...whoops? Sorry, just used to the idea that quest mechanics are also used as ways to demonstrate character, and changing mechanics demonstrate changing conditions.

Anyways the QM has straightened out that this vote is about which direction we want to push Zelda.

It occurs to me that the you don't have problems may result in her justifying anything and everything because Link said she didn't have problems, so more reasons not to vote for that.
 
Well, to be fair, some people *have* stated that we are going to have to get through Zelda's issues before we can think of actually taking on the Empire/rebuild Hyrule.

But yeah. From what I see this vote is basically the first step/half step to trying to come to grips with Zelda's issues before we can actually start working through it. It'll take a lot of work to do so.
 
Fun fact, ya'll coulda prevented thi-

Look, I'm going to be straight with you all, you really should have seen this coming. To say I've been frustrated is understating things. Especially as from here on out things will be very character driven. I can't say much more due to spoilers.

Damnit IB.

(But yeah if ya'll had cottened on about this issue earlier and tried to address it it probably wouldn't have gotten this serious.)
 
Right now the priority is to address her self hatred and feelings of uselessness. I like the last option; she (like her canon self) simply needs to learn how to call out the power she's had this whole time. Her feelings are what does it. She needs to latch on to that moment with the light arrow and focus on what she was feeling there, and tweak it and practice and otherwise claim her birthright.

Unfortunately that's a heap of meta knowledge so I don't know how our Link could express this idea sincerely. Did he even see/feel the light arrow strike? The LAST thing we need is for her to interpret our words as empty.
 
Look, I'm going to be straight with you all, you really should have seen this coming. To say I've been frustrated is understating things. Especially as from here on out things will be very character driven.
Well, yeah. I mean, we could see Zelda's inferiority complex coming from practically the first time she introduced herself; it's been a fairly common topic of conversation around here. I'm curious as to why you're so frustrated, though, since the decision points we've had access to nearly universally ask incredibly limited questions, things like: "So where do you go next?" or: "What potions/gear do you make/buy?" or, especially: "Write in your battle tactics." When, exactly, were we supposed to start working on Zelda's deep-seated emotional issues? While we were fighting the Octorok?
 
Right now the priority is to address her self hatred and feelings of uselessness. I like the last option; she (like her canon self) simply needs to learn how to call out the power she's had this whole time. Her feelings are what does it. She needs to latch on to that moment with the light arrow and focus on what she was feeling there, and tweak it and practice and otherwise claim her birthright.

Unfortunately that's a heap of meta knowledge so I don't know how our Link could express this idea sincerely. Did he even see/feel the light arrow strike? The LAST thing we need is for her to interpret our words as empty.
This is not BOTW Zelda.

This Zelda is half-shiekah.
 
This is not BOTW Zelda.

This Zelda is half-shiekah.
If anything, that makes her more broken.

A few things: So far, every update I just checked has been a sort of focused writein where we get a few options to direct our focus and a lot of leeway otherwise. This means our best bet is probably to add more to writeins so that we can do more per update, and not just leave problems to boil.

Also, is it just me or is Mipha also crushing on us? Because that's going to be A Problem if she is.
 
Unfortunately that's a heap of meta knowledge so I don't know how our Link could express this idea sincerely. Did he even see/feel the light arrow strike? The LAST thing we need is for her to interpret our words as empty.
He was told about it, and he's seen Zelda call upon the goddesses power at the shrine.

Well, yeah. I mean, we could see Zelda's inferiority complex coming from practically the first time she introduced herself; it's been a fairly common topic of conversation around here. I'm curious as to why you're so frustrated, though, since the decision points we've had access to nearly universally ask incredibly limited questions, things like: "So where do you go next?" or: "What potions/gear do you make/buy?" or, especially: "Write in your battle tactics." When, exactly, were we supposed to start working on Zelda's deep-seated emotional issues? While we were fighting the Octorok?
What I found frustrating were people ignoring the characters actions in the updates. What they said, how they acted, that kind of stuff. It was most frustrating, however, in context of stuff I can't talk about yet. Suffice to say, you will be needing to really pay attention to characters behavior in the future. This update, though partly addressing a longstanding issue, is more a big flashing "This is where the quest is going" warning.

