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Winter is Coming: House Stark Quest

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Well, this is a pickle. I don't want to go the canon route, but the Whispering Wood and the Battle of the Camps was only a success because Tywin Lannister's scouts told him we were coming to meet him at the Ruby Ford.
I think the issue with Robb's strategy in canon was that there were no clear goals- there was no real strategy. He was trying to knock the Lannisters out of the war, but the fact was, he never landed a decisive blow, and indeed, after the start, he couldn't. Instead, he got bogged down by events and mission creep. So, here's my suggestion:
Riverrun can hold without us for a while. Jaime is running around fighting hit and run raids. Riverrun is practically impregnable, with enough men to hold it and probably enough supplies. The way to win the war is to defeat Tywin Lannister (ideally capturing him) and force him to come to terms. So:

[X] Plan Gamble All To Win All:
-[X] Send Roose Bolton in command of the infantry and one tenth of the horse south along the eastern back of the Green Fork as per canon. Ask him to try and ensure a surprise attack as much as possible (accomplished in canon by marching all night and attacking immediately at dawn, when much of the Lannister forces were still sleeping).
-[X] Take the rest of the cavalry over the Twins. Instead of heading for Riverrun, though, head south, along the western bank of the Green Fork. As per canon, have a thick net of outriders and scouts, and order them to kill all Lannister scouts. Ride hard, and lie in wait in Tywin's rear. When the battle reaches its height, charge the rear - Tywin commanded the reserve in canon. Take him from the rear, capture him, then retreat, or if the assault is successful, keep attacking, serving as the hammer to Roose's anvil. Even if we don't completely destroy Tywin's army, it should still end up encamped on the Ruby Ford, trapped between two northern forces, and unable to attack either one lest the other take it the back. If we have Tywin captured, we have the most valuable hostage. If we don't, we can still come to terms with him - he's probably no happier about Joffrey's idiocy either.
 
Generally, Robb's plan to attack the Lannister army besieging Riverrun is sound. However, I don't think it's necessary to sacrifice a third of the North's infantry in order to trick Tywin into believing that he's engaging the entire Northern host.
So, instead of sending off all our infantry to fight without proper cavalry support, how about we just send them down there with orders not to engage the Lannister forces. They'll just harass the Lannisters and raid their supply lines and camps and draw back if the Lannisters try to engage in proper battle. Of course, I'm not sure how effective this will be with what's basically an infantry army but the important part is to avoid a pitched battle against the Lannisters, which resulted in 5000 casualties in canon.

Meneldur said:
-[X] Take the rest of the cavalry over the Twins. Instead of heading for Riverrun, though, head south, along the western bank of the Green Fork. As per canon, have a thick net of outriders and scouts, and order them to kill all Lannister scouts. Ride hard, and lie in wait in Tywin's rear. When the battle reaches its height, charge the rear - Tywin commanded the reserve in canon. Take him from the rear, capture him, then retreat, or if the assault is successful, keep attacking, serving as the hammer to Roose's anvil. Even if we don't completely destroy Tywin's army, it should still end up encamped on the Ruby Ford, trapped between two northern forces, and unable to attack either one lest the other take it the back. If we have Tywin captured, we have the most valuable hostage. If we don't, we can still come to terms with him - he's probably no happier about Joffrey's idiocy either.
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How will we cross the Green Fork? The Ruby Ford is on the Trident and there's no other crossing nearby. In fact, the only crossing along the entire Green Fork is at the Twins.


@Charcolt, do we have any knowledge of our bannermen's ability to command a host? I'd like to avoid putting Bolton in charge if there's someone else competent. Maybe Maege Mormont or Galbart Glover?
 
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Versharl said:
Generally, Robb's plan to attack the Lannister army besieging Riverrun is sound. However, I don't think it's necessary to sacrifice a third of the North's infantry in order to trick Tywin into believing that he's engaging the entire Northern host.
So, instead of sending off all our infantry to fight without proper cavalry support, how about we just send them down there with orders not to engage the Lannister forces. They'll just harass the Lannisters and raid their supply lines and camps and draw back if the Lannisters try to engage in proper battle. Of course, I'm not sure how effective this will be with what's basically an infantry army but the important part is to avoid a pitched battle against the Lannisters, which resulted in 5000 casualties in canon.


@Charcolt, do we have any knowledge of our bannermen's ability to command a host? I'd like to avoid putting Bolton in charge if there's someone else competent. Maybe Maege Mormont or Galbart Glover?
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The books and the wiki are fair game for researching any bannerman's potential experience and talents.

Northern houses like the Mormonts and Umbers tend to be the most experienced due to wildling raiders, but that's not exactly the same as fighting an army of knights and levies. Pretty much everyone has veterans of the last war, though some of them have died or taken the black (like Jeor Mormont).
 
