrupting their water supply.
Literally, the Aztec Empire fell because they didn't do enough environmental surveys. Their excuse was that they didn't have the ability to do those when they'd founded the city. What's ours?
The Californians would literally have to be too dumb to live to loosen their already-lax system for avoiding that problem.
I am genuinely surprised that Wikipedia is still functioning so well during the ongoing low-level apocalypse gripping California. I'd have expected that they'd be struggling not to lose what articles they already had, let alone writing more. Or is this a wiki entry from the future?
I am genuinely surprised that Wikipedia is still functioning so well during the ongoing low-level apocalypse gripping California. I'd have expected that they'd be struggling not to lose what articles they already had, let alone writing more. Or is this a wiki entry from the future?
Wikipedia only has like 50 million pages. The entire text of the English-language Wikipedia is like 16GB compressed. Uncompressed with full change history is probably on the order of 100TB. Add in media and that expands a lot, granted.
As long as Wikimedia had at least one datacenter in California, which is pretty likely, the entire site should have remained available.
Literally, the Aztec Empire fell because they didn't do enough environmental surveys. Their excuse was that they didn't have the ability to do those when they'd founded the city. What's ours?
I am genuinely surprised that Wikipedia is still functioning so well during the ongoing low-level apocalypse gripping California. I'd have expected that they'd be struggling not to lose what articles they already had, let alone writing more. Or is this a wiki entry from the future?
The biggest issue with maintaining Wiki servers is with allowing them enough bandwidth for 8 billion monkeys.
Otherwise most of their stuff would fit on a large HDD.
While text alone and some graphics would probably fit on an SD card.
*welp ninja.
I am genuinely surprised that Wikipedia is still functioning so well during the ongoing low-level apocalypse gripping California. I'd have expected that they'd be struggling not to lose what articles they already had, let alone writing more. Or is this a wiki entry from the future?
Well, there's a caching server in SF, but also you'd be surprised what sort of data people hoard. There's plenty of people in CA who keep copies of the full Wikimedia XML monthly dumps, and many more who have copies of the static-HTML set.
Hell, you can go download the whole thing right now.
It wouldn't have taken more than a few hours to days to spin up a static copy. A few weeks to re-create the full backend that Wikipedia relies upon, I'd say.
Edit: Keep in mind, as well, that Wikimedia Foundation is literally headquartered in SF. This is literally what they do. Their primary DC is in Virginia, yes, but that's because nobody designs their DR protocol around the sudden dimensional displacement of a single American state.
For example: The Canso Causeway was bugfuck retarded ecologically and this was obvious to anyone who knows that (le gasp) fish migrate.
However, someone could then complains that building a bridge would mean bobcats could still (in theory) invade Cape Breton Island and displace a lot of the lynx population, as per OTL, and thus sticking with the old ferry service would be better.
This could potentially result in much hand-wringing instead of a suspension bridge actually getting built in a reasonable amount of time and cost, which would improve the local economy and allow the people more breathing space to look up from thinking of how to eat tomorrow and actually consider bigger or longer-term issues.
I get the feeling you're never going to agree with the rest of the people in the thread, and it's mostly because the apparent model of environmental assessment you run off goes:
-a project is planned/suggested
-some random individual makes a comment
-people wring hands rather than actually assess things
-nothing gets done for years on end
If you actually look at cases where things go realistically, environmental impact is very much shorter and cheaper in comparison to actual construction times and therefore pays off much sooner. The only cases where it doesn't are those where there are focus groups who don't want that project to go through and are using environmental reasons as additional reasoning (like when native groups argue against pipelines running through their land where they see disproprotionate amounts of the cost and much less of the benefits).
Claiming that anything more than the barest of environmental regulations will kill downtime industry is wildly off-base because even if downtimers don't feel like paying for environmental assessments California will feel strongly enough to heavily subsidize their use, both in paying for the assessments and offering more environmentally friendly alternatives.
At bare minimum, California at least has a very good idea of what bullshit is likely to cause issues in the future, whether it is poor construction locations, techniques that poison/ruin the region, or materials that cause health problems. They also have enough money, power, and material to be able to incline others to use the safer method, even if they just straight up bribe everyone else to do so.
Politically, giving locals the knowledge of not only where all of the natural resources are in their region, but also the techniques and material to extract said resources safely and without ruining the surrounding land is a pretty cheap way to score points and get people on your side. People remember who helped them get rich, more often than not..
