True, but that assumes all else is equal. I personally suspect that the Rachni came into this war with an advantage in the number of dreadnaughts they have, either starting with more or simply managing to kill more then they lost in the initial assault, which the council would have been ill prepared for.
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Going forward, links to content from Twitter (now X) will no longer be embedded. Pre-existing links should not be affected.
Terminus Quest: A CKII Mass Effect Quest
- Location
- the Moon
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Let's not lose perspective here tho. We ate thru a years worth of rachini BB production over 10 years. Sure it happened in bursts, but that was very much a fluke. I just think we should wait until we have normalized communication with the council before we spring a gotcha on em. That kind of suckered punch is not something we should count on always happening in our favor in every battle
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Well, if we get a surge of support for "veto," maybe we can time our decision to strategic realities.
Otherwise, we can hope that the Council doesn't have any clever ideas about fighting the rachni down to the last Virmirean and coming in afterwards to pick up the pieces?
Otherwise, we can hope that the Council doesn't have any clever ideas about fighting the rachni down to the last Virmirean and coming in afterwards to pick up the pieces?
Oi, don't go taking my random example numbers for actual fact here. We have no idea of what their actual production numbers are.
- Location
- Sydney
Interesting, every word you typed all caps is completely wrong.
First the Batarians are not slavers currently, and (in canon) they managed to spend quite some time as both members and slavers.
Second, I said they could give the unrecognised territory to the Batarians post war, not that they would be idiots and work against us mid-war.
The territory is occupied Council territory. They would consider it still theirs to decide. The Council may think our expansion is occupying systems not belonging to us, the same as the Rachni.
"They lose it. We Reclaim it. End of a story." I strongly doubt their property law is finders/keepers. The law is far more likely to say stolen property belongs to the original owners (the Council).
Easy, they just don't recognise our ownership of the Relays. The Relays belonged to the Council before the Rachni took them and continue to belong to the Council. If we try to assert ownership, then we are the ones violating their sovereign space and thus be tantamount to declaring war.
They will accept our declaration of independence. They will not act stupid or spiteful. Instead they will treat us as an independent planet, nothing more and nothing less.
Our colonies (mining and other) will not be recognised as ours, when the Quarians(in canon) tried to settle worlds without authorisation their claims were refused.
Is the loss of membership benefits a worthwhile? Remember in canon many races joined/remained members even with no Council position. Virmire has (or would have if not for the Rachni) the highest tier of membership, if we rejoin we would be joining at the lowest.
If the Council refuses to accept our territory/government/etc then we have a good reason to become independent. As such they are likely to accept our claims to keep us as members, but if we have already declared independence then they will have no reason to agree to our territory claims.
To everyone voting for independence, what do you think we will gain from it?
Nothing will change now, we are effectively independent at the moment anyway.
Post war it will greatly matter, and if we make the wrong choice it might be disastrous. Vetoing now doesn't prevent a later declaration, but once we become independent then we can not undo it.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yes.
This is the part I think is really important. The Council has little reason to care about the independence of any one planet, however valuable or desirable. There are a LOT of planets, even if garden worlds are hard to come by.
What the Council almost certainly will not accept without some struggling and wrestling is the idea of an independent polity, not affiliated with the Citadel in any capacity, that can claim territorial rights over mass relays. Or that can claim an entire star cluster worth of colonies. That would set some very awkward precedents for the Council later on
They are far more likely to accept at least some of that if we're trying to negotiate for status as a "Citadel race" that just happens to be a multispecies polity rather than a single species.
We may well be able to make independence stick, but only at the price of either:
1) Watching the Council colonize Sentry Omega around our ears and snap up all our best economic opportunities, or
2) Fighting a war to resist their doing so and being seen by the galaxy at large as wrong because we are "just one planet" trying to assert control over a whole cluster, despite not speaking for anything larger than ourselves like an entire species.
