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Magna Graecia: Victory's Children (A City State Quest)

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Look at the demographics - the Peuketti are deeply unlikely to "recover" to the point where they can threaten Eretria alone, because we outnumber them and are ourselves growing at a pretty phenomenal rate (which will only be boosted if we can reopen the Sicilian Metic pipeline).
Shebe Zuu said:
I suppose I should clarify that I envision greek settlement taking place there as opposed to just granting them citizenship. I'd rather not give away control of someplace that I'd like to see in our hands at some point in the future.
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It's still "in our control" - Harpos remains our vassal. And we're currently looking to Hellenise his kids.
 
Ironanvil1 said:
Look at the demographics - the Peuketti are deeply unlikely to "recover" to the point where they can threaten Eretria alone, because we outnumber them and are ourselves growing at a pretty phenomenal rate (which will only be boosted if we can reopen the Sicilian Metic pipeline).
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Our growth is pretty spectacular but it will inevitably slow at some point. And we have enough threats to deal with that I doubt the Peuketti would have to go it alone, should they choose to rebel.

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Ironanvil1 said:
It's still "in our control" - Harpos remains our vassal. And we're currently looking to Hellenise his kids.
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It's a lot harder to convince a Peuketti king to let you settle his land than it is to convince a small Peuketti city to do so.
 
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Come to think of it, opening Sacred Treasury for defensive purpose when war may or may not be close is quite reasonable and is hardly an exception from the rules.

I just do not know how to phrase the vote and am waiting for more accepted write-in formalization.
 
[X] USER MOTION (Ironanvil1): Harpos shall be King of the Peuketti, but at the hand of Eretria. He shall be elevated in a ceremony at Eretria a year hence, allowing him time to address the fears of the people of Rhyps, where he will reswear his oaths of allegiance in his new role, even as Rhyps swears to him. It will also allow him to reassure himself as to the welfare of his children guesting in the city.

[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai, and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.

[X] USER MOTION (Cavalier): We shall open the Sacred Treasury this one time, for the construction of the stone wall is vital to the defence of the city. The funds taken out of the treasury will be repaid into it at a rate no less than 50 talents a year, on top of the 10% annual tithe. With the additional funds available we will extend the wall to cover a larger area so that we may account for the city's growth, as well as the construction of a sea wall, to ward off naval raids and assault. [-320 talents, wall will cover a larger area of the city, wall will protect the shore and harbour, four turns to build, will draw from the Sacred Treasury].
 
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[X] USER MOTION Harpos shall be King of the Peuketti, but at the hand of Eretria. He shall be elevated in a ceremony at Eretria a year hence, allowing him time to address the fears of the people of Rhyps, where he will reswear his oaths of allegiance in his new role, even as Rhyps swears to him. It will also allow him to reassure himself as to the welfare of his children guesting in the city.

[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai, and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.

[X] We shall open the Sacred Treasury this one time, for the construction of the stone wall is vital to the defence of the city. The funds taken out of the treasury will be repaid into it at a rate no less than 50 talents a year, on top of the 10% annual tithe. With the additional funds available we will extend the wall to cover a larger area so that we may account for the city's growth, as well as the construction of a sea wall, to ward off naval raids and assault. [-320 talents, wall will cover a larger area of the city, wall will protect the shore and harbour, four turns to build, will draw from the Sacred Treasury]
 
[X] We shall open the Sacred Treasury this one time, for the construction of the stone wall is vital to the defence of the city. The funds taken out of the treasury will be repaid into it at a rate no less than 50 talents a year, on top of the 10% annual tithe. With the additional funds available we will extend the wall to cover a larger area so that we may account for the city's growth, as well as the construction of a sea wall, to ward off naval raids and assault. [-320 talents, wall will cover a larger area of the city, wall will protect the shore and harbour, four turns to build, will draw from the Sacred Treasury]

Maybe an optimal solution would have been a reinforced wall and sea wall with any city expansion protected by a simple palisade (just to give time to take refuge in the citadel) before expanding the wall in the next generation, but, given how we have some resources at hand now we may as well give more space to the city (if it is not filled immediately by housing it can also be used for things like vegetable gardens). In any case the priority must be on the sea wall, for our most existential threats come from the sea.

[X] USER MOTION Harpos shall be King of the Peuketti, but at the hand of Eretria. He shall be elevated in a ceremony at Eretria a year hence, allowing him time to address the fears of the people of Rhyps, where he will reswear his oaths of allegiance in his new role. It will also allow him to reassure himself as to the welfareof his children guesting in the city.

Sorry Rhyps, I hope you are not too attached to your oligarchs...
I am "really" sorry to sell them out, but Harpos will not really sack them like Canosa and they will learn to accept the situation. Having another village doesn't really make Harpos more dangerous in case he chooses to betray us and if he allied with Arpus he would not receive much more than that, in case of our defeat. The Peuketti don't have the population to resettle their former coastal areas even in a worst case for us, so giving him Rhyps already takes away the major thing Arpus could promise him.

