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Magna Graecia: Victory's Children (A City State Quest)

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[X] Provide more land to Harpos so that he may build his fortress. He has proven himself a good and loyal subject, and if we do not reward good and loyal subjects, what kind of masters are we? A dog who is beaten when he is good and given treats when he is bad is not useful to anyone.

Eutychos of the Exoria speaks: Much have I seen as a mercenary of Carthage, but empty promises of land or riches eventually result in mutinous soldiers or subjects. Eretria should not give an open promise of Dauni land to the Canosans to reward future service, for there is no guarantee for either. Nor should Eretria treat Harpos as a heeled hound. Though he may be affecting Hellenism, his words and actions serve primarily himself and his domain. Whether he intends to pit his new masters against his old rivals, we cannot know. We must be wary of treachery, while making use of their service. On the state of the polis, sturdy stone walls are a priority in my eyes, as the promise of future Lucani retaliation and the threat of Dauni invasion make the need obvious. War is inevitable, so we must prepare while it is possible. Eretria has overcome great odds, but we must not rest upon our laurels. Enemies surround us, and should such misfortune as more than one foe marching against us occur, we had best be up to the challenge. Though I am naught but a lowly skirmisher, I bring my own equipment, won through battle, which I shall present to smiths and carpenters in an attempt to replicate. All must contribute if we wish our fair city to thrive.

(May we please get a shot at reverse-engineering the thureos from Gallic shields?)
 
[X] Provide more land to Harpos so that he may build his fortress. He has proven himself a good and loyal subject, and if we do not reward good and loyal subjects, what kind of masters are we? A dog who is beaten when he is good and given treats when he is bad is not useful to anyone.
 
Shebe Zuu said:
@Ironanvil1
While I agree with the general sentiment I don't think we should be going around promising people Dauni land - first: because we don't have any plans to take that land in the near future, and second: because if the Dauni hear about it they might think that we DO have plans to take their land and launch a preemptive strike. So yeah, that strikes me as writing checks we can't cash and buying us some unnecessary trouble with it.
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The point isn't to promise them Dauni land. It's to emphasise to the Canosan oligarchs the point that Harpos has grasped, that aiding his overlord in their endeavours gains rewards, and should a war with the Dauni develop, the Canosans' assistance will be richly rewarded.

Though to be honest, I expect the Canosans to already be benefiting significantly from their link to Eretria, given iron production is one of their major industries and iron manufacture is one of ours. They'll no doubt be the major trading entreport for Hellenic goods into the interior, shipping up river from Eretria.

@Cetashwayo, is a User Motion addendum viable here?

[X] Provide more land to Harpos so that he may build his fortress. He has proven himself a good and loyal subject, and if we do not reward good and loyal subjects, what kind of masters are we? A dog who is beaten when he is good and given treats when he is bad is not useful to anyone. But a good sheepdog should continue to herd sheep, and it is meet that Harpos provide us a token of his respect from the flocks he will raise on the new land, as his overlords.
 
[X] Provide more land to Harpos so that he may build his fortress. He has proven himself a good and loyal subject, and if we do not reward good and loyal subjects, what kind of masters are we? A dog who is beaten when he is good and given treats when he is bad is not useful to anyone.
 
Ironanvil1 said:
The point isn't to promise them Dauni land. It's to emphasise to the Canosan oligarchs the point that Harpos has grasped, that aiding his overlord in their endeavours gains rewards, and should a war with the Dauni develop, the Canosans' assistance will be richly rewarded.
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Except we are already doing so by example. We have no need to promise checks we cannot cash to do.
 
[X] Provide more land to Harpos so that he may build his fortress. He has proven himself a good and loyal subject, and if we do not reward good and loyal subjects, what kind of masters are we? A dog who is beaten when he is good and given treats when he is bad is not useful to anyone.
 
[X] Provide more land to Harpos so that he may build his fortress. He has proven himself a good and loyal subject, and if we do not reward good and loyal subjects, what kind of masters are we? A dog who is beaten when he is good and given treats when he is bad is not useful to anyone.

I, Bryzos the Psiloi, vote for this. Because I don't think we should reward laziness.
 
I feel like it should be said that if Harpos wants anything ELSE after this though, we need to shoot him down hard unless he does something truly amazing to earn it. While I think the rewards are worth it, we need to recognise that we are unbalancing the Peuketti equation here and have to work extra hard to keep some semblance of equality between Sanappe and Canosa from this point forward. Just promising the Canosans land isn't really a solution either because with Azeton gone we really don't have any more (easily accessible/capturable) land to promise. We need to think of some other carrot to use. Perhaps a more favorable trade deal?

Edit: Also, @Ironanvil1 - what is it exactly you expect to get out of these sheep? I don't really see the point. We're already getting tribute from Harpos and presumably that tribute will increase when he gets more land so wouldn't adding on additional tribute requirements on top of what he already owes us just be angering him unnecessarily?
Adhoc vote count started by Shebe Zuu on Sep 4, 2017 at 1:29 AM, finished with 49 posts and 25 votes.
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[X] Provide more land to Harpos so that he may build his fortress. He has proven himself a good and loyal subject, and if we do not reward good and loyal subjects, what kind of masters are we? A dog who is beaten when he is good and given treats when he is bad is not useful to anyone.
 
