A Golden Island To The West — California ISOT from 2018 to 1850

It is possible, but between the diplomatic/military feelers Sacramento is likely to put out, intelligence reports (the Admirals reading them will have to stop gibbering in shock under their desks long enough to pass them along sooner or later), and the various consulates acting on their own initiative to tell whoever will listen "DO NOT START $#!+ WITH THESE PEOPLE!"... there are a finite number of naval powers with the reach to even consider moving on the west coast of North America.
Never underestimate the length and depth of human idiocy. No matter how utterly, mindbogglingly moronic a course of action may be, someone, somewhere, will think it is a good idea.

I would like to live in a world where I could reliably say that people wouldn't be stupid enough to try something against a wholly superior opponent, but history tells me that I do not live in that world at all.

I mean, I live in a world where Donald Trump got elected as the leader of arguably the most powerful nation on the planet, and you're asking me to expect people to be sane, intelligent and reasonable?
 
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I mean, I live in a world where Donald Trump got elected as the leader of arguably the most powerful nation on the planet, and you're asking me to expect people to be sane, intelligent and reasonable?

You live in a world where the Democrats showed up with a candidate... who managed to lose to a Republican candidate who made campaign-scuttling statements multiple times a week. THAT is the scary part.

Now for something relevant to this story, I recently learnt (while learning about third-wave feminism for the first time via Quora) that Hillary Clinton said in 1998... and this was brought up again during her campaign... "Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat."

Which basically says that dying is less bad than surviving your relatives' deaths.

I'm making note of these words because Sati (burning of widows) still hasn't been abolished yet in India and Nepal in 1850!
Do you know what that means? It means that burning widows alive was justified by this exact premise!

I think Californians should likely want to end Foot-Binding in China and Sati in India, Nepal and peripheries ASAP.
 
Which basically says that dying is less bad than surviving your relatives' deaths.
Arguably not untrue, as dead people are either in an afterlife or nonexistent, depending on your religious beliefs. In either case, they're suffering less than the people they leave behind. Doesn't justify murder of course, but the statement is not entirely false in and of itself.

I think Californians should likely want to end Foot-Binding in China and Sati in India, Nepal and peripheries ASAP.
Good luck making major cultural changes in any kind of time scale involving the word 'soon'.
 
Never underestimate the length and depth of human idiocy. No matter how utterly, mindbogglingly moronic a course of action may be, someone, somewhere, will think it is a good idea.
I get this, and really see where someone might want to do so. I just look at the overlap between "Can get the government to send the Mighty Fleet to cow CA" and "Can get a mighty fleet to CA" and call it more of a coin flip than an inevitability.

Now for something relevant to this story, I recently learnt (while learning about third-wave feminism for the first time via Quora) that Hillary Clinton said in 1998... and this was brought up again during her campaign... "Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat."

Which basically says that dying is less bad than surviving your relatives' deaths.
"The dead are finished with this world, the survivors have to pick up the pieces." Not a school of thought to be dismissed out of hand, although one that can be honestly debated.

Not a justification for putting down survivors by any means though. I can easily see any state or private efforts to push John Company out of South Asia making a pushback against this at the same time. As for footbinding? One of those (many) things the Uptimers and Nosy Missionaries would concur on with the main arguments being tactical.
 
La Gloire and her sisters are about 10 years in the future, HMS Warrior the same. It will take another 40-ish years after that to get something that resembles a modern ship and not a ship of the line design with guns all around.

I mean, look at the Omaha-class scout cruisers and look at, I don't know, Atlanta-class cruisers. Can you see the differences? Imperial Russian cruiser Aurora would be familiar to a ship of the line captain, with a similar gun layout to his ship. Big swivel guns (aka turrets) found on ships like Clevelands or Seattles on the other hand would look out of place at first. Sure, he'd quickly see the advantages to centermounted main guns, but it is a different optic than what he's used to.

Shells as we know them are currently in their infancy. And modern shells alone changed naval warfare considerably. They revealed the need to uparmor ships, which showed the need for stronger engines and stronger guns and better shells to punch through the armor and thus the cycle began that would end with Yamato.
 
Good luck making major cultural changes in any kind of time scale involving the word 'soon'.