In the name of Westwood!
In the name of WESTWOOD!
IN THE NAME OF WESTWOOD! WESTWOOD LIVES!
I vastly prefer GDI to Nod but Westwood's great cinematics are mostly for Nod... Probably because Joe Kucan.
See, there's a bit of a problem with this claim, which is the whole reason the Electoral College exists. Basically, it's a matter of "MINORITY REPORT".
Because the West is mostly urbanized, a lot of us don't realize that Nature is dangerous.
A city dweller is in the balance better off banning guns.
EVERYONE is better off requiring licensing for guns and gun safes to be had in households with small children.
Rural dwellers are NOT better off banning guns. Licensing and gun safe requirements? Sure. Bans? NOPE.
If you're living alone or relatively isolated in the countryside when the nearest neighbours are a phone call and 5 minutes (if they deign to come help), and the nearest cops are over 30 minutes away, and you hear suspicious noises downstairs, or wild animals show up that are rather more aggressive than feral hogs (real wild boars are incredibly aggressive and will try to gore you)... Well, it's all up to you to save yourself.
BTW according to the USDA map on this Guardian article (The Guardian is well left wing and still has to concede that the tweeter has a point), feral hogs are a problem in every county of California except one:
A Twitter user’s loaded question has been widely mocked, but there’s actually more to it than many have assumed
www.theguardian.com
While shooting most rapidly breeding animals is considered ineffective as they flee very quickly at the sound of gunfire (evolution OP plz nerf) that does imply shooting one or two at least repels the survivors for a while.
And, as previously noted, if the cops are over 30 minutes away... Well, not everyone lives in a country like the UK where a burglar breaking his ankle can sue the homeowner (Home Alone shenanigans would never be allowed in the UK). Here out in the barbarous frontiers of North America, we actually have the right to defend our homes from intruders.
The Electoral College ensures that the less densely populated states aren't just drowned out by the more urbanized states. Every single large enough group of people has tribal tendencies, and in the case of city-dwellers used to collective security (police) and general lack of wild animals... we have serious Ivory Tower syndrome.
The only notable North American settlements where I know city-dweller's attitudes on guns are close to rural attitudes are all the places north of Edmonton in latitude. After all, if you're regularly at risk of hypercarnivore attack, you know Nature is a dangerous place.
This is a joke, right? Because the amount of environmental regulations in California are the product of a society that can afford them. Environmentalism is a LUXURY, which comes after immediate needs of food, water, shelter, and protection from hostile tribes of humans.
Expect it to be adapted in Local systems as something like: "Can animals get around it reasonably safely (for animals and people)? Yes? Then they will adapt. That's evolution for ya, red in tooth and claw. Quit yer saviour complex, it's disgusting how much you look down your nose at Mother Nature. Speciation and extinction occur all the time, and if a species didn't adopt the 'expansion is the only protection against extinction' strategy than it's about to get subjected to macroevolution."
(Please note that this is for minor things like roads, bridges, etc. and not for huge amounts of idiocy like clear-cutting large forests or cutting tons of access-ways through forests)
For the EPA, the whole bit was merely as an example as to why other states can't just "copy" California and bring their own methodology and institutions up to par. Not just because of resources/money, but because the expertise needed to do the tasks literally does not exist there. It'd be the same thing with regulations about handling evidence--putting pieces of evidence in sterile containers would be very difficult at best, because the materials/industry to create such containers do not exist in those states. Etc.
As for gun regulation, the example was about why the very idea of gun control (of any kind) in other states is kind of moot--guns are nowhere near as lethal or easy to use there, so at a minimum, the need for it simply doesn't exist.
Yes, California's laws also need some revision in order to adapt to the new world it finds itself in, too. But the point of the post I made was to highlight how there are major differences in law, institutions, and the realities of the states themselves, that cannot simply be overcome with some state-level legislation. Indeed, what about critical Supreme Court rulings that California follows? Do they suddenly apply to the rest of the US? Do they no longer apply at all, even in California? And if the latter, then would California tolerate that at all? Keep in mind that these rulings are basically one level short of the Constitution itself in terms of legal power, so it's essentially a case where California and the rest of the US are following two different Constitutions...which is a huge deal.