EDIT:
To clarify, I mean "one likely outcome of trying to demand full independence as a non-negotiable is that we wind up an independent planet without interstellar influence and effectively stripped of colonies"
This is the part I think is really important. The Council has little reason to care about the independence of any one planet, however valuable or desirable. There are a LOT of planets, even if garden worlds are hard to come by.
What the Council almost certainly will not accept without some struggling and wrestling is the idea of an independent polity, not affiliated with the Citadel in any capacity, that can claim territorial rights over mass relays. Or that can claim an entire star cluster worth of colonies. That would set some very awkward precedents for the Council later on
They are far more likely to accept at least some of that if we're trying to negotiate for status as a "Citadel race" that just happens to be a multispecies polity rather than a single species.
We may well be able to make independence stick, but only at the price of either:
1) Watching the Council colonize Sentry Omega around our ears and snap up all our best economic opportunities, or
2) Fighting a war to resist their doing so and being seen by the galaxy at large as wrong because we are "just one planet" trying to assert control over a whole cluster, despite not speaking for anything larger than ourselves like an entire species.
EDIT:
To clarify, I mean "one likely outcome of trying to demand full independence as a non-negotiable is that we wind up an independent planet without interstellar influence and effectively stripped of colonies"
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I'll be honest; I find it funny that people are aggressively asserting property rights to stolen goods.
Especially when the original owner is a group of bigger, tougher nation states.
Who we need to ask favors from.
I'll be sure to mention it next time people get tetchy about the Lystheni.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
To be fair, "stolen" isn't necessarily the word. One can reasonably argue something like salvage rights. If we protected various things from the rachni or recovered them at risk to ourselves from the rachni, there is a legitimate argument that we have a right to a reward commensurate with the value of that which we salvaged.
I don't think the Council is right to say we've "stolen" anything.
The problem is, they don't have to.
The real risk is that they'll smoothly show up and claim that in the interests of galactic stability and freedom of navigation, they're reasserting their administration of our part of the relay network, and to avoid any unfair conflicts of interest, of course they'll adjudicate any disputes between Virmire and various other planets regarding the rest of Sentry Omega...
I don't think the Council is right to say we've "stolen" anything.
The problem is, they don't have to.
The real risk is that they'll smoothly show up and claim that in the interests of galactic stability and freedom of navigation, they're reasserting their administration of our part of the relay network, and to avoid any unfair conflicts of interest, of course they'll adjudicate any disputes between Virmire and various other planets regarding the rest of Sentry Omega...
Mandabar
Waifu of choice is Rem. Give that girl some hugs!
- Location
- Florida, USA [Yes. Florida *FacePalm*]
Oh hey, this is alive! Yay!
And not too late for a vote too even after catching up. W00t.
[x][TIMING] Pass. Virmire First.
[x][BUOYS] General Distress Call
[x][BUOYS] Update the Maps
[x][BUOYS] Reconnaissance Pulse
I'm assuming this means we will use one buoy for each of these things and get a good attempt at everything. I'm really interested in seeing what the Pulse and Updated Maps showed us. Heck even the GDC with our independent colony yelling into the void "Hey we're still here and kicking ass!... Help?".
I was looking at it and was intrigued how we had cut off a 4 Rachni cluster from everything. And since we know there biological QEC is only intra-cluster (Not solar system, but only 20-40 LY I guess, basically our local Sentry Omega mapish area I suppose) they have no way to communicate other than blockade runners on the Citadel side. Or at least we haven't had any runners on our side. That or they have taken Exodus Cluster.
@PoptartProdigy I noticed the Map isn't updated for the Kapler Verge to be colored in our fancy color yet. Does this indicate we don't "maintain" a presence yet or just not update yet? Possibly waiting to do that after this turn/Buoy to save the effort? At the very least it shouldn't be Rachni Color anymore even if technically they still infest the worlds I suppose.
Huh. Oh and technically this is my first post in this thread. Hi! I guess I never caught up enough in my last read to get to a voting point!
