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Magna Graecia: Victory's Children (A City State Quest)

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[X] We cannot simply lay low all our allies when we see fit for the sake of empowering one man. He is capable, it is true, but the people of Rhyps have done nothing to deserve being turned over, and their fear keeps them well in line. There is little fear of them turning away from us, so why give Harpos a further boon so quickly?
[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai,and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.
[X] We need to extend the wall to cover a larger area, so that we may account for the city's growth and plan it in a more orderly fashion. [-270 talents will cover a larger area of the city, three turns to build].
 
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Cetashwayo said:
There's a reason that you are territorially divorced from the barbaroi. Doing so would be more or less declaring you're going to wipe them off the face of the earth, which I doubt either they or Harpos would appreciate.
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How about something along the lines of:
[x] USER MOTION - Allow Harpos to crown himself king of the Peuketti, however, due to it's closeness to Eretria and strategic importance, any administrative changes there must be approved by Eretria
 
Shebe Zuu said:
How about something along the lines of:
[x] USER MOTION - Allow Harpos to crown himself king of the Peuketti, however, due to it's closeness to Eretria and strategic importance, any administrative changes there must be approved by Eretria
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Harpos would refuse that and prefer just to not be crowned. At least with the "guarantee of their safety" he doesn't have the embarrassment of having to beg Papa Herodion for any change and can negotiate terms with the people of Rhyps that way.
 
Shebe Zuu said:
How about something along the lines of:
[x] USER MOTION - Allow Harpos to crown himself king of the Peuketti, however, due to it's closeness to Eretria and strategic importance, any administrative changes there must be approved by Eretria
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That looks like the worst of both worlds. Rhyps have to bow to Harpos, and Harpos doesn't get to act as King.
 
[X] We need to have the wall fortify the shore and harbour, so that we are protected against naval raids and assault. [-270 talents, wall will protect the shoreand harbour, three turns to build].

Not sure on the other two but I do think we need to give Harpos control of Rhyps, I think the difference is that Canosa often lorded it over the others. Still will need to go back and check the first thread to see if Rhyps helped or hurt Harpos in the past. As far as the wall it does us no good to build a wall and then have the city expand beyond or it or be too cramp.
@Cetashwayo can we user motion the wider wall to leave space in the planning for thickening it later to make sure we don't build into that space.

Edit: Changed to sea wall. Have a full explanation post later.
 
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Cetashwayo said:
Harpos would refuse that and prefer just to not be crowned. At least with the "guarantee of their safety" he doesn't have the embarrassment of having to beg Papa Herodion for any change and can negotiate terms with the people of Rhyps that way.
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In that case I think I'll just go with keeping Rhyps independant then.

[X] We cannot simply lay low all our allies when we see fit for the sake of empowering one man. He is capable, it is true, but the people of Rhyps have done nothing to deserve being turned over, and their fear keeps them well in line. There is little fear of them turning away from us, so why give Harpos a further boon so quickly?
[X] Dispatch Kallias east to Hellas, in the face of growing Korinthian trade in the Adriatic and their needling of the Kerkyrans. If need be, get some kind of assurance that Athens will come to Eretria's aid if Korinthos goes to war, negating their naval advantage.
[X] We shall open the Sacred Treasury this one time, for theconstruction of the stone wall is vital to the defence of the city. The funds taken out of the treasury will be repaid into it at a rate no less than 50 talents a year, on top of the10% annual tithe. With the additional funds available we will extend the wall to cover a largerarea so that we may account forthe city's growth, as well as the construction of a sea wall, to ward off naval raids and assault. [-320talents, wall will cover a larger area of the city, wall will protectthe shore and harbour, four turns to build, will draw from the SacredTreasury].


Seldomus the Merchant speaks, having returned from a long trade expedition:
"What folly is this I have returned to? Harpos may be a capable man, but he remains a barbaroi - and his ambition cannot be allowed to go unchecked. I deeply regret I was absent for the last debate, for I surely would have laid a powerful case against this misguided venture in kingmaking. The damage, now, is done, but this ingrate seeks yet more from us! Shall we let him into our very walls next? Rhyps is far too close to our interests to be entrusted to some Barbaroi petty king! Begone with him, and let this matter be finished! To speak now of happier beginnings, the wall we so much desire finally starts to take shape. There are many avenues available to us, to protect against siege and seaborne foes, but I counsel we must prepare for what WILL happen - the expansion of our fair city. We cannot know the nature of the enemies we will face, but with the blessing of the divine marriage, our city will grow ever larger, and our wall will be ready. Finally, i must address the most distressing matter of the CONFOUNDED KORINTHIAN MENACE! While honest traders like myself attempt to gain a foothold for our goods, we are constantly rebuffed by these scoundrels. WE MUST TAKE ACTION! This threatens our city's prosperity, by dispatching the Xenoparakletor we will gain a better understanding of the confused situation in Hellas in the bargain."
 
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phil03 said:
How would Harpos take a ''guarantee of safety'' clause in any case?
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He'd accept it, but the people of Rhyps don't really want that.

Void Stalker said:
@Cetashwayo can we user motion the wider wall to leave space in the planning for thickening it later to make sure we don't build into that space.
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Thickening isn't just building more wall, the specific stones that need to be cut need to be larger and Greek walls tend to be composite anyways.
 
[X] USER MOTION Harpos shall be King of the Peuketti, but at the hand of Eretria. He shall be elevated in a ceremony at Eretria a year hence, allowing him time to address the fears of the people of Rhyps, where he will reswear his oaths of allegiance in his new role, even as Rhyps swears to him. It will also allow him to reassure himself as to the welfare of his children guesting in the city.