SOON(TM)

Better? (I dunno how to superscript in this forum software)
...Well, it's more accurate at least.

I can easily see any state or private efforts to push John Company out of South Asia making a pushback against this at the same time. As for footbinding? One of those (many) things the Uptimers and Nosy Missionaries would concur on with the main arguments being tactical.

The British were actually the first to push back against Sati, and have been doing so for a few decades by this point.

As for foot-binding, it was actually not that common, as only rich households could afford non-labouring daughters. It wasn't that hard to pry people away from it historically, especially after inflicting them with a sense of impending national annihilation.
 
Great Britain has to defend a world empire, California just has to defend its core. In any potential conflict, it will be the Brits running around the globe like a headless chicken, putting out one military crisis after another, as California can just pick and choose where to attack.

Worse of all, it's low cost for Califnornia to arm and would be insurgents.

One freighter, few hundred thousand or so AKs and ammo, make a few stops along the way, Ireland, India....

I forget, did Cali bring an aircraft carrier with it in the transition? Because if so that's the ocean locked down, though I would expect at least one of the major downtime navies to not understand what an aircraft carrier actually means for naval combat until all their stuff starts exploding for no apparent reason.

USS Midway should've come along. As would USS Yorktown (Along with USS Laffey and USS Clamagore at that point), Turns out Yorky is in SC, so not a factor here, and USS Hornet.

Museum ships or no, they are still carriers, would require some major refits, but.....
 
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USS Midway should've come along. As would USS Yorktown (Along with USS Laffey and USS Clamagore at that point), and USS Hornet.

Museum ships or no, they are still carriers, would require some major refits, but.....
Uh, the Yorktown is in South Carolina.

Anyway, it's really not worth the effort it would take to make them serviceable again. You could build a brand new ship for less, in all likelihood.
 
Refurbishing museum ships isn't going to happen ITTL:
  1. Metal fatigue is a thing.
  2. The cost of refurbishing a museum ship is higher than building a new ship.
  3. You still have to train crews to run these one-offs.
  4. No spare parts
 
well, if some of them still float and we have to, we could just post them up on the coast as a visible deterrent, even if we don't plan to actually use them for anything. :D
 
I leave for awhile, and it's the same topics again.

Never change, SV.

(I just need to make a mega post on why museum ships aren't fit to return to service or something)
 
You live in a world where the Democrats showed up with a candidate... who managed to lose to a Republican candidate who made campaign-scuttling statements multiple times a week. THAT is the scary part.

Now for something relevant to this story, I recently learnt (while learning about third-wave feminism for the first time via Quora) that Hillary Clinton said in 1998... and this was brought up again during her campaign... "Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat."

Which basically says that dying is less bad than surviving your relatives' deaths.

I'm making note of these words because Sati (burning of widows) still hasn't been abolished yet in India and Nepal in 1850!
Do you know what that means? It means that burning widows alive was justified by this exact premise!

I think Californians should likely want to end Foot-Binding in China and Sati in India, Nepal and peripheries ASAP.

Except no, that's not what in the actual fuck she was talking about. She was referring to the deplorable culture and social safety nets of the US. AKA: The dead are dead. Those who survive get fucked, ever harder and longer because of the way that Americans punish the poor for their crime of being poor and american.
 
Ya know, guys, I think we've been over the museum boats more than enough times.

1850s First-wave Women's Rights are probably more worth discussing. It's probably THE thing on Californian minds after Slavery.

Note I call them WRAs because Suffragettes and Prohibitionists were somewhat later and are generally labelled First-Wave Feminists. These first Women's Rights Activists were looking for more basic recognition and protections than that.

I think I already mentioned here that sometime in the 1860s-1880s period, a Tennessee court ruled married women did not have souls independent of their husbands. I suppose even if God struck them down for that ruling in this timeline, they'd just blame it on California cause California can do sudden explosions from a clear sky :(

Amusingly, the more I do research for my own alternate history, centered on a matrilineal dynasty that can be said to be full of empowered women, the more problems I have with third-wave and fourth-wave Feminism. Contrast the modern "Patriarchy" narrative with the possible eventual line in my story of "by hand and sword, by fire and steel, by mount and blade, we showed the world what we are capable of!" and you get why (although NONE of those things named on that list are what you would first think of, except the hand).