To use a hopefully non-spoilerly response, consider that this quest is very much taking cues from the witcher, partly in prep for my eventual return to the Witcher quest I run. Now, while Witcher loves the "Oh, you didn't realize this guy was lying to you? Ten people just died horribly and it's all your fault" this vote, as Link explains and other people realize, is what will give him the best hook to actually get Zelda to open up and start to heal slowly. A fairly... well less life and death introduction but with still decent stakes.

This is why the vote is important, and why there's no right answer. You will have to decide for yourselves which option is how you want to approach Zelda's issues as this initial foray.
 
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Well, with our votes pretty much being "I'm with you no matter how horrible you are.", "My loyalty is to whomever is right, for the right price/greater good.", and "I don't understand girls, so I'm going to ignore this really important issue." The closest of which to even not screwing this up, is ironically the last one, and it still glosses straight over the issue.

And because we can't tell Zelda that wanting to be her own person isn't being selfish, and that anyone trying to mold her into something she doesn't want to be is wrong, simply because "Link doesn't know what happened to her" We really only have two choices out of the five. Ignoring her pain and telling her she's strong, or encouraging a martyr complex by "affirming" that being a compassionate living being isn't selfish, only replacing compassionate with willing to risk her life to rescue suffering strangers. Yeah... sorry @ImmortalsBlade, but this is way to scripted to be anything but a forced choice vote to keep a quest on the pre-conceived tracks.

And while I don't remember votes to talk to Zelda about the issue, I also don't remember any hint at telling the questors to sit on the character's laurels and chat about it. So, yeah, can't lay this ready to blow bomb on the questors buddy. You kept posting 'plan' requests for the next part of the journey, not what to do 'right now'. Much less blatant hints to take the time to talk to Zelda about her time in the Shiekah village. So, to your accusations that it's our fault this situation is here, I ask, where did you give us the option to address it prior? 'Cause I honestly can't remember. And I'll freely admit that my memory isn't that great, but I'd like to think that I haven't completely forgotten the previous plan requests, and their content/context from the last two and half weeks since I read, and agitated some about the week and change lull in activity around the time I started reading the quest.


But, irregardless, we really only have two shitty choices, martyr complex, or nice guy politely saying, "And the problem is?"

[Edit]Wait, you're actually admitting that you didn't prompt us? Then why the hell are you bitching at the questors for not taking the initiative to do it themselves when you kept pushing us forward!?
 
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[] We're your friends, and no matter what we'll stick beside you.

This I think is the best option to go forward.
Friendship is something she's lacked, and shows she's not alone.
 
This is not BOTW Zelda.

This Zelda is half-shiekah.
This changes nothing, she probably feels even MORE useless for all the tangible good (i.e. not much) she's accomplished with that training. Even though IIRC that training was more about keeping her ass alive than it was preparing her to accomplish anything in particular.

We need her to focus on the idea that maybe she's not ready to be on the front line of the biggest fights JUST YET, but that light arrow trick means she's damn close. Assuming that's the first time she pulled that trick out, at least. Her face doesn't need to be selfish either; from a cold, pragmatic standpoint, more people would likely be willing to follow her if her face was intact.

Healing her face gives her more options. Shiekah training gives her more options. Light arrows give more options. It's a shitty situation and NO ONE is blaming her for any aspect of her behavior or (lack of) progress/results to date, except herself.

But none of this is expressed in that last choice, and the last choice is best because it is ABOUT her, not DESPITE her.
 
[Edit]Wait, you're actually admitting that you didn't prompt us? Then why the hell are you bitching at the questors for not taking the initiative to do it themselves when you kept pushing us forward!?
Because I'm not bitching at you guys for not taking the initiative. I'm frustrated at lack of discussion and people missing stuff because of it.

Here, if you want a great example of what I mean go back and read this update. Hopefully, you'll realize what you guys missed and understand my point and why I'm being tough on you guys now because things will be getting hard.