As for where to send Kallias, I am uncertain: the possibility of an actual alliance with Metapontion and a Proxenos there is enticing and would allow us to understand more about Sicilian matters and steer some more Metics here (those expanded walls will come handy to house 'em), but they are only really useful against Taras (no apparent imminent threat from them), the Messapii (a sort of agreement is in place with their king after we gave him the people from Azetion) or the Lucani (dangerous, but not existentially so). I would have chosen this option, but the actions of the Liburnians and Korintheans do worry me a lot.

Mainland Greece: this looks like the prodromes to the (second) Peloponnese war around 433 bC, when Athens sided with Kerkyra against Corinth. This looks like the safest option in the short term, protecting us from a potentially terrible threat. On the other hand Atgens doesn't really do allies and I don't want to be dragged into some of their crazy wars or be forced into the Delian League at spearpoint in another ten years.
I hope Kerkyra can protect us enough against the Korinthean navy, balancing them out, but what if instead they sell us out? They don't look like very reliable allies.

LIBURNIANS: This threat is becoming extrrmely dangerous again. We have a people that is highly bellicose and violent and can be reasonably expected to want bloody revenge. We need to address this or the Epulian League will be destroyed. The problem is that the mission delined for Kallias doesn't seem likely to give us useful allies and rather runs a real risk of him dying horribly.

If we send Kallias to Athens, can he stop over in Kerkyra and Corinth and try to forge a temporary league against the pirates? All trade cities should be interested and thus would also ease tensions among us. It seems unlikely that they will cooperate, but maybe it is worth a shot.
 
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[X] We need to build the wall right to begin with. Let us use the Sacred Treasury to build a wall that befits the glory of Eretria, grand enough to impress the whole world! Extend the wall over a large area, fortify the shore and harbour, and thicken it to store grains. [-370 talents, five turns to build].
 
Posting this link up as a reminder.
Original - Alt. History - Magna Graecia: A City State Quest | Page 314

People have been making pilgrimages to our Akropolis to bear witness to the divine marriage, a refreshingly new concept that came out of Eretria. Maybe it's tapered off, but there will be the site of a lot of chaos soon, so I expect that it might produce more residents than without.

There's also the fact that Athenians already did a bang up job using us and Magna grecia as a ploy to get their coalition armies to face the Persians.
(They threatened the other greeks that they'd emigrate and join us in Italy, if the others didn't stop bickering.)

So, I think we'll get people from the simmering mainland too, if only because the Athenians made us Magna Grecia sound...nice with us being there .
Would be nice to know where most are coming from so, I it's another bright spot for having Kalias check with Metapontion.
 
If the wall is not finished before the war, we're all fucked. Do we have 5 years of peace without sieges? If so, sure, maximum walls is a way to go, otherwise, dunno.
 
Eh, fair enough.

[X] USER MOTION Harpos shall be King of the Peuketti, but at the hand of Eretria. He shall be elevated in a ceremony at Eretria a year hence, allowing him time to address the fears of the people of Rhyps, where he will reswear his oaths of allegiance in his new role, even as Rhyps swears to him. It will also allow him to reassure himself as to the welfare of his children guesting in the city.

[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai, and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.

[X] We shall open the Sacred Treasury this one time, for the construction of the stone wall is vital to the defence of the city. The funds taken out of the treasury will be repaid into it at a rate no less than 50 talents a year, on top of the 10% annual tithe. With the additional funds available we will extend the wall to cover a larger area so that we may account for the city's growth, as well as the construction of a sea wall, to ward off naval raids and assault. [-320 talents, wall will cover a larger area of the city, wall will protect the shore and harbour, four turns to build, will draw from the Sacred Treasury].
 
[X] We cannot simply lay low all our allies when we see fit for the sake of empowering one man. He is capable, it is true, but the people of Rhyps have done nothing to deserve being turned over, and their fear keeps them well in line. There is little fear of them turning away from us, so why give Harpos a further boon so quickly?
[X] Dispatch Kallias north to Arimnus and then on foot throughout Padanian Etruria on the road to Atria to build allies against a potential Liburnian incursion, as they are growing bolder every year and could potentially strike at Eretria.
[X] We need to have the wall fortify the shore and harbour, so that we are protected against naval raids and assault. [-270 talents, wall will protect the shore and harbour, three turns to build].
 
[X] USER MOTION Harpos shall be King of the Peuketti, but at the hand of Eretria. He shall be elevated in a ceremony at Eretria a year hence, allowing him time to address the fears of the people of Rhyps, where he will reswear his oaths of allegiance in his new role, even as Rhyps swears to him. It will also allow him to reassure himself as to the welfare of his children guesting in the city.

[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai, and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.

[X] We shall open the Sacred Treasury this one time, for the construction of the stone wall is vital to the defence of the city. The funds taken out of the treasury will be repaid into it at a rate no less than 50 talents a year, on top of the 10% annual tithe. With the additional funds available we will extend the wall to cover a larger area so that we may account for the city's growth, as well as the construction of a sea wall, to ward off naval raids and assault. [-320 talents, wall will cover a larger area of the city, wall will protect the shore and harbour, four turns to build, will draw from the Sacred Treasury].
 
