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City Building in Middle-Earth

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Spacegnom said:
Let me break it down for you:
We build a Quarry then at the beginning of next year we get +2 Stone. Yes? So, if we build a Farm then at the beginning of next year our Population will have gained growth from this production building.
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I'm sorry but no, this is not how it works.

The way it works is the way I outlined it above, and the way @Sayle outlined it. If you build a production building for anything, the income for that building only comes in in the following year. The "Population" line in my breakdown describes the situation at the end of its respective year, not the start.

This is a system I know my way around fairly well; admittedly mostly by sheer dint of trial and error. :lol

uju32 said:
:jackiechan:
Can we get a ruling?
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Yeah the thing with the Small Military District needing Population, then the Living Quarters being a separate thing, got slightly confusing. Living Quarters weren't really a thing back when we could first build the Small Military District, so I always viewed the first one as essentially being Living Quarters.

But sure, let's get an explicit ruling.
 
PLAN SNOWBALL v3
GENERAL
[X] Ransom the Ring of Barahir (-15 Gold, -10 Metal)
[X] Cavalry: These horsemen are a short, sharp shock, and are willing to take casualties if it means dealing a decisive blow.
[X] Equipment Doctrine: Well Equipped (-2 Metal): +1 Attack/Defense
[X] Make effort to practice forestry management, and to replant trees where possible.
[X]Attempt to reconstitute a service of couriers/messengers to carry the Chieftain's messages and otherwise keep the cities connected.
[X]Dispatch party to scout Caras Nurnelen ruins

DIPLOMACY
[X]Rotate a section of the military to Bree regularly to show the flag and to help sweep the roads between Bree and Ost.
[X]Trade Hardwood to Mithlond for five years, as a favor to a treasured ally.
[X]Request advice from Mithlond on forestry management.
[X]And from Imladris on skulking patrolling through the wilderness; we're going to have to rebuild instituional knowledge lost with the fall of Fornost.
[X]Send emissaries to the Shire; it's right on the road to Bree, so no point neglecting it, and the Shire-hobbits did swear allegiance to the kings of Arnor. Besides, the halflings DID send a company of archers to the Battle of Fornost.

TRADE CONTRACT
[X] Import 2 Food (Market Price): -4 gold/turn
[X] Import 2 Stone (Market Price): -6 gold/turn
[X] Export 1 Hardwood (Market Price+1) [Mithlond]: +6 gold/turn
-4 gold/turn

ACTION
YEAR 1
[X] Ciralya (Merchant Ship) (-10 Gold, -10 Wood) [Req. 1 Shipbuilding]
[X] Fishing (-3 Gold, -2 Wood, +3 Food)<-[Unemployed unit of Population goes here]

YEAR 2
----[X] Armorers (-10 Gold, Increase Quality Available) [Req. Iron/Steel]
[X] Tame the Baranduin (-10 Gold, -20 Stone)

YEAR 3 [+1 POP!]
----[X] Drill Square (-10 Gold, Better Units)
[X] Logging Camp (-3 Gold, +3 Wood)[New Pop here]

YEAR 4
[X] Residential District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, +2 Housing)
[X] Mercantile District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, +2 Taxes)
--[X] Smithing Quarter (-5 Gold, -2 Taxes, 2 Iron -> 2 Steel Conversion)

YEAR 5[+1 POP!]
[X] Ciralya (Merchant Ship) (-10 Gold, -10 Wood) [Req. 1 Shipbuilding]
[X] Quarry (-3 Gold, +2 Stone) [New Pop here]
 
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Admiral Skippy said:
I'm sorry but no, this is not how it works.

The way it works is the way I outlined it above, and the way @Sayle outlined it. If you build a production building for anything, the income for that building only comes in in the following year. The "Population" line in my breakdown describes the situation at the end of its respective year, not the start.

This is a system I know my way around fairly well; admittedly mostly by sheer dint of trial and error. :lol
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Sorry it appears you were right, but here I found proof that building fishing boats boost Food production immediately:
Sayle said:
With the spring coming round and food supplies at the breaking point, you have to decide whether to plant fields this year - while fishing would be more immediate and ease the situation rather than waiting until next year,
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Arguably from Turn 2, so :V
Sayle said:
[ ] Plant crops and wait until next year.
--[ ] Renovate City Center (-2 Wood, +1 Prestige, +1 Prosperity).
--[ ] Build Small Residential District (-2 Wood, 2 Housing)

[ ] Build boats and start fishing immediately (Wood: -2)
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The military system works so you need a unit of population to field a military unit, but you only need to upgrade the armory and training grounds, not build new ones. I'm not entirely sure what the current argument is about, really.