And not too late for a vote too even after catching up. W00t.
[x][TIMING] Pass. Virmire First.
[x][BUOYS] General Distress Call
[x][BUOYS] Update the Maps
[x][BUOYS] Reconnaissance Pulse
I'm assuming this means we will use one buoy for each of these things and get a good attempt at everything. I'm really interested in seeing what the Pulse and Updated Maps showed us. Heck even the GDC with our independent colony yelling into the void "Hey we're still here and kicking ass!... Help?".
I was looking at it and was intrigued how we had cut off a 4 Rachni cluster from everything. And since we know there biological QEC is only intra-cluster (Not solar system, but only 20-40 LY I guess, basically our local Sentry Omega mapish area I suppose) they have no way to communicate other than blockade runners on the Citadel side. Or at least we haven't had any runners on our side. That or they have taken Exodus Cluster.
@PoptartProdigy I noticed the Map isn't updated for the Kapler Verge to be colored in our fancy color yet. Does this indicate we don't "maintain" a presence yet or just not update yet? Possibly waiting to do that after this turn/Buoy to save the effort? At the very least it shouldn't be Rachni Color anymore even if technically they still infest the worlds I suppose.
Huh. Oh and technically this is my first post in this thread. Hi! I guess I never caught up enough in my last read to get to a voting point!
- Location
- Aotearoa
Hi! Very new here, came in via a CKII Geheimsnacht-mod related search result that randomly led to a finished Norsca Warhammer Quest on SV. Never knew this format was a thing. I devoured the quest, and went looking for a current one, I loved the ME games and think this is really well-written and interesting, so props to the... game master/author @PoptartProdigy
I'm all caught up and so assuming SV and game protocols let me, I'd throw my votes behind:
[X][TIMING] Veto, you belligerent idiots.
[X][BUOYS] General Distress Call
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps
[X][BUOYS] Reconnaissance Pulse
For all the reasons that @Simon_Jester and @Chrestomanci cover.
Virmire First... Multispecies Polity. Continue on with the basis of our foundation, prove the experiment works. Or doesn't. Not declaring independence now doesn't preclude declaring later.
I'm all caught up and so assuming SV and game protocols let me, I'd throw my votes behind:
[X][TIMING] Veto, you belligerent idiots.
[X][BUOYS] General Distress Call
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps
[X][BUOYS] Reconnaissance Pulse
For all the reasons that @Simon_Jester and @Chrestomanci cover.
Virmire First... Multispecies Polity. Continue on with the basis of our foundation, prove the experiment works. Or doesn't. Not declaring independence now doesn't preclude declaring later.
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Magic_Pal
On long term vacations in hell
- Location
- Poland
Poptart confirmed that they are slavers. Council did lose this territory. We were the ones that fight for it, bleed for it, die for it while they abandon it. We have a very strong claim.
Do you guys get an idea that they lose this relays and star systems? They lose them so right now they don't have any kind of ownership over them. Rachni do. And we do. Like I said we fight, bleed and die for all of it. We have stronger claim. If they would dismiss it, it would damage their reputation.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Poptart confirmed that batarians enslave other batarians, but do not normally enslave outsiders. They are tolerated in this era, slavery and all. That is a fact. You using all caps to identify the batarians as SLAVERS does not change the reality. Furthermore, as noted, the entire argument "the Council can't give 'our' planets to batarians" is irrelevant because the Council can simply wait and let the krogans try to take our worlds by force, giving us a huge problem and no Council support in dealing with it.
The Council did physically lose control of the territory around us, but that simply does not mean what you think it means.
This is an extremely crude attitude towards the right to control territory. I suspect similar claims were advanced by a lot of krogan warlords: "We reclaimed half the galaxy from the rachni, therefore we rightfully own half the galaxy."
This did not, to put it mildly, end well for the krogans.