Consider it a free spoiler to your next big quest.
 
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A wild konami appears~

"You'll only put them in danger."

Zelda's expression contorted into an expression of pure rage, "I am NOT letting my subjects be enslaved!"

"Sheik, those are shock bolts. If one gets fired it'll kill everyone within several meters of where that bolt lands. Believe me, I'd love nothing more than to run in there and free those people. But I won't let innocent people die."

She grips her reigns tightly, gritting her teeth, "Dammit, dammit, dammit, DAMMIT!"

She turns her horse around, just as a few guards were noticing the two of you with your horses at the side of the road, and sends her horse into a gallop.

You catch up with her easily enough, her horse was nothing compared to Epona. She eventually slows her mount to a trot, and you get a good look at her face. Even with the rain you could tell tears were flowing, her face scrunched up in anger, her reigns clutched so tightly they were digging into her hands.

"Dammit... Dammit..."

You don't know what to say to her...

For a long time it feels as if Link has been the 'wisdom' to what should be Zelda's primary domain. The girl is pugnacious, hot headed, impulsive, not a little bit neurotic, and most importantly untempered in comparison to the usual calm and cool Zelda's we see.

She's like a mix of the adventurousness and hotblooded Tetra and SS Zelda's youthful innocence, but without the open seas life experience of the former nor the calm surety of the latter. Probably because RB Zelda's developmental period was utterly borked with a razorwire eggbeater.

Half of her adult role models were killed by a plague, the rest of her family and friends (supposedly until she discovers there are other miraculous survivors) murdered by notTywin, sent on the run, and holed up in a tiny little village with nothing in the way of news or outside communication. Is it any wonder Zelda became so obsessed with knowledge?

Previously, as a child she was shown as rambunctious and playful. I can't confirm whether she was a bookworm before everything, but signs point to her obsession with Sheika technology and general knowledge as a coping mechanism for what occurred during her childhood.

If she knows everything, than she can fix everything, right? She Has To. Because she's the princess, the chosen of the goddess, the rightful ruler of Hyrule, a girl who doesn't want to lose everything she has all over again.

And really, she's mentally just a little girl. Ish. Sure she's grown up, but her total life experience is supremely sheltered and filled with all sorts of dogma from her expectant subjects. A further point is how often Link tends to point out that she hasn't really changed all that much since their childhood.

It really doesn't help that she's being thrown back into the nightmare that was her childhood face first. Zelda's peaceful little dream bubble filled with the occasional nightmare of her perceived duties has been popped with all of the shit that's happened to her.

Yiga assassin could be dealt with, it was a reminder that she wasn't safe, yes, but wounds can be healed. Castle Town was the next eye opener. Seeing what was happening to Zora lands and the later reveal that the rebellion is only eight people strong was like shining a flashlight into her forcefully opened eyelids.

Then Link 'dies'.

Jesus, is it any wonder that Zelda's cracking apart at the seams?

I get the feeling if things continue on, Triforce pieces are going to change hands.

Ganon has the courage to say fuck destiny.
Link has the wisdom to survive the world.
Zelda is powerless. Again.

"It isn't right, it isn't right that they're able to get away with this," She growls, adjusting the pack on her shoulders, her feet sinking into the mud as she walked ever forwards.

"We're going to meet up with the resistance. We'll be able to do something then, maybe they even know of a shrine that might have... something that'll help."

A little bit of hope that too is almost shattered. I think Zelda really would've lost it if it wasn't her childhood adult figures and playmate we discovered. As is, she's coping.

"You know? I bet they hate Hylian's and this is all pointless!" Zelda bitterly says after checking your position on the Sheikah Slate and you both realized how far you were from your goal still, "I wouldn't blame them, their people have been enslaved and their land despoiled by the Empire. I'd hate us all as well!"

"Zelda, that's the swamp talking."

Zelda lets out a breath, looking back to you, "Yeah it is... Ugh, its getting dark."

You nod, "Yeah, it's going to be too dangerous to continue at this rate. Is there someplace nearby that isn't marshland?"