Buildings don't produce the turn they are built, universally so. Things were running on a narrative rather than mechanical basis early on, before things smoothed out.
 
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Sayle said:
The military system works so you need a unit of population to field a military unit, but you only need to upgrade the armory and training grounds, not build new ones. I'm not entirely sure what the current argument is about, really.
Buildings don't produce the turn they are built, universally so. Things were running on a narrative rather than mechanical basis early on, before things smoothed out.
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Thank you.
Updated plan.

PLAN SNOWBALL v3
GENERAL
[X] Ransom the Ring of Barahir (-15 Gold, -10 Metal)
[X] Cavalry: These horsemen are a short, sharp shock, and are willing to take casualties if it means dealing a decisive blow.
[X] Equipment Doctrine: Well Equipped (-2 Metal): +1 Attack/Defense
[X] Make effort to practice forestry management, and to replant trees where possible.
[X]Attempt to reconstitute a service of couriers/messengers to carry the Chieftain's messages and otherwise keep the cities connected.
[X]Dispatch party to scout Caras Nurnelen ruins

DIPLOMACY
[X]Rotate a section of the military to Bree regularly to show the flag and to help sweep the roads between Bree and Ost.
[X]Trade Hardwood to Mithlond for five years, as a favor to a treasured ally.
[X]Request advice from Mithlond on forestry management.
[X]And from Imladris on skulking patrolling through the wilderness; we're going to have to rebuild instituional knowledge lost with the fall of Fornost.
[X]Send emissaries to the Shire; it's right on the road to Bree, so no point neglecting it, and the Shire-hobbits did swear allegiance to the kings of Arnor. Besides, the halflings DID send a company of archers to the Battle of Fornost.

TRADE CONTRACT
[X] Import 2 Food (Market Price): -4 gold/turn
[X] Import 2 Stone (Market Price): -6 gold/turn
[X] Export 1 Hardwood (Market Price+1) [Mithlond]: +6 gold/turn
-4 gold/turn

ACTION
YEAR 1
[X] Ciralya (Merchant Ship) (-10 Gold, -10 Wood) [Req. 1 Shipbuilding]
[X] Fishing (-3 Gold, -2 Wood, +3 Food)<-[Unemployed unit of Population goes here]

YEAR 2
----[X] Armorers (-10 Gold, Increase Quality Available) [Req. Iron/Steel]
[X] Tame the Baranduin (-10 Gold, -20 Stone)

YEAR 3 [+1 POP!]
----[X] Drill Square (-10 Gold, Better Units)
[X] Logging Camp (-3 Gold, +3 Wood)[New Pop here]

YEAR 4
[X] Residential District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, +2 Housing)
[X] Mercantile District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, +2 Taxes)
--[X] Smithing Quarter (-5 Gold, -2 Taxes, 2 Iron -> 2 Steel Conversion)

YEAR 5[+1 POP!]
[X] Ciralya (Merchant Ship) (-10 Gold, -10 Wood) [Req. 1 Shipbuilding]
[X] Quarry (-3 Gold, +2 Stone) [New Pop here]

CASHFLOW said:
-89 gold, -26 Stone, -25 Wood,-17 Metal,
+2 Population, +1 Income/turn, +3 Wood/turn, + 2 Merchant ships, +75 gold, + 10 Metal, +20 Stone
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BEGINNING
Income: 19 Gold/turn
Treasury: 35 Gold
Chieftain's Treasury: 15
Stone: 19
Metal: 13
--Iron: 4

END
Income: +22 Gold/turn
Treasury: 21 Gold
Chieftain's Treasury: 15
Stone: 13
Metal: 6
--Iron: 9
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REASON
Replaced Pastures with Fishing, to get +3 Food without weather exposure.
Replaced Docks with Residential Quarters to accommodate the new populations
Replaced Mercantile District with Quarry, as @Spacegnom pointed out it made more fiscal sense
Added a General Action to explore Caras Nurnelen Ruins.