[X] We cannot simply lay low all our allies when we see fit for the sake of empowering one man. He is capable, it is true, but the people of Rhyps have done nothing to deserve being turned over, and their fear keeps them well in line. There is little fear of them turning away from us, so why give Harpos a further boon so quickly?

[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai, and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.

[X] We shall open the Sacred Treasury this one time, for the construction of the stone wall is vital to the defence of the city. The funds taken out of the treasury will be repaid into it at a rate no less than 50 talents a year, on top of the 10% annual tithe. With the additional funds available we will extend the wall to cover a larger area so that we may account for the city's growth, as well as the construction of a sea wall, to ward off naval raids and assault. [-320 talents, wall will cover a larger area of the city, wall will protect the shore and harbour, four turns to build, will draw from the Sacred Treasury].
 
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The Liburnians aren't an immediate threat, and, if we get the sea wall built, won't be a major long term one either. There are a lot of other powers on the Adriatic before they get to us.

I'm not really sure what people think we gain on denying Rhyps to Harpos, to be honest.
 
[X] One King among the Peuketii, one steady hand to deal with, one whelp to crush. What do we care for the fears of the meek in the face of the strong? Harpos has shown himself an extremely capable ruler who is willing to rebuff the Dauni. We can find no such friends among the people of Rhyps, whose only advantage is they cower before us.

To avoid splitting,

[X] USER MOTION Harpos shall be King of the Peuketti, but at the hand of Eretria. He shall be elevated in a ceremony at Eretria a year hence, allowing him time to address the fears of the people of Rhyps, where he will reswear his oaths of allegiance in his new role, even as Rhyps swears to him. It will also allow him to reassure himself as to the welfare of his children guesting in the city.

[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai, and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.




[X] We shall open the Sacred Treasury this one time, for the construction of the stone wall is vital to the defence of the city. The funds taken out of the treasury will be repaid into it at a rate no less than 50 talents a year, on top of the 10% annual tithe. With the additional funds available we will extend the wall to cover a larger area so that we may account for the city's growth, as well as the construction of a sea wall, to ward off naval raids and assault. [-320 talents, wall will cover a larger area of the city, wall will protect the shore and harbour, four turns to build, will draw from the Sacred Treasury].
 
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Ironanvil1 said:
The Liburnians aren't an immediate threat, and, if we get the sea wall built, won't be a major long term one either. There are a lot of other powers on the Adriatic before they get to us.

I'm not really sure what people think we gain on denying Rhyps to Harpos, to be honest.
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They sent fifty pentekonteroi against us once without having to conquer everything inbetween. They are not an empire, rather Adriatic Vikings, and we have 400 talents in our treasury, and no real port defenses. To me we are a juicy target for a raid, as soon as they realise (from traders for example) we are fortifying, they will have an incentive to bamd together and come with say 9 triremes and 80 pentekonteroi.

To say nothing about their wish for revenge.

Kerkyra won't help us, their hands are full alreafy with the Corintheans (who I suspect arr reafy to snatch our League allies away from us); Athens is too far for this. We need to organise an anti Liburnian coalition before it's too late!

EDIT: I agree with you about Rhyps, we shouldn't let ourselves be constrained too much by modern morals on that matter and it is not like having it will make Harpos more of a threat to us.
 
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Yanez said:
They sent fifty pentekonteroi against us once without having to conquer everything inbetween. They are not an empire, rather Adriatic Vikings, and we have 400 talents in our treasury, and no real port defenses. To me we are a juicy target for a raid, as soon as they realise (from traders for example) we are fortifying, they will have an incentive to bamd together and come with say 9 triremes and 80 pentekonteroi.

To say nothing about their wish for revenge.

Kerkyra won't help us, their hands are full alreafy with the Corintheans (who I suspect arr reafy to snatch our League allies away from us); Athens is too far for this. We need to organise an anti Liburnian coalition before it's too late!
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The last lot of Illyrian pirates to attack us are still here - as our slaves, or at the bottom of the harbour. We annihilated a fifty ship fleet, with 30% of the ships we now have, and have spent the time since then with our warriors slaughtering all who come against us - I doubt any Illyrians think of us as an easy target.
 
Yanez said:
They sent fifty pentekonteroi against us once without having to conquer everything inbetween. They are not an empire, rather Adriatic Vikings, and we have 400 talents in our treasury, and no real port defenses. To me we are a juicy target for a raid, as soon as they realise (from traders for example) we are fortifying, they will have an incentive to bamd together and come with say 9 triremes and 80 pentekonteroi.
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And how are the Liburni suddenly going to pull an entire fleet out of thin air? They're still recovering from the blow Eusebios dealt them.

They aren't going to show up with an even larger fleet than last time, and even if they did our navy is in much better shape now.
 
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