[X] Plan Amnon
-[X] Appoint Robett Glover commander of the foot.
--[X] Instruct him to pretend to lay siege to the Twins.
---[X] When Tywin is a day and a half from the Twins, cross the Twins.
-[X] Robb continues to the Whispering Woods/Battle of the Camps as canon.

Literally nothing changes except that now the Northern foot is unharmed and links up with Robb's host at Riverrun some days later. No loss on the Green Fork, no thousands of Northern casualties, Tywin is in the exact same place as in canon, and had a few hundred mouths more to feed (the few hundred Westermen who died on the Green Fork).

There is no way we can make the turn around the Green Fork in time for the battle, there is no way we can get the drop on Tywin when it took a vary impatiant Jamie to fall for the Whispering Woods, and there is no way we can coordinate an attack with another host.

On the other hand, we know Tywin is underestimating the potential of the Freys. In AGOT he actually hears that the Freys have joined forces with Robb's host a day before the Battle of the Green Fork, but never bothers to send word to Jaime that the main base assumption of the campaign is false, and that enemy forces can arrive from the north-east. Tywin thinks us a boy, let us show him a frustrated boy who flails around in impotent rage and tries to break the Twins because they remain neutral - exactly as Tywin predicts. When he arrives and finds out he is on the wrong side of the river, he has no real option but to turn back.

With superiority of force in the Riverlands we can force Tywin to remain in Harrenhal or risk open battle with our superior force. With a decent feint we could be well on our way to King's Landing before he could react, and take the lightly defended city.
 
[X] Plan Amnon

Though i do think we should be weary of plans like this, Rolls won't always be in our favor. Can we ask for alliances out of canon?

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I'm not sure we want Roose running about unsupervised, tbh. Canonically he used the Green Fork to thin the herd a little while boosting his own profile, and in the process let the Lannisters fall back in better order than they necessarily might've. If we give him a fully independent command like in canon he might very well pull the same stunt.

That being said, going after Tywin's not the worst idea. Risky, but that's why they pay us the big bucks, right?
 
People, there's no crossing on the Green Fork that Robb can use the get from the western to the eastern bank of the Green Fork. The only crossing on the Green Fork is at the Twins. The plan is literally impossible to implement. Even if there was a crossing(again, there isn't one), Tywin would have to be a fool not to guard it.
 
Mal-3 said:
I'm not sure we want Roose running about unsupervised, tbh. Canonically he used the Green Fork to thin the herd a little while boosting his own profile, and in the process let the Lannisters fall back in better order than they necessarily might've. If we give him a fully independent command like in canon he might very well pull the same stunt.
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Canonically, Roose did exactly what Robb ordered, and was lucky that Tywin was an idiot. Tywin makes rapid pace, and still can't reach the Inn at the Crossroads before a rider had arrived from Riverrun, and told him about the battle that took place days and days ago. I don't care how good of a pace Tywin thought he could make, he was never going to reach Jamie in time. But he still tried, and in doing so it was Tywin who gave up givng pursuit of the fleeing Northmen, thus giving Roose the chance to regroup near the Twins. Had Tywin accepted that his golden boy was on his own, he would have destroyed the Northern foot, instead of "only" a third of it.

Mal-3 said:
That being said, going after Tywin's not the worst idea. Risky, but that's why they pay us the big bucks, right?
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[X] Plan Amnon

Plan Gamble All To Win All is risking too much on a plan with too many points of failure. We are better off minimizing losses rather than gambling on a do-or-die battle.

We have other enemies than the Lannisters, and even killing or capturing Tywin won't necessarily knock the Lannisters out of the war.
 
[X] Plan Avoid fighting Tywin
-[X] Send the entire Northern infantry and a 1/10 of the cavalry down the Kingsroad to occupy Tywin's army.
--[X] Place Maege Mormont in charge of this army with Galbart Glover as her second in command.
--[X] Attempt to avoid engaging Tywin's army in a pitched battle where our lack of cavalry will favour the Lannisters. Instead, the main army should send out detachments to launch nighttime attacks, raids against supply caravans or other skirmising actions. Mormont and Glover are given a significant degree of flexibility in terms of order to account for changing circumstances or stratagems that they or their subordinates have devised.
--[X] If fighting a pitched battle is unavoidable, attempt to engage on favourable terrain that minimizes the advantages of the Lannnisters, especially their cavalry. Stakes, pits and other traps while engaging in wooded, hilly or swampy terrain should do the trick.
-[X] Meanwhile Robb will lead the remaining forces to the Whispering Woods and Riverrun per canon while Bolton assumes the tasks of Mormont.

So, Robb's idea to surprise Jaime's host is basically sound. I'm just trying to avoid the 5000 casualties that Bolton suffered in canon against Tywin by placing Maege Mormont in charge and trying to avoid a pitched battle. I'm more than open to suggestions on how to improve this plan.
 