This plan gets you an increase of +2 Population, 2 new Merchant ships, 25% more Wood production, and a vastly more capable military.


VOTE: @uju32, @Speed53066
 
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Five Year Plan: Securing our Foundation

Civic Construction
Year 1
->[X] Assign Unassigned Population (1) to Logging Camp (-3 Gold, +3 Wood)
[X] Set Equipment Doctrine: Well Equipped (-2 Metal)
Year 2
[X] Tame the Baranduin (-10 Gold, -20 Stone)
[X] Stone salvage in Lond Daer. (-? Gold)
Year 3
[X] Small Military District Upgrade: Armourers (-10 Gold)
[X] Stone salvage in Lond Daer. (-? Gold)
Year 4
[X] Small Military District Upgrade: Drill Square (-10 Gold)
[X] Stone salvage in Lond Daer. (-? Gold)
Year 5
->[X] Assign New Population (1) to Pasture (-3 Gold, + 2 Food, +1 Gold)
[X] Stone salvage in Lond Daer. (-? Gold)

Diplomacy and Military
Special: [X] Ransom the Ring of Barahir (-15 Gold, -10 Metal)
-[X] Pledge the Snowmen our aid, if they ever find themselves in need.
--[X] Indicate that we'd be open to future trade.
Year 1
[X] Send a missive to Tharbad saying that after their long years on their own, we will respect their decision to leave our protection. But if they ever find themselves in dire need of aid or refuge, we will be here. Investigate future trade.
->[X] The primary focus of the Rangers should now be on making safe the area surrounding Bree, and preventing evil things from reaching there.
Year 2
[X] Task our fleet with recovering masonry from the ruins of Lond Daer. The ruins of our old works will help to build the new.
Year 3
[X] Send an embassy around the Hithaeglir to the dispossessed Northmen who we have heard live in the Upper Vales of Anduin and in the eaves of the Great Wood. Tell them that our kingdom is fertile but unpeopled for as long as a horse can ride for many days. If any of them would like to come to dwell in friendship with us, we would gladly accept them.
Year 4
[X] Investigate if any of Durin's folk or their kin still dwell in the Ered Luin.
Year 5
[X] Send a few Rangers and kinsmen on an embassy to the timid half-men who are rumoured to live on the edges of Breeland. Try to establish relations.

Shipbuilding
Year 1
[X] Ciralya (Merchant Ship) (-10 Gold, -10 Wood) [Req. 1 Shipbuilding]
Year 3
[X] Ciralya (Merchant Ship) (-10 Gold, -10 Wood) [Req. 1 Shipbuilding]
Year 5
[X] Ciralya (Merchant Ship) (-10 Gold, -10 Wood) [Req. 1 Shipbuilding]

Trade and Treasury
[X] Import 2 Stone (-6 Gold/Turn)
[X] Import 2 Food (-4 Gold/Turn)
[X] Export 1 Hardwood to Mithlond (+6 Gold/Turn)
[X] Bank 3 Gold/Turn in Chieftain's Treasury
Net: -7 Gold/Turn
 
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@Pirx Thanks for voting for my plan, but I am switching to this plan now. It is almost identical with my old one and has a much higher chance of winning

PLAN SNOWBALL v3
GENERAL
[X] Ransom the Ring of Barahir (-15 Gold, -10 Metal)
[X] Cavalry: These horsemen are a short, sharp shock, and are willing to take casualties if it means dealing a decisive blow.
[X] Equipment Doctrine: Well Equipped (-2 Metal): +1 Attack/Defense
[X] Make effort to practice forestry management, and to replant trees where possible.
[X]Attempt to reconstitute a service of couriers/messengers to carry the Chieftain's messages and otherwise keep the cities connected.
[X]Dispatch party to scout Caras Nurnelen ruins

DIPLOMACY
[X]Rotate a section of the military to Bree regularly to show the flag and to help sweep the roads between Bree and Ost.
[X]Trade Hardwood to Mithlond for five years, as a favor to a treasured ally.
[X]Request advice from Mithlond on forestry management.
[X]And from Imladris on skulking patrolling through the wilderness; we're going to have to rebuild instituional knowledge lost with the fall of Fornost.
[X]Send emissaries to the Shire; it's right on the road to Bree, so no point neglecting it, and the Shire-hobbits did swear allegiance to the kings of Arnor. Besides, the halflings DID send a company of archers to the Battle of Fornost.