Hell, my research even damaged my image of First-Wave Feminism! Terrorist bombings and arsons, then giving men white feathers for cowardice while screaming you want the vote... while the conscripts of the Great War are dying vote-less in the trenches? Yikes!

...Given those later examples of violence, and the earlier examples of the Saloon Axewoman (forgot her name and can't be bothered to look her up at present) and other violent advocates for women's rights, do you reckon some Californians would want to supply early Women's Rights Activists with weapons and technology?

Because while some of their violent means set their cause back (i.e. bombings and arson), by God/ROB/ASB were they (and Second-Wave Feminists) brave!

Except no, that's not what in the actual fuck she was talking about. She was referring to the deplorable culture and social safety nets of the US. AKA: The dead are dead. Those who survive get fucked, ever harder and longer because of the way that Americans punish the poor for their crime of being poor and american.

Sigh, let me highlight some keywords to improve your comprehension: "Women have ALWAYS been THE primary victims of war..."

ALWAYS: i.e. since there have been wars, and even today
THE primary victims: All other groups are secondary.

In other words, the men dying out there are suffering less than the women surviving them.
The second I heard she had said that once I HATED her, because it was around the time I learnt Sati, as portrayed in Around the World in 80 Days, was actually a serious thing in India in the past, and it was aimed at exactly that BOGUS idea that living on without your male relatives was more horrible than getting burnt to death alive!

Either that or she was saying that men physically being killed are less important than women's feelings. Which is far beyond my tolerance limits for sexism, sorry.

If she wasn't being sexist, then she should not have used such absolutist language. Even "Since time immemorial, women have been primary victims of war." would be acceptable. A professional politician does not use such absolute terms as ALWAYS and THE unless she actually has conviction involved... or deep-seated bias.
 
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Sigh, let me highlight some keywords to improve your comprehension: "Women have ALWAYS been THE primary victims of war..."

ALWAYS: i.e. since there have been wars, and even today
THE primary victims: All other groups are secondary.

In other words, the men dying out there are suffering less than the women surviving them.
The second I heard she had said that once I HATED her, because it was around the time I learnt Sati, as portrayed in Around the World in 80 Days, was actually a serious thing in India in the past, and it was aimed at exactly that BOGUS idea that living on without your male relatives was more horrible than getting burnt to death alive!

Either that or she was saying that men physically being killed are less important than women's feelings. Which is far beyond my tolerance limits for sexism, sorry.

If she wasn't being sexist, then she should not have used such absolutist language. Even "Since time immemorial, women have been primary victims of war." would be acceptable. A professional politician does not use such absolute terms as ALWAYS and THE unless she actually has conviction involved... or deep-seated bias
Well, yes, they always have been. They suffered the majority of privatizations as a result of resources and husband's/fathers/children going to war. They were targeted for rape and treated as.part of the spoils of victory. They saw little of the benefits when their side won.
 
Well, yes, they always have been. They suffered the majority of privatizations as a result of resources and husband's/fathers/children going to war. They were targeted for rape and treated as.part of the spoils of victory. They saw little of the benefits when their side won.

Because the average peasant levy benefited when their side won. Right...

If a city is sieged down, usually the men are all put to the sword. The women at least generally survive. As long as you are alive, you can make something more of yourself... and possibly get some modicum of revenge.

Please explain to me why getting burnt to death by flaming oil poured over a city wall during a storming, or splattered on you during an exchange of catapults/trebuchets throwing pots of flaming oil at each other, or getting hacked to pieces, or being trampled to meat paste, is less unpleasant than remaining alive and able-bodied with economic difficulties.

That is the same reasoning used to justify burning widows alive in India and Nepal until the early 20th century. And it sets my MACHISMO sensors on FIRE.

Wait a second... Ah, I just figured out why I felt the need to bring Sati up at all! We've seen the Japanese and Chinese communities actions. WHERE ARE THE INDIANS, and what are they doing?