When an enemy navy overruns a star cluster, it does not mean that in the minds of everyone else including the defenders, the star cluster is now the rightful property of whoever last conquered it. Spain did not become British property after Napoleon's armies were driven out. France did not become joint US-British property when the Allies drove out the Nazis. Kuwait did not become US property after the first Gulf War.
Furthermore, the Council does not see itself as just one more country with territory. It sees itself as a galactic body whose job is to apportion planetsand balance the interests of everyone who wants them. Just because stand on it and growl like an angry dog and bark "MINE! I FOUGHT FOR IT! MINE!" does not mean they will just ignore everyone else's interests. No one with power thinks like that. A fierce, warlike Council would just ignore our barking and fight us if we resisted. A peaceful, diplomatic Council (more likely) would just ignore our barking and point out there are things other than brute force that decide who owns things.
- Location
- Austria
"Right of conquest" is only valid for humans who are now at ~0 BC.
Advanced races (so, not humans an not Ork expies aka Krogans) actually care about more things than "I took so it is now mine" while waving their dreadnoughts around.
And the most amusing part? We don't even have dreadnoughts to wave around. We aint gonna win fleet-measuring contest, so why are y'all insistent on provoking it?
If they try the kind of shit you're saying here then they're completely stupid. We control the Relay by virtue of the fact that we have a goddamned fleet and fortifications there - they ceded the Relays in question to the Rachni, we took them from the Rachni, and we're holding them. Them trying to make a claim would be laughable even by the standards of their own constituents, especially in the face of them leaving us to die. They can't afford to start a war with us to try to take control of the Relays right now, so they're far better off just recognizing our territorial claims and working with us rather than doing everything in their power to piss us off. It's not like the Asari among the Council won't think to play the long game anyways.
As far as the quarians go, bad example - they were being punished for creating the geth.
In regards to our status with the council Council, I'd say an administrated colony was low, not high. We were Council administrated - we had no embassy, no representation of any kind, and there's no reason to think we'd automatically get one either. If we rejoin it would end up under better terms, like us actually having an embassy, due to being recognized as a fully sovereign nation with our territorial claims intact rather than just some independent colony that only controls a single planet.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
What makes you think most of their constituents have this kind of powerful respect for the right of conquest?
If a hurricane forces most of the population of a city to evacuate, the city doesn't magically become the property of the few people stubborn enough or trapped enough to stay behind.
Alternatively, the asari can simply go "hum te hum te hum" and neither acknowledge nor deny our rightful ownership of the relays during the war. What are we going to do about it, stop fighting the rachni ourselves? The entire (supposed) basis of our claim in the eyes of the galactic public is that we're badass survivor rachni fighters.
If we stop fighting purely because the asari delay acknowledging our sovereignty over the mass relays we've taken to date, we're going to look incredibly obnoxious and reckless to many people, including some of our own. Like Achilles sulking in his tent, to use one of the few pieces of Earth popular media that actually existed during the rachni wars...
So basically, the Council gets all the benefits of our participation in the war, for the duration of the war, without promising us anything, but without denying us anything. They're playing the long game, because of course a body that's 50% asari by weight is playing the long game.
The war is over. Then they start using salami tactics against us. Do we use our claimed "control" over three or four relays to block civilian shipping? If so, the Council has cause to negotiate access rights with us and crowbar open access to our space. If not, the Council has cause to fight a war after "repeated provocations" wherein we refuse to let civilian ships use 'our' relays.
If we let civilian ships through, do we let warships? Do we let Citadel authorities found new colonies and bases in 'our' clusters? At what point are we willing to confront the much more powerful Council over the issue of use of the relays we claim to hold by right of conquest?
And in the background is the threat of the poorly controlled krogan. If we like right of conquest so much, maybe we can go butt heads with the krogan warlords eager to seize planets of their own...
They were both being punished and being denied the ability to simply take worlds they want. The Council does not let people do that.
