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Winter is Coming: House Stark Quest

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Captain Hunt said:
Let's get this over with.
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Yeah.

[X] Plan CM 1.0
Adhoc vote count started by godofsmallthings on Jul 19, 2017 at 8:19 AM, finished with 347 posts and 54 votes.
  • 72
    [X] Plan CM 1.0
    [X] Plan spudman
    -[X] Jaime will be exchanged for Ned, Sansa and any of his men still imprisoned by Lannisters. Robert's bastards and any family will have safe passage out of the city along with Ned's party. The other noble hostages stay with the army as 'insurance'. Tyrion and Kevan's sons' release can be negotiated if Cersei makes a counter-offer.
    -[X] The North and Riverlands will also receive fair compensation directly from Casterly Rock's coffers for the damage caused and men lost.
    -[X] You will also be given back Ice, that book 'proving' Cersei's incest and Littlefinger's head right the hell now.
    -[X] The Northern host will not march on King's Landing.
    -[X] Hostage exchange. Myrcella for an equal hostage (to be determined).
    [X] Plan Neutrality
    -[X] Ned, Sansa, Ice and any still living men of our household are exchanged for Jaime and Kevan's sons.
    -[X] Robb's army will withdraw to the Riverlands, thus giving the Lannisters a chance to deal with the Baratheons.
    -[X] If, after a year, no Lannister attacks happen upon our territories, then Lannister men can be ransomed back. Tywin goes last.
    -[X] Somewhat high but bearable reparations for all the losses.
    -[X] As long as Cersei's line are on the throne, the North and all territories under its rule don't acknowledge the King of the Iron Throne as their sovereign.
    [x] Tell Robb to keep all prisioners alive and treat them honourably. Demand to have Arya and Sansa return to Robb in exchange for Jaime and Tyrion (daughters for sons), Ned can go home in exchange for Tywin (Lords for Lords). Now, I think the Lannisters won't accept this if Ned/Robb just immediately declares for Stannis, so assure them of the North's neutrality and have them publicly forgive any and all perceived ills and treasons against the crown for now. This is a sucession crisis, the North has nothing to do with it.
    [X]Ned negotiates a truce between Stannis and the Lannisters. Stannis takes the throne but his daughter marries Tommen so he will be the next king.
    [X] Plan Nazgul
    -[X] Ned, Sansa and Ice will be returned to Robb unharmed.
    -[X] "Baelish will be arrested and given to me to face trial for conspiring against the crown."
    -[X] "Tywin and Gregor are to be sent to Dorne. You will flee to Essos with your children and a thousand gold dragons, to be taken back from Lannister vaults later. I mean, even if we leave you here in King's Landing, the Stormlander, Reach, and possibly the Dornish army - now that the defeat of the Lannisters is certain - will come to crush you. Tyrion will be released and made Lord of the Westerlands and rest of the PoW will also be released. Jaime can go to the Night's Watch if he confesses to fathering your kids, which will automatically remove them from any line of succession."
    -[X]When she asks how she can trust us: "Need I remind you that I am a man of my word, and also don't want your children to suffer for your sins."
    -[X]Add whatever monetary/land/mining deals are appropriate for repaying the damage their pillaging cost, and then a fuckton more, to be paid to the Riverlanders and the Starks
    [X] An escort for Ned, Sansa, any of our surviving household (if still alive), and Barristan, along with whatever personal items of ours we want (from Ice to Sansa's dresses, for all I care). We also want Baelish and Varys in chains with us.
    -[X] Weregild for any of our household killed by the Lannisters.
    -[X] In exchange, we give them back Kevan's sons and Jaime, and withdraw our army to the Riverlands.
    -[X] Exchange of prisoners to take place halfway between our army and King's Landing, with Robb bringing as large an escort as he wants.
    -[X] If they want Tywin, Tyrion, any of the others, etc. that is to be agreed upon with further negotiations once we're back with our army.
    -[X] We won't execute any of the hostages who haven't committed obvious crimes until further negotiation (so we can't execute Tyrion, for example, but we can execute Gregor).
    [X] Plan Neutrality 1.1
    -[X] Ned, Sansa, Ice and any still living men of our household are exchanged for Jaime and Kevan's sons.
    -[X] Robb's army will withdraw to the Riverlands, thus giving the Lannisters a chance to deal with the Baratheons.