Methinks that would be interesting to know, given Indians are not exactly a small portion of the world population in 1850 OR 2018!
(EDIT: Also that since the other groups are shown organizing group ventures, I doubt Indians would go as individuals)
 
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Can we get back to California dealing with impending natural disasters like the solar flare that could easily fry all of California's advantaged technology and utterly destroy its power systems or the powerful earthquake that could lay waste to a sizable section of the state as well as exceed the earthquake safety design limits for at least one nuclear power plants in the region of the state where the earth quake is going to hit.

Not to mention there is various issues from housing and economics to a prison and jail system so over crowded had been threatened with being declared a violation of the US constitution against cruel and unusual punishment because of the overcrowding and poor conditions to worry about.
 
Can we get back to California dealing with impending natural disasters like the solar flare that could easily fry all of California's advantaged technology and utterly destroy its power systems or the powerful earthquake that could lay waste to a sizable section of the state as well as exceed the earthquake safety design limits for at least one nuclear power plants in the region of the state where the earth quake is going to hit.

Not to mention there is various issues from housing and economics to a prison and jail system so over crowded had been threatened with being declared a violation of the US constitution against cruel and unusual punishment because of the overcrowding and poor conditions to worry about.

This sounds like a good idea to me. It's way more dangerous to California.

The problem is that we need to balance two opposing factors:
a) Slavery and women's rights tend to generate headlines and public emotion. The story has done a good job of this so far.
VS
b) California is under rationing and clearly in a state of emergency. This makes it much easier for activists to focus on the comfort and convenience they're used to not quite being met... which means they'll be forced to take future major local problems into account better while their eyes are near home. This has been shown well at higher echelons. However, grassroots level depictions of concern haven't been seen yet that I can remember.
 
Wait a second... Ah, I just figured out why I felt the need to bring Sati up at all! We've seen the Japanese and Chinese communities actions. WHERE ARE THE INDIANS, and what are they doing?

Methinks that would be interesting to know, given Indians are not exactly a small portion of the world population in 1850 OR 2018!
Perhaps I mentioned it on AH.com rather than here, but I take it as given that a few are going to head over to the Mughal Court and other surviving South Asian states to give them a leg up against the East India Company.

How many of those may run into grief over language, caste, religion, gender, etc. is another matter (approval of Sati is certainly Not All That Likely). Indeed it is not out of the question that an uptime Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi sizes everybody up and walks over to the Brit Megacorp with a Long List of what they are doing wrong that they should fix in the belief that more progress will be made that way.
 
Because the average peasant levy benefited when their side won. Right...

Wait a second... Ah, I just figured out why I felt the need to bring Sati up at all! We've seen the Japanese and Chinese communities actions. WHERE ARE THE INDIANS, and what are they doing?

Methinks that would be interesting to know, given Indians are not exactly a small portion of the world population in 1850 OR 2018!
(EDIT: Also that since the other groups are shown organizing group ventures, I doubt Indians would go as individuals)

I'm Indian and one of the co-writers. That plot line is being worked out in a future update. I'm also wondering how you aren't on the discord already. But I'm not the author.
 
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Ya know, guys, I think we've been over the museum boats more than enough times.

1850s First-wave Women's Rights are probably more worth discussing.
Its probably because we care more about boats, even if you clearly wan't to run circles over women rights.

Because the average peasant levy benefited when their side won. Right...
The average peasant levy was, baring a few unique cases, a fully voluntary force, in the context you are voicing it.
They literally went to war because it would benefit them in the long term, not because they had to, as lords and nobles weren't retarded enough to take, arm and train people who would desert them at the first possible occasion.
For one thing any one of them who distinguished themselves had a chance to be hired permanently by another lord, or receive land to work in a different fief that lacked hands. It was the women that followed those levies that were responsible for looting corpses after battle. Yes their liege would then oversee that the gains brought for splitting are then handed out equally, and stay with them until they were sold (if they so chose) shielding them with his rank to prevent theft or seizing.
Hostile villages that were taken were often ransacked not by nobles, but by their levies. Everything would be taken. Tools, pots, clothes, animals...
To the people of those times losing their lives was a given. So they preferred to at least get a chance at an easier life, even if it put them directly in harms way.
Someone else that lost everything due to them?
Such is life.
 
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