Amnon said:
---[X] When Tywin is a day and a half from the Twins, cross the Twins.
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Why would Tywin advance to the Twins? He was encamped at the Ruby Ford for a reason - because it was a commanding place from where he could raid the Riverlands and control the Northern approach to King's Landing. What reason has he to turn North? All this does is leave a strong force at out backs that can wheel and march on Riverrun once he realizes we're not coming
Versharl said:
People, there's no crossing on the Green Fork that Robb can use the get from the western to the eastern bank of the Green Fork. The only crossing on the Green Fork is at the Twins. The plan is literally impossible to implement. Even if there was a crossing (again, there isn't one), Tywin would have to be a fool not to guard it.
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I may simply be reading the map wrong, but I think you're misunderstanding me. We're not crossing the Green Fork - indeed you cannot cross the Green Fork north of the Ruby Ford until the Twins.We're proceeding south to the west of it. We either sweep around the headwaters of the Blue Fork and cross the Red Fork at one of the many fords south of Riverrun which the Blackfish would know of, or cross the Blue Fork (say at Fairmarket or any other ford) and then crossing the Red Fork to get at Tywin's rear.

As for avoiding casualties, those were because Roose had to retreat, and casualties happen when you retreat. In canon they lucked out, because Roose kept mostly tight control over the retreat, and Tywin chose not to pursue out of caution. Here, the casualties would be much less, as Roose won't need to retreat. Even if we lose 5,000 men, though, it'll be worth it for the chance to kill/capture Tywin and destroy a 20,000 strong army.
 
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Meneldur said:
Why would Tywin advance to the Twins? He was encamped at the Ruby Ford for a reason - because it was a commanding place from where he could raid the Riverlands and control the Northern approach to King's Landing. What reason has he to turn North? All this does is leave a strong force at out backs that can wheel and march on Riverrun once he realizes we're not coming
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1. Tywin was camped at the Inn at the Crossroads, north of the Ruby Ford.
2. Tywin was marching north because when Tyrion arrives, Robb was parked at Moat Cailin.
3. When Kevan directly asks why not wait for Robb in the forified camp, Tywin replies:

"We are well situated here," Ser Kevan pointed out. "Close to the ford and ringed by pits and spikes. If they are coming south, I say let them come, and break themselves against us."
"The boy may hang back or lose his courage when he sees our numbers," Lord Tywin replied. "The sooner the Starks are broken, the sooner I shall be free to deal with Stannis Baratheon. Tell the drummers to beat assembly, and send word to Jaime that I am marching against Robb Stark."
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Tywin was raiding the Riverlands later, and was only guarding King's Landing against the Northmen becuase he failed to destroy Robb quickly.
 
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Meneldur said:
I may simply be reading the map wrong, but I think you're misunderstanding me. We're not crossing the Green Fork - indeed you cannot cross the Green Fork north of the Ruby Ford until the Twins.We're proceeding south to the west of it. We either sweep around the headwaters of the Blue Fork and cross the Red Fork at one of the many fords south of Riverrun which the Blackfish would know of, or cross the Blue Fork (say at Fairmarket or any other ford) and then crossing the Red Fork to get at Tywin's rear.
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That's well and all though I sincerely doubt we could get ther undetected but Tywin's rear isn't on the southside of the Red Fork or the Trident. He has crossed the Trident and guards the Ruby Ford by occupying the north side. How do you expect to catch him unawares, much less attack him from behind in the middle of a battle on the opposite side of the river? A river that he undoubtedly guards to avoid precisely such an attack.
 
[X] Plan Amnon

I think we should take out Jamie's army at Riverrun and link up with some Riverlords and their troops (and Edmure) before going after Tywin.

Edit: Also, as others have said, Tywin's in a good defensive position.
 
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[X] Plan Amnon

This seems like the safest bet. I don't think that we can reliably outmaneuver and crush Tywin, but it's a sure thing that we'll be able to crush Jaime's host. I'll go for the sure thing and even if events at the Twins don't go exactly as planned, it's likely we'll come out ahead and leave Tywin overextended. Assuming we left a garrison at Moat Cailin, he'll have no choice but march back south again.
 
[X] Plan Amnon

Ooh, a Charcolt quest! And I'm actually only one vote past the beginning, this is a good day.

Though one thing I've got to note:
Charcolt said:
Let's say that Craster's incest babies weren't the healthiest stock for a new generation of ice demons. They're with the Great Other now.
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So incest basically saved Westeros. TMW when Targs weren't completely wrong they were just right in the wrong way.:rofl:
 
Going for Tywin still makes a lot of sense to me, but if making a direct assault is too risky then something a little more tricksy is called for, so...

EDIT: Changing vote to reflect improved sneakiness.
 
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[X] The Green Fork and the Whispering Wood except with Robert Glover in command of the foot
Rob 's plan in the book was brilliant just with poor judgment on the commanders
 
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