    -[X] If, after a year, no Lannister attacks happen upon our territories, then Tywin and Tyrion can be ransomed back. The various other nobility can be ransomed back immediately. -[X] High reparations from the Westerlands and the Iron Throne.
    -[X] If, after a year, no Lannister attacks happen upon our territories, then Lannister men can be ransomed back. Tywin goes last.
    -[X] As long as Cersei's line are on the throne, the North and all territories under its rule don't acknowledge the King of the Iron Throne as their sovereign.
    -[X] Exchange of prisoners to take place halfway between our army and King's Landing, with Robb bringing as large an escort as he wants.
    -[X] If they want Tywin, Tyrion, any of the others, etc. that is to be agreed upon with further negotiations once we're back with our army.
    -[X] We won't execute any of the hostages who haven't committed obvious crimes until further negotiation (so we can't execute Tyrion, for example, but we can execute Gregor).
    [X]Plan Hand of the King
    [X] Plan NN
    [X] Plan: Negotiate
    -[X] Opening offer
    --[X] The Lannisters will surrender the throne to Stannis Baratheon and King's Landing to the Northern Army.
    ---[X] The Northern Army will refrain from sacking the city or invading the Westerlands.
    --[X] Cersei will join a convent (or whatever the equivalent is).
    --[X] The children will become wards of other Lords.
    --[X] Gregor Clegane will be executed for his crimes.
    --[X] Tywin will be offered the Black.
    --[X] Jaime will be offered the Black.
    --[X] Tyrian will abdicate his right to Casterly Rock and be ransomed. The gold going to the Riverlands to compensate them.
    --[X] All other nobles will be ransomed. The gold going to the Riverlands in compensation.
    -[X] Second offers (depending on what is not accepted).
    --[X] If they won't surrender the city. Ned, his family, his retinue (Rob's bastards we know about included) and their possessions (Ice, ect.) will be granted safe passage to Northern lines.
    --[X] Cersei will go into exile.
    --[X] Tommen will go into exile (w/ Cersei).
    --[X] Myrcella will go into exile (w/ Cersei).
    --[X] Joffrey will go into exile (w/ Cersei).
    --[X] Jaime will go into exile (w/ Cersei).
    --[X] Tyrion does not have to abdicate Casterly Rock.
    --[X] Kevan Lannister's sons are released without ransom.
    [X] Plan spudman
    -[X] Jaime will be exchanged for Ned, Sansa, Arya (once found) and any of his men still imprisoned by Lannisters. Robert's bastards and any family will have safe passage along with Ned's party. The other noble hostages stay with the army as 'insurance'. Tyrion and Kevan's sons' release can be negotiated if Cersei makes a counter-offer.
    -[X] Safe passage out of King's Landing for Ser Barristan (assuming he hasn't left already), regardless of where he goes.
    -[X] The North and Riverlands will also receive fair compensation directly from Casterly Rock's coffers for the damage caused and men lost.
    -[X] You will also be given back Ice, that book 'proving' Cersei's incest and Littlefinger's head right the hell now.
    -[X] The Northern host will not march on King's Landing (for a number of months to be determined).
    -[X] Myrcella as a hostage.
    [x] Plan WS
    - [x] We are winning - attack the westerlands and finish the threat once and for all. Avoid the bait that is negotiation!
    [X] You will all surrender yourselves unconditionally to the One True King of Westeros, Stannis of House Baratheon, First of His Name. In return, I will ask him to be merciful (huhuhuhu).
    [X] Plan spudman
    -[X] Jaime will be exchanged for Ned, Sansa, Arya (once found) and any of his men still imprisoned by Lannisters. Robert's bastards and any family will have safe passage along with Ned's party. The other noble hostages stay with the army as 'insurance'. Tyrion and Kevan's sons' release can be negotiated if Cersei makes a counter-offer.
    -[X] Safe passage out of King's Landing for Ser Barristan (assuming he hasn't left already), regardless of where he goes.
    -[X] The North and Riverlands will also receive fair compensation directly from Casterly Rock's coffers for the damage caused and men lost.
    -[X] You will also be given back Ice, that book 'proving' Cersei's incest and Littlefinger's head right the hell now.
    -[X] The Northern host will not march on King's Landing (for a number of months to be determined).
    -[X] Myrcella as a hostage. An exchange of hostages could be on the table.
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@Charcolt

