[X][TIMING] Pass. Virmire First.
[X][BUOYS] General Distress Call
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps
[X][BUOYS] Reconnaissance Pulse
Given that we intend to be independent anyway, I honestly can't think of what the mapping result could show that would make us want to have vetoed. If the Citadel is doing well the Rachni are harder pressed and our side of the war is easier. If they're doing poorly, our being independent won't stop them from working with us, either due to desperation or because they couldn't afford to help anyway.
I'd have liked to wait a year or two on this, but it just isn't worth the popularity hit.
Your quote explicitly notes that the Citadel military would not have been happy about this, assuming they had any prewarning.
Did someone get indoctrinated? Were the then-councillors simply incompetent?
Did they lose a major fleet to disaster and have to retreat precipitately?
Again, we don't know what the fuck happened on their end. We need more information.
Which is what everyone who has voted for Veto has been insisting on.
Pretty sure this is wrong.
It explicitly ignore the existence of Ilium, an asari-dominated world that is explicitly not a part of the Asari Republics despite being part of the Citadel.
The Citadel is not the Imperium of Man; it's remit vis a vis colonies is distinctly limited. It can expel planets and nations(see the quarians), and prevent colonies being established in claimed territory. But it doesn't have the authority to TELL people not to secede.
Turian separatists on Taetrus do not make demands of the Citadel Council in canon to secede, they make demands of the Turian Hierarchy.
The Terminus you're talking about is not yet exist. Right now it's just a bunch of colonies that were abandoned by the Citadel (just like us) and lucky enough to not draw the Rachni attention (unlike us).
It's possible that the Citadel tried to reintegrate them back after the war, and only Krogan Rebellions stop them.
1) The Terminus is not, and was never composed of ex-Citadel colonies.
Not in canon. The Citadel races never had expanded that far; the krogan OTOH colonized at least one world there, Garvug, which they still hold.
Some canon Citadel corporations had, and still have, business interests there, from Binary Helix to Sonax Industries.
No Citadel worlds.
2) The Terminus systems are at war with the Rachni in this Quest.
Loose alliance, and they're not the Rachni's main focus, but they are at war regardless.
I don't believe in it. Even if they didn't care yesterday, tomorrow they will find out that their Prime Minister refused to formally declare something obvious for the majority of our population. But if you're correct, by the same token minority shouldn't care about our Declaration. From their standpoint of extremely long-lived species we're already independent in all except the name and that's mean nothing. The war will end soon enough, the Citadel will return its status of galactic superpower, and Virmire will be reintegrated.
1)I do not agree with your assessment of obvious. Furthermore, we are incredibly popular.
In Quest terms, that means Trust. Trust that we know what the hell we're doing.
2) One in four people is not a token minority.
The US population of African-Americans is ~13%, or one in eight.
3) The Rachni War canonically lasted about seventy years before the krogan were discovered, and another twenty years or so before they blew up the Rachni home world. This war is not ending soon without extreme butterflies coming into play.
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps: You can't count on a brief call to give you all the information you'll need to direct your breakout efforts. Ping the Rachni comms network for a detailed update on what exactly their held space is presently. Updates galaxy map to accurately reflect the present state of Rachni-held relays.
Does ME lore give an explicit date for when the Krogan reached Suen? Or, are you referring to the Rachni extinction ~200 years after the Krogan were uplifted?
Does ME lore give an explicit date for when the Krogan reached Suen? Or, are you referring to the Rachni extinction ~200 years after the Krogan were uplifted?
Can't find the original quote; dunno if it was edited, or if I'm misremembering.
This is the closest thing I can find: Timeline
The emergence of the krogan in 80 CE turned the war against the rachni. Able to survive the harshest environments, the krogan were able to strike at the queens in their lairs and reclaim conquered Council worlds. When krogan fleets pushed them back to Suen, the rachni refused to surrender. The krogan response was swift and brutal: they bombarded Suen's cities and detonated powerful bombs in the rachni's underground nests, creating massive sinkholes on the planet's surface. The rachni were declared extinct in 300 CE, although in caution the Citadel Council left a listening post in the system to monitor for any survivors.
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps: You can't count on a brief call to give you all the information you'll need to direct your breakout efforts. Ping the Rachni comms network for a detailed update on what exactly their held space is presently. Updates galaxy map to accurately reflect the present state of Rachni-held relays.
If we want more information, then we can do a referendum afterwards, but I swear that vetoing the first major thing to cross our desk, something near-every Virminian has wanted since being abandoned, is a very bad idea.