TRADE CONTRACT
[X] Import 2 Food (Market Price): -4 gold/turn
[X] Import 2 Stone (Market Price): -6 gold/turn
[X] Export 1 Hardwood (Market Price+1) [Mithlond]: +6 gold/turn
-4 gold/turn

ACTION
YEAR 1
[X] Ciralya (Merchant Ship) (-10 Gold, -10 Wood) [Req. 1 Shipbuilding]
[X] Fishing (-3 Gold, -2 Wood, +3 Food)<-[Unemployed unit of Population goes here]

YEAR 2
----[X] Armorers (-10 Gold, Increase Quality Available) [Req. Iron/Steel]
[X] Tame the Baranduin (-10 Gold, -20 Stone)

YEAR 3 [+1 POP!]
----[X] Drill Square (-10 Gold, Better Units)
[X] Logging Camp (-3 Gold, +3 Wood)[New Pop here]

YEAR 4
[X] Residential District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, +2 Housing)
[X] Mercantile District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, +2 Taxes)
--[X] Smithing Quarter (-5 Gold, -2 Taxes, 2 Iron -> 2 Steel Conversion)

YEAR 5[+1 POP!]
[X] Ciralya (Merchant Ship) (-10 Gold, -10 Wood) [Req. 1 Shipbuilding]
[X] Quarry (-3 Gold, +2 Stone) [New Pop here]
 
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Spacegnom said:
@Pirx Thanks for voting for my plan, but I am switching to this plan now. It is almost identical with my old one and has a much higher chance of winning

PLAN SNOWBALL v3
GENERAL
[X] Ransom the Ring of Barahir (-15 Gold, -10 Metal)
[X] Cavalry: These horsemen are a short, sharp shock, and are willing to take casualties if it means dealing a decisive blow.
[X] Equipment Doctrine: Well Equipped (-2 Metal): +1 Attack/Defense
[X] Make effort to practice forestry management, and to replant trees where possible.
[X]Attempt to reconstitute a service of couriers/messengers to carry the Chieftain's messages and otherwise keep the cities connected.
[X]Dispatch party to scout Caras Nurnelen ruins

DIPLOMACY
[X]Rotate a section of the military to Bree regularly to show the flag and to help sweep the roads between Bree and Ost.
[X]Trade Hardwood to Mithlond for five years, as a favor to a treasured ally.
[X]Request advice from Mithlond on forestry management.
[X]And from Imladris on skulking patrolling through the wilderness; we're going to have to rebuild instituional knowledge lost with the fall of Fornost.
[X]Send emissaries to the Shire; it's right on the road to Bree, so no point neglecting it, and the Shire-hobbits did swear allegiance to the kings of Arnor. Besides, the halflings DID send a company of archers to the Battle of Fornost.

TRADE CONTRACT
[X] Import 2 Food (Market Price): -4 gold/turn
[X] Import 2 Stone (Market Price): -6 gold/turn
[X] Export 1 Hardwood (Market Price+1) [Mithlond]: +6 gold/turn
-4 gold/turn

ACTION
YEAR 1
[X] Ciralya (Merchant Ship) (-10 Gold, -10 Wood) [Req. 1 Shipbuilding]
[X] Fishing (-3 Gold, -2 Wood, +3 Food)<-[Unemployed unit of Population goes here]

YEAR 2
----[X] Armorers (-10 Gold, Increase Quality Available) [Req. Iron/Steel]
[X] Tame the Baranduin (-10 Gold, -20 Stone)

YEAR 3 [+1 POP!]
----[X] Drill Square (-10 Gold, Better Units)
[X] Logging Camp (-3 Gold, +3 Wood)[New Pop here]

YEAR 4
[X] Residential District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, +2 Housing)
[X] Mercantile District (-5 Gold, -2 Stone, +2 Taxes)
--[X] Smithing Quarter (-5 Gold, -2 Taxes, 2 Iron -> 2 Steel Conversion)

YEAR 5[+1 POP!]
[X] Ciralya (Merchant Ship) (-10 Gold, -10 Wood) [Req. 1 Shipbuilding]
[X] Quarry (-3 Gold, +2 Stone) [New Pop here]
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Thank you for letting me know. I've changed my vote accordingly, although I really don't think it's a good idea to have cavalry as our only military unit. I'd prefer men-at-arms to defend our city.
 