Will we have to worry about what Cersei might do to Ser Barristan if we don't negotiate for his safe passage? Or has he already left King's Landing?

Anyway, it seems to me that with the hostage issue clarified, plan spudman and plan CM are essentially identical, except for two things plan spudman does which plan CM does not:
  • Gets Robert's bastards out of King's Landing
  • Possibly gets Myrcella as a hostage
I'm honestly undecided if I want those things or not. Both seem narratively interesting, but arguably neither is in House Stark's best interest, at least IMHO.

It would probably be IC for Ned to want them anyway though. At least saving the bastards is very much the right thing to do and while we don't really need Myrcella as a hostage, Ned has spent enough time in Lannister dungeons to consider them a bigger threat than their current strategical position warrants.
 
McLuvin said:
I've just read through the arguments.
The Main ones are.
- Possibly Free Hostage! Although it's listed as an exchange.
- Save Myrcella! Despite the fact it is more trouble than it's worth and will cause more long term issues.
- Screw Sansa! Some want to throw Sansa out of the way and exchange her for a better character.
- Keeping the Lannisters Word! Which makes little sense as we will still have Tywin and several other Lords such as Leo Lefford and Lord Brax for insurance and we can counter their moves via Robbs army and a garrison and Harrenhall
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Ugh. I removed the mention of exchange for Myrcella. Though Cersei may ask for one of ours in exchange for her. That would be part of the haggling if there is any, I suppose.

Just so we're clear. I wouldn't be surprised if we get Myrcella for free because Cersei wants her to be safe. And I never had any intention of leaving Sansa in King's Landing.

If it comes down to hostage exchange we could offer one of the hostages we already have. That works for me. A Westerland lord for the Queen's daughter (bastard she may be) isn't a bad deal necessarily. It means

So how about it @Driven by Apathy , @Edkose .




We may get Myrcella for free, and I won't support giving over a Stark or any Northerner if it comes to that. But instead leave it to a hostage exchange roll (if we agree to counter offer) for one of the other hostages.



Edit: Added a bit to the Myrcella part.

Another hostage may be exchanged for her if Cersei counter offers. Not Tywin or Gregor.

Even then, it's a point of a deal that we can drop during the haggling stage if we don't like it.

I think that should address just about everyone's concerns?
 
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Driven by Apathy said:
@Charcolt

Will we have to worry about what Cersei might do to Ser Barristan if we don't negotiate for his safe passage? Or has he already left King's Landing?

Anyway, it seems to me that with the hostage issue clarified, plan spudman and plan CM are essentially identical, except for two things plan spudman does which plan CM does not:
  • Gets Robert's bastards out of King's Landing
  • Possibly gets Myrcella as a hostage
I'm honestly undecided if I want those things or not. Both seem narratively interesting, but arguably neither is in House Stark's best interest, at least IMHO.

It would probably be IC for Ned to want them anyway though. At least saving the bastards is very much the right thing to do and while we don't really need Myrcella as a hostage, Ned has spent enough time in Lannister dungeons to consider them a bigger threat than their current strategical position warrants.
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Ser Barristan Selmy has already left the city. He knew that the Starks were no longer in imminent danger, and at the time nobody thought/dared to stop him.

Ned will default to certain things even if they aren't mentioned directly in a plan, because he's a bit more set in his ways than Robb. That includes protecting Robert's children.
 
spudman said:
I think that should address just about everyone's concerns
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Actually it doesn't address my concern about the future problems having Myrcella could cause, Stannis and Renly aren't going to just let her go, and keeping her could hurt us quite a bit, furthermore hiding her or letting her slip away would cause massive damage to our relations with the king just when winter is rolling in alongside a Horde of tens of thousands of Wildlings and a possible Ironborm invasion. Not to mention any possible food shortages for the really long winter coming will require us to go south for aid, which will cause some issues as they might make sure the price of grain is jacked up or something.

Edit: never mind, you won
 
Charcolt said:
Ser Barristan Selmy has already left the city. He knew that the Starks were no longer in imminent danger, and at the time nobody thought/dared to stop him.

Ned will default to certain things even if they aren't mentioned directly in a plan, because he's a bit more set in his ways than Robb. That includes protecting Robert's children.
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Oh. Nevermind that part then.

Jeez...would have been nice to get confirmation on that before regarding the bastards.

Anyway...my plan still has the difference of Myrcella. Possibly for free. Possibly for the low low cost of one of the many lordlings we already have (and we don't have to take that part of the deal if we don't like it).

Besides keeping a genuinely nice Lannister safe...Cersei cares more about her children than anyone (other than herself). That adds some value to her as a hostage even if she is a bastard.
 
McLuvin said:
I've just read through the arguments.
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I do hate spaghetti posting, so I'm gonna address everything at the bottom.