It will be too late to get more information after we've already committed to independence, or rather it will be too late for that information to matter. At a bare minimum we should wait until we can look at a reasonably accurate map.
And I refuse to let "but this is the first major legislation we see!" override "but this is badly timed legislation!" Not when Mira has a ninety-something percent approval rating and thus, in effect, all the political capital.
I think we'd know if that were the case. "Radical reform" very obviously refers to the well-known anti-corruption, anti-corporate and legislative reforms Mira has enacted.
Given that we intend to be independent anyway, I honestly can't think of what the mapping result could show that would make us want to have vetoed. If the Citadel is doing well the Rachni are harder pressed and our side of the war is easier. If they're doing poorly, our being independent won't stop them from working with us, either due to desperation or because they couldn't afford to help anyway.
I'd have liked to wait a year or two on this, but it just isn't worth the popularity hit.
Exactly what is ninety-something percent approval good for, if not to give us the "luxury" of being able to safely make controversial decisions that we believe to be in the public interest?
We sure won't need it to win an election; you can do that at sixty percent or less.
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps: You can't count on a brief call to give you all the information you'll need to direct your breakout efforts. Ping the Rachni comms network for a detailed update on what exactly their held space is presently. Updates galaxy map to accurately reflect the present state of Rachni-held relays.
[X][TIMING] Pass. Virmire First.
[X][BUOYS] General Distress Call
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps
[X][BUOYS] Reconnaissance Pulse
This is, IMO, exactly the time for us to declare independence. Will it rustle the Citadel's jimmies? Sure. But they can't do anything about it because they're currently fighting a galaxy scale war against a race of space cockroaches. Even if they could reach us soon-ish, they aren't going to try fighting us over it because they can't afford the resources. They're better off accepting it and making nice, because we're a militarily capable power that has managed to seize control of a Relay Hub from the Rachni, and when the war is over our independence will be the status quo and they'll be less inclined to do anything about it.
[X][TIMING] Veto, you belligerent idiots.
[X][BUOYS] General Distress Call
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps
[X][BUOYS] Reconnaissance Pulse
I want to vote yes for independence but I would at least like to wait until AFTER the buoys are used. I mean, assuming we take a big popularity hit (which I doubt), what is the worst that could happen?
Exactly what is ninety-something percent approval good for, if not to give us the "luxury" of being able to safely make controversial decisions that we believe to be in the public interest?
We sure won't need it to win an election; you can do that at sixty percent or less.
But as I said, I don't think it's an important issue. The popularity may be there to be used - though I think you're dramatically underestimating the importance of having a large buffer for events outside our control, like bad rolls - but I don't think the information will change our views on independence, so it's spending popularity to no real effect.
Pretty sure this is wrong.
It explicitly ignore the existence of Ilium, an asari-dominated world that is explicitly not a part of the Asari Republics despite being part of the Citadel.
The Citadel is not the Imperium of Man; it's remit vis a vis colonies is distinctly limited. It can expel planets and nations(see the quarians), and prevent colonies being established in claimed territory. But it doesn't have the authority to TELL people not to secede.
Turian separatists on Taetrus do not make demands of the Citadel Council in canon to secede, they make demands of the Turian Hierarchy.
Don't see a trouble here.
Both Illium and Noveria from the very beginning were corporate worlds created specifically to bypass the Citadel law. Most probably their founders firstly negotiated with the Council about special status for their worlds and only after that began colonization.
Taetrus is populated by Turians and governed by the Turian Hierarchy, so they tried to secede from the Hierarchy.
Virmire is populated by all Citadel species and probaly governed directly by the Citadel. So we're trying to secede from the Citadel.
1) The Terminus is not, and was never composed of ex-Citadel colonies.
Not in canon. The Citadel races never had expanded that far; the krogan OTOH colonized at least one world there, Garvug, which they still hold.
Some canon Citadel corporations had, and still have, business interests there, from Binary Helix to Sonax Industries.
No Citadel worlds.
2) The Terminus systems are at war with the Rachni in this Quest.
Loose alliance, and they're not the Rachni's main focus, but they are at war regardless.
2) One in four people is not a token minority.
The US population of African-Americans is ~13%, or one in eight.
3) The Rachni War canonically lasted about seventy years before the krogan were discovered, and another twenty years or so before they blew up the Rachni home world. This war is not ending soon without extreme butterflies coming into play.
2) I didn't call them 'token minority', I said 'by the same token minority shouldn't care...'
Which means "if you think that majority doesn't care about independence, minority shouldn't care about it too".
Did I use turn of phrase 'by the same token' incorrectly?