Far from the first time Link's had to be Zelda's voice of reason, but you can tell that things are getting pretty bad if her self-hatred is starting reach Taylor levels.

"Shackles. Those are shackles," Zelda says quietly, stepping back from you. She glances around, in face contorting in fury, "No wonder this wasn't on the map, it's a road to transport slaves!"

She was hyperventilating, shaking with anger, "They probably use this shrine as a stopping! GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!" She
"Curse them..." She mutters, "Curse them for their evil, for making me want... want to hurt everyone responsible. To... to want to ki-BAH!" She snarls, slamming her fist into the pillar.

"I.... I refuse to be the Princess who only sits back and prays. I need to do something, anything for those suffering! For Mipha, for Medli, the Rito, the Zora and everyone else who've suffered because of those with evil in their hearts!" She says to you, eyes alight with conviction.
"Topaz..." Zelda mutters, brows furrowing in confusion before her eyes widen in horror, "Oh goddesses, you put shock collars on them!"
Realization seems to dawn on Zelda, and her next words are spoken with anger you had never suspected she was capable of, "You... you...!"

She raises her bow, arrow nocked as she snarls, "I'm going to kill every last one of you!"

Snapping point.

"M-Mipha?!" Zelda sputtered out, her expression that of utter disbelief.

Barely saved by Mipha appearing, but the state of the world and Zelda's burdens only grow further entrenched.

---

Latest chapter only brings up Zelda's powerlessness again. She can't save her friends, and if she can't save her friends, how the hell is she supposed to help her people?

As for current vote choices... well, here's what I think she'll believe internally despite her outward response.

[] We're your friends, and no matter what we'll stick beside you.
"But you're all going to die because you're so close to me."

[] No one who worries so much about the plight of others is a selfish monster.

"I have to be perfect, but I want to be free."

[] We all know you're a great person, we're with you because of that.

"Am I? Are you?"

[] Nothing is wrong with you, you've been dealing with so much.

"And so has everyone else Link. Why am I so weak?"

[] You can get through this, you're so much stronger than you think you are.

"I'm not."

Keep in mind that whatever our response is, we have to make it true. Zelda's not going to really believe a word we say. She might cling onto it like a lifeline, but she won't really believe it.
 
[] You can get through this, you're so much stronger than you think you are.

Of all of the options that were given. this one seems to be the only one that speaks directly to Zelda and not at her. Unfortunately I am not a psychiatrist so I cant tell you what the best choice is right now. what we need is help from someone who either is a psychiatrist or knows someone here on the board or IRL who is one.
 
[ ] We're your friends, and no matter what we'll stick beside you.

Personally I'm for this option. Whatever her self perceived issues are, she has a support structure and people who care. Where one is weak, a group is strong. She doesn't have to change if she doesn't want to, but if she does we will support that too.

No matter what path we take, Zelda is going to feel undeserving of anything, it's just where she is mentally. But I think this is the path that shows people close to her actually do care about her, whatever she believes. Yes the fear that she'll lose her resurfaced friends again in a permanent manner, but it gives her something immediate to focus on in the short and long term. In fact, she's done this by practicing swordplay with Link. We just have to make more effort to be that voice of reason that ensures she channels her energy positively.

Eventually she'll grow to trust herself and her friends. The fear will always be there, but hope will grow and so will her belief in her friends and herself.

In the timeless words of the ancients:

It's dangerous to go alone.

 
[] We're your friends, and no matter what we'll stick beside you.
A whole lot of really good arguments for all of them, but this is the one that seems like it'll do the most good. Maybe. Really close race between this and the stronger one, with the rest not far behind.

EDIT: Forgot about the vote-lock, sorry about that!
 
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[X] You can get through this, you're so much stronger than you think you are.
[X] We're your friends, and no matter what we'll stick beside you.
A whole lot of really good arguments for all of them, but this is the one that seems like it'll do the most good. Maybe. Really close race between this and the stronger one, with the rest not far behind.
Voting has been locked until 3 PM today so that we can all talk about the choices we can vote for. There is no write in allowed.
 
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