The Main ones are.
- Possibly Free Hostage! Although it's listed as an exchange.
- Save Myrcella! Despite the fact it is more trouble than it's worth and will cause more long term issues.
- Screw Sansa! Some want to throw Sansa out of the way and exchange her for a better character.
- Keeping the Lannisters Word! Which makes little sense as we will still have Tywin and several other Lords such as Leo Lefford and Lord Brax for insurance and we can counter their moves via Robbs army and a garrison and Harrenhall
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It's already been clarified by the GM that hostage exchange would involve exchanging Tyrion, Kevan's sons, and/or the lesser Lannister nobility Robb captured, not leaving Stark people in Cersei's clutches.

Do recall that, given the publicly questioned legitimacy of Cersei's children, and the fact that Myrcella's a girl and so behind the boys in the line of succession anyway, getting her is pretty much just insurance against the Lannisters; she's not much of a threat to the Baratheon's legitimacy. And as has been mentioned, Ned can always "disappear" her rather than give her up; this is a medieval society, it's not as if it's easy to track her and prove Ned the liar if he does send her to Essos in secret.

Sansa's not getting ditched, so those people have no leg to stand on anyway.

The Lannisters don't really have the option of not keeping their word, yes, but having Myrcella isn't to make sure they do the deal, it's to make sure that they don't decide to be shits in a couple years, after this whole debacle's ended and they've had some time to recover and nurse their grudges.

(Again, I'm not actually voting for spudman's plan, just clarifying that it's not as bad as people seem to be portraying it as.)
 
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McLuvin said:
Actually it doesn't address my concern about the future problems having Myrcella could cause, Stannis and Renly aren't going to just let her go, and keeping her could hurt us quite a bit, furthermore hiding her or letting her slip away would cause massive damage to our relations with the king just when winter is rolling in alongside a Horde of tens of thousands of Wildlings and a possible Ironborm invasion. Not to mention any possible food shortages for the really long winter coming will require us to go south for aid, which will cause some issues as they might make sure the price of grain is jacked up or something.

Edit: never mind, you won
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We wouldn't need to hide her.

If the Baratheons win, Myrcella is a proven bastard and has no claim on the Throne anyway. Sure, they may well kill any Lannisters they can get their hands on in the heat of the moment during the fighting and immediate aftermath, but Myrcella wouldn't be a threat in the aftermath or long term.

If they get THAT upset that she's still alive and are willing to go to war or take other drastic steps, which I highly doubt...the Faith could an option. But tackle that problem IF it comes. And I consider it a big if.

Myrcella is valuable so long as Cersei has any influence in King's Landing and/or Casterly Rock. If Tyrion is ransomed and released he also cares about her well being. Kevan might...*shrug*

I haven't won yet. Still need some votes to go my way or change back.

@godofsmallthings , @Edkose @Captain Hunt Since a lot of the concerns regarding Myrcella have been addressed, how about it? Try for another free hostage...or haggle to exchange her for a lordling (which we can just drop during the haggling stage if we don't like that part).
 
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We could offer to take Myrcella out of harms way. We could even dye her hair and pretend she's Arya so that the Baratheons don't know we have her. It's up to Cersei whether she accepts or not either way, but maybe phrasing it this way might make her more receptive to the plan?
 
Actually, you know, spudman's plan is pretty good. I'm not opposed to it or Crimson Moon's plan winning, but I think getting Myrcella would be a good measure for buying some leverage against Cersei. Worst thing that happens is we trade one or two of Kevan's sons for her, and since he'd be the one leading Lannister forces against Robb, his good will would be useful in that case anyway.

[X] Plan Spudman
 
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@Charcolt Where would Myrcella be in the line of succession had she not been a bastard actually? Behind her brothers or behind Stannis and Renly? Because after the Dance, women in line for the Iron Throne might have been placed behind all men in line, but that was for the Targs so....

Or is the law too muddled to offer a precise answer to this?
 
NúmenoreanNazgûl said:
We could offer to take Myrcella out of harms way. We could even dye her hair and pretend she's Arya so that the Baratheons don't know we have her. It's up to Cersei whether she accepts or not either way, but maybe phrasing it this way might make her more receptive to the plan?
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*sigh* With all the OOC argument for it I think that kind of goes without saying.

But fuck it. I'll add a bit about her being out of harm's way. I don't think those that voted for my plan will care either way, but if it makes you feel better about it.

Here.