3) Random asari doesn't know about that. And even if she somehow finds out... a century is not really so long time for her.
[X][TIMING] Veto, you belligerent idiots.
[X][BUOYS] General Distress Call
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps
[X][BUOYS] Reconnaissance Pulse
We can make good on the popularity hit by promising a referendum about it later. We're in the middle of a galactic spanning war, tell them to cool their heels until later.
You are trying to micromanage below the current level of abstraction.
3/4 of the elected body want this to happen. We can thus infer that ~3/4 of our population want it to happen. Referendum done.
We can first establish international chops by fucking up Rachni
Already did that. We have destroyed several capital ships and taken two full clusters off them. Frankly holding what we have is about the best we can hope for as a Tire 2 nation slugging it out with a Tire 1 super power.
We have da facto Independence. This vote just codifies it into law.
You are trying to micromanage below the current level of abstraction.
3/4 of the elected body want this to happen. We can thus infer that ~3/4 of our population want it to happen. Referendum done.
about the Assembly options, can we have a "move to referendum" option, because i feel like declaring independence would be something that needs a referendum, and we might have more things in the future we might want the people to decide.
though if not then fuck the citadel all the way.
I think there's a difference between a mentality of "we will need to renegotiate our status with the Council to be more like the Vol Protectorate, Batarian Hegemony, etc.", and "**** YOU COUNCIL WE BE INDEPENDENT, LATERS".
"Virmire First" for Independce sounds an awful lot like the latter.
Plus, better to focus on "hey we're still alive and maybe need help but we're tying some of them up" when we finally contact the Council (which we need to do, we cannot win this war alone), than also add in "and we are 100% independent".
We're still part of the galactic community, and I'm not in favor of doing major damage to that with such an aggressive measure right off.
A bill that basically says "we will approach the Council as an appropriate star nation rather than a simple colony" would be better than just "INDEPENDENCE".
People have been pretty clear about their desires. As for myself, I just don't see how the benefits of being independent are worthwhile in this point of time.
Remain in the council
-Pros
--Easier to cooperate against the Rachni
--Better trade deals
--Easier access to council tech
--Easier immigration from other council planets into our polity (noting that one of our major colonization limiters is insufficient population)
--Get more territory at the end of the war
--Are better able to influence other council members
--Can get our people into the SPECTRE program
--If the Batarians attack us, we can fight against them without the rest of the council uniting behind them
-Cons
--We have to abide by council laws (are there even any council laws at all at this point in time?)
--Might be requested to devote some of our ships to protect other council members
--Easier emigration from our territory into the council
--We have to allow SPECTRES to operate in our territory
--We will be more likely to be requested to destroy the Lysenthi
Leave the council
-Pros
--We get to say that we are independent
--Easier to ally the Lysenthi
-Cons
--We are a higher priority target for SPECTRES, and their mission parameters will be expanded
--We will be a higher priority target for the STG
--The Batarians will be given a free hand to deal with us as they wish
But why do you all act like our independence would mean that council will just not help us? We are facing GALACTIC THREAT! There is no place for politics other than survival. After war we would need do sit down and look on all that political bullshit but right now we need to do what we must. Council will not ignore us becouse we are as much of a help for them like they are for us.
I'll rephrase.
What do we gain from declaring independence?
Seems like a waste of time. Just keep getting things done; after we are more trouble than it's worth to bring back in line we can talk about declarations.
Like, the only pro of declaration at this point is pointless pseudopatriotic dickwaving. It will change once losing it becomes even slight possibility aka "Rachni are solidly losing", but not before that.
But why do you all act like our independence would mean that council will just not help us? We are facing GALACTIC THREAT! There is no place for politics other than survival. After war we would need do sit down and look on all that political bullshit but right now we need to do what we must. Council will not ignore us becouse we are as much of a help for them like they are for us.
It is very simple. We'd be the ones initiating the political bullshit, and the council will want to shut us down before any other members get any "bright" ideas. The council doesn't want colonies to be declaring independence in the middle of a war for their survival. If they defend us after we become independent, they will be encouraging their members to withhold resources from the war. If instead they allow us to be destroyed after we become independent, they will have an excellent demonstration as to why all of their members need to remain united.
You seem to miss the part where being a Citadel planet means we go from being a head of state to a glorified mayor. All those colonies we have? Not ours any more. Those also become Citadel planets, ruled from the Citadel or one of the faction homeworlds just like us. Our military grade warships? Not ours any more. They get folded into the Citadel armed forces.
What you think 'remain in the council' is, is actually being an Independent Faction that has signed on as part of the Citadel alliance. We can do that later if we so choose.