Sayle said:
The military system works so you need a unit of population to field a military unit, but you only need to upgrade the armory and training grounds, not build new ones. I'm not entirely sure what the current argument is about, really.

Buildings don't produce the turn they are built, universally so. Things were running on a narrative rather than mechanical basis early on, before things smoothed out.
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Click to shrink...

Wait, really? Fair does. I'd assumed that bit of the old system had been carried over.

Okay, in that case, I'll amend my plan. Needed to get the bookkeeping finished anyway.

Spacegnom said:
Sorry it appears you were right, but here I found proof that building fishing boats boost Food production immediately:

Arguably from Turn 2, so :V
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@Sayle got to this first, but I think back when we were setting up, things were running a bit more fast and loose. It's been explicitly stated since then, and is implicit in every subsequent Year if you look into the figures, that it does not work this way.

uju32 said:
YEAR 3 [+1 POP!]
----[X] Drill Square (-10 Gold, Better Units)
[X] Logging Camp (-3 Gold, +3 Wood)[New Pop here]
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Spacegnom said:
YEAR 3 [+1 POP!]
----[X] Drill Square (-10 Gold, Better Units)
[X] Logging Camp (-3 Gold, +3 Wood)[New Pop here]
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Click to shrink...

A Population uptick in Year 3 is explicitly not going to happen.
 
Admiral Skippy said:
Five Year Plan: Securing our Foundation
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As a reminder to everyone, both the crafter and the voters:
Admiral Skippy said:
Year 3
[X] Assign labour that would have gone towards construction to stone salvage in Lond Daer. (-? Gold)
Year 4
[X] Assign labour that would have gone towards construction to stone salvage in Lond Daer. (-? Gold)
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As a reminder:
Vinyalondë, later called Lond Daer was founded in SA 750 by then crown prince Aldarion, later Tar-Aldarion, sixth king of Numenor.
Numenor fell in SA 3319. The Second Age ended in SA 3441. We are currently in TA 2000.
That city is five thousand years old.

We cannot rebuild any of this shit, any more than we can go out and make a new palantir.
We lack the knowledge base or the metaphysical blessings, and the Edain have been diminished; barring the Valar reaching out and literally touching us, the mythology of the Legendarium suggests we will never again reach those heights of manufacture or artistry.

Please do not vote to destroy shit we cannot rebuild for trinkets.
 
Admiral Skippy said:
A Population uptick in Year 3 is explicitly not going to happen.
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Again: You. Are. Wrong.
I will repost it:
Year 1: +1 Food from residuals, +2 from Trade, +1 from low Tax bonus.
+4/14.
Year 2: + 1Food from residuals, + 2 from Trade, + 3 from new Fishing, +3 from low Tax bonus
13/14
Year 3: +1 Food from residuals, + 2 from Trade, +3 from new Fishing, + 3 from low Tax bonus
22/14
8/15. Subtract 1 to increase Food reserves to 14/14
7/15
+ 1 Food from residuals lost due to increase in population
Year 4: No food from residuals, + 2 from Trade, +3 from new Fishing, +2 from low Tax bonus
14/15
Year 5: No food from residuals, +2 from Trade, +3 from new Fishing
21/15
6/16. Subtract 1 to increase Food Reserves to 15/15
5/15
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TL;DR
Population upticks at (end of) Year 3 and (end of)Year 5.
Trade and residual food production are responsible in Year 1, not the new construction.
 
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Admiral Skippy said:
A Population uptick in Year 3 is explicitly not going to happen.
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It won't happen at the start of Year 3, but it will happen during Year 3. The plan also only builds the logging camp in year 3. So, by Year 4 the logging camp will be up and running. Worst case scenario we lose 3 Wood, our city will deal with that minor hickup.
 
uju32 said:
Again: You. Are. Wrong.
I will repost it:

TL;DR
Population upticks at Year 3 and Year 5.
Trade and residual food production are responsible in Year 1, not the new construction.
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Yes, and I laid out much simpler figures showing why we wouldn't.