[X] Plan spudman
-[X] Jaime will be exchanged for Ned, Sansa, Arya (once found) and any of his men still imprisoned by Lannisters. Robert's bastards and any family will have safe passage along with Ned's party. The other noble hostages stay with the army as 'insurance'. Tyrion or Kevan's sons' release can be negotiated if Cersei makes a counter-offer.
-[X] The North and Riverlands will also receive fair compensation directly from Casterly Rock's coffers for the damage caused and men lost.
-[X] You will also be given back Ice, that book 'proving' Cersei's incest and Littlefinger's head right the hell now.
-[X] The Northern host will not march on King's Landing (for a number of months to be determined).
-[X] Myrcella as a hostage. It also gets her out of harm's way. Another hostage may be exchanged for her if Cersei counter offers. Not Tywin or Gregor.
 
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Random Member said:
@Charcolt Were would Myrcella be in the line of succession had she not been a bastard actually? Behind her brothers or behind Stannis and Renly? Because after the Dance, women in line for the Iron Throne might have been placed behind all men in line, but that was for the Targs so....

Or is the law too muddled to offer a precise answer to this?
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I imagine that it'd work out the same way the Targs would have done it, since the legitimacy of Robert's claim to the throne was due to his grandmother being a Targ. But she probably would have been expected to marry into another family for political purposes before pressing a claim for the throne herself, so she probably wouldn't end up in the running in the first place, outside very unusual circumstances.
 
You know...the part of both my and CM's plans that I think Cersei is more likely to haggle on is actually the reparations. That's probably expensive as hell and the Lannisters will need every ounce of gold they can hang onto to fight against the Baratheons.
 
Random Member said:
@Charcolt Where would Myrcella be in the line of succession had she not been a bastard actually? Behind her brothers or behind Stannis and Renly? Because after the Dance, women in line for the Iron Throne might have been placed behind all men in line, but that was for the Targs so....

Or is the law too muddled to offer a precise answer to this?
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Succession laws can be more flexible in times of chaos. Myrcella was considered Tommen's heir in the books. While it's likely Cersei would change the succession laws to place her daughter before an uncle or other relation, there's no mention of her doing so which suggests the Baratheons continued the practice of Agnatic-Cognatic Primogeniture they used prior to taking the throne and threw out the old Targaryen tradition (very in character for Robert and Cersei both I'd say).

That said, even a legitimate Myrcella would have a tough time becoming (and staying) queen without an army close by or a very stable kingdom. Women rulers don't have it easy.
 
Charcolt said:
There are zero circumstances in which Ned would leave Sansa behind. I'd veto any plan which I felt suggested it. None that are winning have.

Any hostage exchange rolls would relate to releasing the hostages House Stark has taken, not to surrendering one of their own.
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Thank god. Spudman was making me really worried there.
 
Duesal said:
Thank god. Spudman was making me really worried there.
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You're a bit behind in the discussion...if getting Myrcella requires a hostage (it may not! we may get her for free if Cersei thinks she's safer with honorable to a fault Ned Stark than in King's Landing), it'll be giving one of the hostages we already have. Even then it would be part of the haggling. So not set in stone.
 
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spudman said:
You know...the part of both my and CM's plans that I think Cersei is more likely to haggle on is actually the reparations. That's probably expensive as hell and the Lannisters will need every ounce of gold they can hang onto to fight against the Baratheons.
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Possibly. But I suspect Cersei doesn't really understand that even House Lannister's wealth is limited. She'll consider any demand for monetary reparations a trifling issue to be solved by throwing some of her House's supposedly infinite reserve of gold at it.

It's not like Tywin's around to inform her that the mines have run dry (if they even have - is this show or book canon?). Kevan probably knows, but it doesn't seem like he'll be directly involved in the negotiations. Hopefully by the time he informs her, the deal will have been made... and Myrcella will be in Stark hands, giving Cersei a powerful incentive to keep to the terms agreed. And House Stark would never know that the Lannister can barely afford to pay.

Heh. That would be a rather amusing way for things to work out.
 
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spudman said:
You're a bit behind in the discussion...if getting Myrcella requires a hostage (it may not! we may get her for free if Cersei thinks she's safer with honorable to a fault Ned Stark than in King's Landing), it'll be giving one of the hostages we already have. Even then it would be part of the haggling. So not set in stone.
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Or it could blow up in our face because Cersei refuses to part with Myrcella? You're acting like this has no risks attached and that if the roll to get Myrcella fails everything will be completely fine with the rest of the negotiations.
 
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