[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai, and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.

[X] We shall open the Sacred Treasury this one time, for the construction of the stone wall is vital to the defence of the city. The funds taken out of the treasury will be repaid into it at a rate no less than 50 talents a year, on top of the 10% annual tithe. With the additional funds available we will extend the wall to cover a larger area so that we may account for the city's growth, as well as the construction of a sea wall, to ward off naval raids and assault. [-320 talents, wall will cover a larger area of the city, wall will protect the shore and harbour, four turns to build, will draw from the Sacred Treasury].
 
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@Cetashwayo could we pick multiple Wall options, and build the Wall in segments? We could have a portion of the Stone Wall built and have the rest be wooden palisade, until more money comes in.
 
Considering that adding in a seawall is easier than the other two options, I will switch

[X] We cannot simply lay low all our allies when we see fit for the sake of empowering one man. He is capable, it is true, but the people of Rhyps have done nothing to deserve being turned over, and their fear keeps them well in line. There is little fear of them turning away from us, so why give Harpos a further boon so quickly?
[X] Dispatch Kallias east to Hellas, in the face of growing Korinthian trade in the Adriatic and their needling of the Kerkyrans. If need be, get some kind of assurance that Athens will come to Eretria's aid if Korinthos goes to war, negating their naval advantage.
[X] We need to extend the wall to cover a larger area, so that we may account for the city's growth and plan it in a more orderly fashion. [-270 talents will cover a larger area of the city, three turns to build].

The reason thickening the wall is going to be more expensive is simply that we have more wall. That is not necessarily a bad thing and if Ymaryn have taught me anything it is that orderly cities create healthier people.
 
Cetashwayo said:
There is no real reason to have thick sea walls; any kind of sea wall is enough to repulse naval actions in this era.
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Thank you, that helps a lot with figuring out the wall and planning for future expansion. One last thing for the wider wall, how long before the city would need those to keep everything inside the city?

Alright with the info we have on the wall I am going to suggest the sea walls right now as those will not need to be thickened later. Now this will be costly but my idea is this: we build sea walls now over the next 3 years for our stone wall. During that time we take other buildings that improve our income with other buildings. Doing so will increase our funding and allow us to save up for a major expansion to the wall to do both the wider wall and thicker with built in supplies. This is a long term plan and we will not have the wider walls or extra siege time before then, however this does secure us from threats at sea and we are seeing increased naval raids and possible naval enemies.
 
HanEmpire said:
How about building the foundations first and having wooden palisades and structures above it until the money comes in?
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Cease attempting to avoid making difficult choices :V

Void Stalker said:
One last thing for the wider wall, how long before the city would need those to keep everything inside the city?
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I'm not sure what you're asking. Do you mean when would that wall fill up? I don't know, but the city is really rapidly growing.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Cease attempting to avoid making difficult choices :V



I'm not sure what you're asking. Do you mean when would that wall fill up? I don't know, but the city is really rapidly growing.
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An estimate of when the non wider wall would fill up. Basically seeing if we can build the normal wall with the sea wall option and then plan to do an expansion on the stone wall several years down the line to expand it, which may include removing the land side of the current one or going for ever expanding sections or wall rings.

Edit: I do expect doing it this way would be expensive since you have the building cost plus the tearing down of the existing wall.
 
Void Stalker said:
An estimate of when the non wider wall would fill up. Basically seeing if we can build the normal wall with the sea wall option and then plan to do an expansion on the stone wall several years down the line to expand it, which may include removing the land side of the current one or going for ever expanding sections or wall rings.
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The city is expanding rapidly but in lieu of more advanced statistics and census they really don't know. One of the advantages of a wider wall is the ability to plan out roads and make a more planned city.
 
[X] We cannot simply lay low all our allies when we see fit for the sake of empowering one man. He is capable, it is true, but the people of Rhyps have done nothing to deserve being turned over, and their fear keeps them well in line. There is little fear of them turning away from us, so why give Harpos a further boon so quickly?
[X] Dispatch Kallias east to Hellas, in the face of growing Korinthian trade in the Adriatic and their needling of the Kerkyrans. If need be, get some kind of assurance that Athens will come to Eretria's aid if Korinthos goes to war, negating their naval advantage.
[X] We need to extend the wall to cover a larger area, so that we may account for the city's growth and plan it in a more orderly fashion. [-270 talents will cover a larger area of the city, three turns to build].

City planning will make life tremendously easier in the future.
 
Void Stalker said:
An estimate of when the non wider wall would fill up. Basically seeing if we can build the normal wall with the sea wall option and then plan to do an expansion on the stone wall several years down the line to expand it, which may include removing the land side of the current one or going for ever expanding sections or wall rings.

Edit: I do expect doing it this way would be expensive since you have the building cost plus the tearing down of the existing wall.
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I really think that having an expanded wall is the best option, as it's both the most difficult thing to change later, and the only option we can guarantee will be useful - we may not know if our enemies will come by sea or by land, but we do know the city will get bigger.
 
[x] We need to thicken the wall to make it impervious to all comers and so that we may store grain in its cavities. [-270 talents, wall will be thicker and extend the ability's to hold out against siege for one year, three turns to build].
[X] We cannot simply lay low all our allies when we see fit for the sake of empowering one man. He is capable, it is true, but the people of Rhyps have done nothing to deserve being turned over, and their fear keeps them well in line. There is little fear of them turning away from us, so why give Harpos a further boon so quickly?
[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai, and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.
 
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