...What in the blazes is "residual" food production? This is something I've never heard of before. Do you just mean food production?

EDIT: Even by your own figures, you should know that we don't reach Population 14 in Year 3. We reach it at the start of Year 4. This is the way incomes and turn orders have been computed since... forever, basically.

Spacegnom said:
It won't happen at the start of Year 3, but it will happen during Year 3. The plan also only builds the logging camp in year 3. So, by Year 4 the logging camp will be up and running. Worst case scenario we lose 3 Wood, our city will deal with that minor hickup.
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It will happen in the start of Year 4. There is no advantage to building it in advance that I know of. I'm not even sure we can.
 
Five Year Plan: Securing our Foundation

Civic Construction
Year 1
->[X] Assign Unassigned Population (1) to Logging Camp (-3 Gold, +3 Wood)
[X] Set Equipment Doctrine: Well Equipped (-2 Metal)
Year 2
[X] Tame the Baranduin (-10 Gold, -20 Stone)
Year 3
[X] Assign labour that would have gone towards construction to stone salvage in Lond Daer. (-? Gold)
Year 4
[X] Assign labour that would have gone towards construction to stone salvage in Lond Daer. (-? Gold)
Year 5
->[X] Assign New Population (1) to Pasture (-3 Gold, + 2 Food, +1 Gold)
[X] Assign labour that would have gone towards construction to stone salvage in Lond Daer. (-? Gold)

Diplomacy and Military
Special: [X] Ransom the Ring of Barahir (-15 Gold, -10 Metal)
-[X] Pledge the Snowmen our aid, if they ever find themselves in need.
--[X] Indicate that we'd be open to future trade.
Year 1
[X] Send a missive to Tharbad saying that after their long years on their own, we will respect their decision to leave our protection. But if they ever find themselves in dire need of aid or refuge, we will be here. Investigate future trade.
->[X] The primary focus of the Rangers should now be on making safe the area surrounding Bree, and preventing evil things from reaching there.
Year 2
[X] Task our fleet with recovering masonry from the ruins of Lond Daer. The ruins of our old works will help to build the new.
Year 3
[X] Send an embassy around the Hithaeglir to the dispossessed Northmen who we have heard live in the Upper Vales of Anduin and in the eaves of the Great Wood. Tell them that our kingdom is fertile but unpeopled for as long as a horse can ride for many days. If any of them would like to come to dwell in friendship with us, we would gladly accept them.
Year 4
[X] Investigate if any of Durin's folk or their kin still dwell in the Ered Luin.
Year 5
[X] Send a few Rangers and kinsmen on an embassy to the timid half-men who are rumoured to live on the edges of Breeland. Try to establish relations.

Shipbuilding
Year 1
[X] Ciralya (Merchant Ship) (-10 Gold, -10 Wood) [Req. 1 Shipbuilding]
Year 3
[X] Ciralya (Merchant Ship) (-10 Gold, -10 Wood) [Req. 1 Shipbuilding]
Year 5
[X] Ciryarámar (Sailing Ship) (-10 Gold, -10 Wood) [Req. 1 Shipbuilding]

Trade and Treasury
[X] Import 2 Stone (-6 Gold/Turn)
[X] Import 2 Food (-4 Gold/Turn)
[X] Export 1 Hardwood to Mithlond (+6 Gold/Turn)
[X] Bank 3 Gold/Turn in Chieftain's Treasury
 
Year 1
Food Surplus: +1 Food Surplus (Domestic Production) + 2 Food Surplus (Trade) = +3 Food Surplus
Growth: + 4
Population: (4/14 Growth, 14/14 Stored)
Year 2
Food Surplus: +4 Food Surplus (Domestic Production) + 2 Food Surplus (Trade) = +6 Food Surplus
Growth: + 9
Population: (13/14 Growth, 14/14 Stored)
Year 3
Food Surplus: +4 Food Surplus (Domestic Production) + 2 Food Surplus (Trade) = +6 Food Surplus
Growth: + 9
Population: (6-7/15 Growth, 15/15 Stored) Depending on when the storage food is subtracted.
POP growth over the course/at the end of Year 3
Year 4
Food Surplus: +3 Food Surplus (Domestic Production) + 2 Food Surplus (Trade) = +5 Food Surplus
Growth: + 7
Population: (13-14/15 Growth, 15/15 Stored)
Year 5
POP growth over the course/at the end of Year 5.