The two cornerstones of their influence are control of the mass relay network, and the right to apportion planetary resources among various galactic powers. They will not give those up lightly.
I think we can get better terms IF we have a good negotiating position.
I don't think opening with a claim of independence and claiming sovereignty by right of conquest over multiple mass relays and star clusters is a good negotiating position.
This is an age of exploration, because most of the galaxy is uninhabited. The guy who finds something, claims it, and puts military assets there to defend it pretty much gets recognition as owning it unless someone else is willing to press the issue and use force to take it. Certain groups might pretend to be more 'civilized' than that, but that's how things actually work in reality.
As far as the hurricane example, governments don't tend to leave the area for decades at a time, allowing the people there to build up their own military. Not really an apt comparison.
The asari delaying official recognition is to our benefit and they'd know it. The longer they wait, the longer we've had to build up our fleets, fortify our systems and relays, and generally establish control. The notion of forcibly taking anything from us will become less and less palatable, and becomes more and more the status quo. Not to mention that the Council itself doesn't really declare war, but rather its constituent races do, and neither the Asari or the Salarians (who are the ones with actual votes in the Council) are close enough to really feel much need to claim our territory anyways.
So if they try to delay recognition, we just continue to press our claims while being cooperative with respect to prosecuting the Rachni war. We can even dangle the prospect of us maybe being willing to rejoin the Council in the future, if they give us the recognition that we want as a sovereign nation.
This is all part and parcel of owning territory and being a sovereign nation - negotiations about trade routes, travel through controlled 'waters', and all sorts of diplomacy happens. I don't see the problem.
As far as the krogans go, you're presuming we won't have rejoined the Council by that point as a sovereign nation. The Rachni Wars in canon lasted three centuries, and the Krogans' expansion didn't turn into the Krogan Rebellions (when they actually started taking other peoples' territories) for four centuries after that.
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In regards to "Virmire First", I wouldn't read too much into that. It's flavor text, just as the "belligerent idiots" part of the veto vote is. The characters' actual attitudes will be much more complex, especially given they are actually competent.
Magic_Pal
On long term vacations in hell
- Location
- Poland
Why do you all think that the council is like some totalitarian body out of fucking fanfiction? They just like we have to consider public support and consequences of their moves. They gain nothing from not accepting our claim, but lose an ally. We are not any third party that has no real meaning. We are a power that must be respected. Yes, they are more powerful than us, but that doesn't mean they will want to destroy us.
And yes we fight for our territory so it is ours. This is war ladies and gentelmens and this is how world works in war time.
Why would we block civilian shipping? Why? If they want to trade why would we block them? Why are you assuming that we would make a stupid decision? Please explain.
No, we would not let warships through. This is our territory. We will defend it. We don't need their help in that regard. No, we will not allow them to make new colonies here. This is our space. They have the rest of the galaxy for that. We will tell them from the beginning this are our relays now. We will have patrols and protections there.
And yes we fight for our territory so it is ours. This is war ladies and gentelmens and this is how world works in war time.
Why would we block civilian shipping? Why? If they want to trade why would we block them? Why are you assuming that we would make a stupid decision? Please explain.
No, we would not let warships through. This is our territory. We will defend it. We don't need their help in that regard. No, we will not allow them to make new colonies here. This is our space. They have the rest of the galaxy for that. We will tell them from the beginning this are our relays now. We will have patrols and protections there.
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- Location
- New York
[X][TIMING] Veto, you belligerent idiots.
[X][BUOYS] General Distress Call
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps
[X][BUOYS] Reconnaissance Pulse
We can easily declare independence after the war or close to the end of the war. There's no reason to rock the boat and prevent cooperation with the Council during the war.
[X][BUOYS] General Distress Call
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps
[X][BUOYS] Reconnaissance Pulse
We can easily declare independence after the war or close to the end of the war. There's no reason to rock the boat and prevent cooperation with the Council during the war.