[X] Provide more land to Harpos so that he may build his fortress. He has proven himself a good and loyal subject, and if we do not reward good and loyal subjects, what kind of masters are we? A dog who is beaten when he is good and given treats when he is bad is not useful to anyone.

Failing to reward a subject for their help would be dishonorable and obscene. We are Greeks, not conniving Barbori.
 
Shebe Zuu said:
I feel like it should be said that if Harpos wants anything ELSE after this though, we need to shoot him down hard unless he does something truly amazing to earn it. While I think the rewards are worth it, we need to recognise that we are unbalancing the Peuketti equation here and have to work extra hard to keep some semblance of equality between Sanappe and Canosa from this point forward. Just promising the Canosans land isn't really a solution either because with Azeton gone we really don't have any more (easily accessible/capturable) land to promise. We need to think of some other carrot to use. Perhaps a more favorable trade deal?
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The idea with starting off Sannape and Canosa balanced wasn't to keep them balanced - it was to spur exactly what's happened, one of them seeking to outdo the other in being a helpful vassal. We thus want to encourage Canosa with the idea that Harpos being favoured here isn't a permanent matter, and they can still regain the top spot if they can come up with shinies for us too.

Edit: Also, @Ironanvil1 - what is it exactly you expect to get out of these sheep? I don't really see the point. We're already getting tribute from Harpos and presumably that tribute will increase when he gets more land so wouldn't adding on additional tribute requirements on top of what he already owes us just be angering him unnecessarily?
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It's a symbolic token, rather than a major economic tribute, just to have a permanent annual reminder that Harpos holds the former lands of Azetion at the will of Eretria, not in his own right. Symbols are important.
 
[X] Provide more land to Harpos so that he may build his fortress. He has proven himself a good and loyal subject, and if we do not reward good and loyal subjects, what kind of masters are we? A dog who is beaten when he is good and given treats when he is bad is not useful to anyone.

I don't trust him but if he proven to be disloyal we got an opportunity to have the land hellenized instead of ruling subjugated barbaroi.

If he proven to be loyal then we could in the future make them our accepted culture and maybe stop calling them barbaroi. :p
 
Ironanvil1 said:
The idea with starting off Sannape and Canosa balanced wasn't to keep them balanced - it was to spur exactly what's happened, one of them seeking to outdo the other in being a helpful vassal. We thus want to encourage Canosa with the idea that Harpos being favoured here isn't a permanent matter, and they can still regain the top spot if they can come up with shinies for us too.
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I suppose... but we still need to have some shinies to offer them other than land cause we really don't have any more land to give.

Ironanvil1 said:
It's a symbolic token, rather than a major economic tribute, just to have a permanent annual reminder that Harpos holds the former lands of Azetion at the will of Eretria, not in his own right. Symbols are important.
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If that's the point I think a more effective way of doing that might be to have him hang Eretrian banners from that fort he wants to build. Lets everyone who sees it know that he's holding it in our name.

Edit: On second thought that may be a tad anachronistic. Care to weigh in @Cetashwayo ?
 
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[X] Provide more land to Harpos so that he may build his fortress. He has proven himself a good and loyal subject, and if we do not reward good and loyalsubjects, what kind of masters are we? A dog who is beaten when he is good and given treats when he is bad is not useful to anyone.
 
"You cannot trust a barbaroi!" Dareios yelled as he jumped on top of someone else's rock. "To betray their betters is simply in their inferior nature, Harpos is no different in this. Mark my words, if we grant him more land and power than the Canosans he will attempt to "liberate" his people from our benevolent rule as soon as it is expedient for him. Divide and rule, my friends! Keep our Peuketii vassals equally strong and they will become rivals for our favor, never united and always too weak to even think of opposing us."

[X] Provide an equal amount of land around Azetion to both Harpos and the Canosans to maintain the principle of equality between the Peuketii cities. What is loyalty among barbaroi? They cannot be trusted with such a power imbalance.
 
Cetashwayo said:
It was believed that they saw the elevation of Harpos as a major snub and thus did maintained distance, although this was only speculation that Kallias the xenoparakletor shared with the camp as they neared the city.
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I thought we decided to do the whole "you're all equally worthless in the eyes of Eretria so none of you will be king over the others." When did we elevate Harpos?
 
Versharl said:
I thought we decided to do the whole "you're all equally worthless in the eyes of Eretria so none of you will be king over the others." When did we elevate Harpos?
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Canosa was very firmly top dog amongst the Peuketti before we conquered them. Raising Harpos and Sannape to equality with them under our vassalage was elevating him in their eyes.
 
@Ironanvil1 So, basically a symbolic form of somewhat increased tribute on his new lands. I like it. Since you appear to have enough supporters I will start voting for your Write-In...

[X] Provide more land to Harpos so that he may build his fortress. He has proven himself a good and loyal subject, and if we do not reward good and loyal subjects, what kind of masters are we? A dog who is beaten when he is good and given treats when he is bad is not useful to anyone. But a good sheepdog should continue to herd sheep, and it is moot that Harpos provide us a token of his respect from the flocks he will raise on the new land, as his overlords.
 
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