Admiral Skippy said:
It will happen in the start of Year 4. There is no advantage to building it in advance that I know of. I'm not even sure we can.
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Yes, there is an advantage: At the start of Year 4 we will have a filled production building. The same at the start of Year 6. We are making sure we don't have the same problem as we are having right now. In Year 1 we have the population but no building for it, thus are loosing the production from this POP in Year 1.
 
Admiral Skippy said:
Yes, and I laid out much simpler figures showing why we wouldn't.
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Jesus Christ man.
We have a population increase at the END OF YEAR 3.

That's why we're building production buildings in year 3, so that as the population grows it shunts immediately into place, and starts producing next turn.
Instead of waiting an additional turn for us to build shit.
Admiral Skippy said:
...What in the blazes is "residual" food production? This is something I've never heard of before. Do you just mean food production?
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The excess food production that rolled over from the previous turn.
Currently at +1.
Called residual to differentiate it from the new food production being constructed this turn, and from the food coming in from trade.
 
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Spacegnom said:
Yes, there is an advantage: At the start of Year 4 we will have a filled production building. The same at the start of Year 6. We are making sure we don't have the same problem as we are having right now. In Year 1 we have the population but no building for it, thus are loosing the production from this POP in Year 1.
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This is a reasonable point, but not in instance I think. There will be an uptick in Year 4 and in Year 6 under your planning, assuming no Harsh Winters derail things, so you can plan a production building of your choice in Year 4, and in Year 6, it's a new Turn with a new plan anyway. What happened at the start of this turn was a bit of a special case because an uptick occurred in Year 5 when we didn't expect it to, and hadn't gotten an assignment scheduled. But the uptick has to happen in Year 5 and we need to have not seen it coming somehow for that to happen. In general it's not a huge worry.

uju32 said:
Jesus Christ man.
We have a population increase at the END OF YEAR 3.

That's why we're building production buildings in year 3, so that as the population grows it shunts immediately into place, and starts producing next turn.
Instead of waiting an additional turn for us to build shit.
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Please don't take that tone with me.

Given how your plan was phrased, it was not clear that you meant the end of Year 3 rather than the start. Regardless, that isn't how income and turn structure work, although putting it at the end of Year 3 is certainly far less wrong than putting it at the start. Income is always at the start of a turn, coming from the previous turn; hence Growth from Year 3's food surplus is added at the start of Year 4, not the end of Year 3, and so the uptick only occurs at the start of Year 4. This is an admittedly technical distinction but it is pretty fundamental to how the income system works.

Having a production site pre-built in advance for a Population uptick to immediately slot into is actually kind of a new one because we've never done it. I'm not actually convinced we can do it; and if it's a way of getting a year's production earlier then I imagine @Sayle might veto it. Also in terms of what population growth and setting up production sites represent logistically, I'm not sure it would hugely decrease the lead-in time. But feel free to check with him, I easily could be wrong.
 
uju32 said:
As a reminder to everyone, both the crafter and the voters:
As a reminder:
Vinyalondë, later called Lond Daer was founded in SA 750 by then crown prince Aldarion, later Tar-Aldarion, sixth king of Numenor.
Numenor fell in SA 3319. The Second Age ended in SA 3441. We are currently in TA 2000.
That city is five thousand years old.

We cannot rebuild any of this shit, any more than we can go out and make a new palantir.
We lack the knowledge base or the metaphysical blessings, and the Edain have been diminished; barring the Valar reaching out and literally touching us, the mythology of the Legendarium suggests we will never again reach those heights of manufacture or artistry.

Please do not vote to destroy shit we cannot rebuild for trinkets.
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I know, it is not an easy decision, but, we leave the ruins as they were hoping that, sometime in the next century we might try resettling and remain living in the past, or try to move on, and build a new realm out of the carcass of the old?, that doeesn't mean we will flatten the whole place with no rhyme or reason, just take extra resources from the more decayed areas, areas that we will probably have to torn down when/if we resettle the place.
Hell we could also see about scavenging the area, things might have left behind when the place was abandoned and we might find some use for those...
 
Updated the plan and the attendant bookkeeping. Changed the Ciryarámar to a third Ciralya after finding out from @Sayle that the former is essentially a naval vessel and can't really function as a generalist. Added in a Drill Square and an Armourers. Don't think the third tier are worth it right now, since they're expensive and don't actually do anything but give options which we won't be utilising right now anyway.

Plan Securing our Foundation
Votes (5): Me, @Alayn, @Guilliman, @StarkDemise, @Chaos Blade

uju32 said:
The men of Bree didn't loot Fornost for building materials, despite it's being ~ a hundred miles or so away.
Not to mention that you underestimate the value of Lon Daer, which was Numenorean built at the height of the power of the Edain.
It would be like suggesting looting Orthanc for the stone.

This isn't a case where you are short of stone.
It's a matter of not wanting to pay for it.
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uju32 said:
As a reminder:
Vinyalondë, later called Lond Daer was founded in SA 750 by then crown prince Aldarion, later Tar-Aldarion, sixth king of Numenor.
Numenor fell in SA 3319. The Second Age ended in SA 3441. We are currently in TA 2000.
That city is five thousand years old.
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Apologies for not addressing this and your other post on the topic before; I've been a bit busy. To briefly go through my reasons here, spoilered for length:
- We do in my view face a bit of a Stone crisis right now; this isn't simply a case of me trying to be a cheapskate. If you look at the build list, fully walling the city and expanding to the other bank will cost one hundred and eight Stone. That's before we build a single district, or more walls for the East side. Our current income is inadequate to the task, and even with extra imports soon, it's still a very daunting task. Every little helps right now

- It's true that the original haven is ancient, but I sincerely doubt that Lond Daer has a wealth of cultural treasures, and in the unlikely event that it does, I'm unsure why we'd choose them to salvage. It's inaccurate however to characterise it as some great wonder of Middle Earth or site of special cultural significance; Lond Daer is never described in those kind of terms, and there are plenty of sites which are. Lond Daer is honestly not described that much at all except in generalities; it's not hugely important in the grand scheme of the narrative. It was a port, shipyard, and logsitics hub which declined when local timber did. There are probably some nice looking ruins, but we aren't talking about the Dome of Stars here.

- Also the original settlement of Lond Daer was apparently destroyed like, a few times, by local wildmen pissed off about their forests getting cut down. (Sound familiar?) There may not even be much of the original settlement left; I imagine most of it is more recent construction; the remnants of walls, warehouses, etc.. That's primarily what I want to salvage.

- If there are genuine works of beauty left standing there, I'm not sure why we'd choose to scavenge them for stone. They're going to be a very small proportion of the ruins compared to all of the masonry left over from being a big logistics hub.

- I think you need to decide whether Lond Daer has black stone in the manner of Orthanc or not. If it does, then we couldn't salvage it if we wanted to; the stuff is fucking indestructible by steel tools. So there's no issue. If it doesn't, then there's also no issue with "looting Orthanc". Either way this particular point kind of refutes itself.

- I don't think a comparison to Bree and Fornost is quite apt. The Breelanders are a different ethnicity from the Dúnedain, they're culturally distinct; they couldn't really claim any legitimate ownership over their ruins. They were also kind of scared shitless of Dúnedain ghosts and thought Fornost was haunted, naming it Deadman's Dike. Also they didn't build that much in stone to begin with so it wouldn't even be that worth it. This is a quite different situation; we're salvaging our own inheritance, we do not fear any memories in Lond Daer, and we do need the stone.

All this being said, there is certainly a valid in-character reason to want to leave the ruins exactly as they are, down to the last stone.

If we venerate our heritage more than our future, if we believe that all our glories are in the past, then it makes sense to treat even the tumbled stones of a supply depot as sacred. This mentality isn't alien to the Dúnedain in exile, it's very much in character for them. Constantly brooding over their vanished glories, and the diminishment of their lifespans. (Ironically, this led to further diminishment.) It's happening in Gondor right now, where great tombs for the dead are becoming more prestigious than the houses of the living. We can go that way if we want.

Or we can believe that we have glories yet to come. That our story is not simply the epilogue to a vanished glorious past. That we can rebuild. In that light, making some of the work of our ancestors live again by using it to rebuild our fallen kingdom all the stronger is honouring them. We can believe in a new dawn, even if much is lost to us.

The choice is ours.
 
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