Night_stalker
Slava Ukraini!
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] New population should fill empty districts if they are available.
City Building in Middle-Earth
- Thread starter Sayle
- Start date
-
- Tags
- lotr middle-earth
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
.... really? like really? ..... in 30 years were going to have to deal with this again in the form of an invasion by the wild men lead by someone who knows how our warriors think.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
[X] New population should fill empty districts if they are available.
Let me quote the Fellowship of The Ring:.... really? like really? ..... in 30 years were going to have to deal with this again in the form of an invasion by the wild men lead by someone who knows how our warriors think.
-Gandalf, when asked about killing Gollum.
Remember the world you are in, and how it works.
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- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
cute, and completely irrelevant, there is a difference to letting someone go who was consumed by evil and letting someone go because reasons of being good, after all the ring would have been destroyed if the elf shot the man and tossed them both into the mountain.
- Location
- Tel'aran'rhiod
Your writing really rings of Tolkien's and that's pretty cool
Would it?
You fundamentally misunderstand how the LoTRverse works. Intent matters. Mercy matters. Words matter. Oaths matter.
When Gollum broke his oath to Frodo, he set himself up for blowback, which ultimately saved Frodo himself.
When people like Gandalf Mithrandir Olorin, who is himself of the Maia, someone who was there and helped Eru Iluvatar create the world, tells you to be wary of a rush to final solutions, you listen.
This is not a world where your human-optimized solutions work, and unintended consequences are a thing.
I can see a situation where by killing the boy himself, Arvedui radicalizes some other kids who hide their antipathy better and grow up before causing shit.
As for the elf shooting the man and tossing him and the ring both into the mountain, do you think it was a coincidence that everyone of power avoided coming too close to that damn thing? The fucking thing sank it's hooks into Isildur, who had only seen it that day.
Did the same thing to Boromir at a distance.
None of the Wise would willingly handle it, and murdering an ally so you could get to decide what happened to it would almost certainly put you in it's power. That, after all, is how Smeagol became Gollum: by murdering his cousin.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
once again cute, apparently shooting him and tossing him with the ring down the volcano is of course impossible, its not like they were both part of an last alliance to resist and put and end to the very evil the elf let walk out of the volcano. It seems both the man and the elf broke their word anyway they are already fucked, after all going though the motions to simply break the dam thing and be done with it is simply impossible? I mean really at that point it's not murder, after all the man by keeping the evil would only make more victims by being allowed to live for no greater good in the end, rather much like our case here.
FieryMatter
Fire and Fiery
- Location
- Beyond the Sunset Sea
Capital punishment is not the only way to deal with murderers. Weregild and exile have documented use with Arda.
IMO exile was the best option. It sends out a very clear message to the newcomers that regardless of what happened in the past, they NEED to rely on us now; and if they aren't willing to behave they would suffer the same fate as the boy. It also keeps our hands clean.
@SpeckofStardust I assume you are referring to the film, where Isildur and Elrond were in Mount Doom. I don't recall this exact scene happen in the books, but assume Elrond shot Isildur in the films - what do you think would have happened? I'd put it this way: there is a large army of elves and a large army of men camped outside the mountain. If 2 of the leaders go in and one of them comes back out, utter chaos would break out and both armies would slaughter each other.
Also, keep in mind that Elrond and Isildur are distantly related. If it were your cousin or other relative, would you have done the thing you suggested? It's one thing to tough guy behind a keyboard, another to do the deed yourself.
There are reasons why things are done, and the toughest solution is almost never the best solution - especially in Tolkien's world.
Edit: oh, and btw here is what would have happened - by killing Isildur, he would have turned more to the 'dark side' as to be open to the Ring's temptations, which means that he would have taken up the ring himself. gg I guess?
Edit 2: In LoTR itself, it was the 'cute' Faramir who was able to succeed in resisting temptation from the Ring, while it was the 'tough guy' Boromir who failed. Mercy is a very important quality.
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- Location
- Germany
Given what happened
It sounds more like our chieftain cursed, kinda like what Aragons ancestor did to the mountain ghosts
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
for the sake of the world and peace between our peoples?
neither one of us would have left the mountain alive in the situation were we both can't agree to end that which could cause the end of the world.
FieryMatter
Fire and Fiery
- Location
- Beyond the Sunset Sea
Let's assume Elrond stops Isildur. Who stops Elrond? After all Isildur is now dead.
BTW exile in a pre-industrial society is basically capital punishment anyway. They won't be able to sustain themselves for long, and remember most settlements in the vicinity are destroyed.
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[X] New population should fill empty districts if they are available.
Great update. It did feel Tolkienic, especially Arvedui's reaction and judgement.
I don't want to start a massive bicker here, but the impression I got from the update wasn't that exile was seen as extending clemency. Whatever he was in his soul that led Arvedui to the decision he made, he clearly thought it merited exile. This kid was eight when he left his people, likely not enough time to learn a full suite of survival skills. Also whilst they're pretty primitive I didn't get the impression his people were actually hunter-gatherers, so independent woodland survival may not even have been a large part of his native cultural toolkit to begin with. He's probably going to die of exposure or eventual starvation in the woods after spending days or weeks wandering around.
But let's take off-chance he doesn't die, and doesn't find peace in isolation, and manages to somehow find an army rather than just being an embittered wildman alone in the woods. All of which are individually unlikely, by the way, and in compound even moreso. In that case, honestly I think having a personalised villain with a backstory and grievance actually established through the events of our quest and our own choices would be pretty damn cool. Those are almost always the best kind of villains. But I wouldn't really worry about it in the first place, it's not very likely.
EDIT:
Ooh, good catch there. Yeah that seems quite possible.
Great update. It did feel Tolkienic, especially Arvedui's reaction and judgement.
.... really? like really? ..... in 30 years were going to have to deal with this again in the form of an invasion by the wild men lead by someone who knows how our warriors think.
I don't want to start a massive bicker here, but the impression I got from the update wasn't that exile was seen as extending clemency. Whatever he was in his soul that led Arvedui to the decision he made, he clearly thought it merited exile. This kid was eight when he left his people, likely not enough time to learn a full suite of survival skills. Also whilst they're pretty primitive I didn't get the impression his people were actually hunter-gatherers, so independent woodland survival may not even have been a large part of his native cultural toolkit to begin with. He's probably going to die of exposure or eventual starvation in the woods after spending days or weeks wandering around.
But let's take off-chance he doesn't die, and doesn't find peace in isolation, and manages to somehow find an army rather than just being an embittered wildman alone in the woods. All of which are individually unlikely, by the way, and in compound even moreso. In that case, honestly I think having a personalised villain with a backstory and grievance actually established through the events of our quest and our own choices would be pretty damn cool. Those are almost always the best kind of villains. But I wouldn't really worry about it in the first place, it's not very likely.
EDIT:
Ooh, good catch there. Yeah that seems quite possible.
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Night_stalker
Slava Ukraini!
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Exile into the woods where he's grown up, basically sending him back home? Yeah, real punishing.
Especially after that sob story that totally can't be verified.
It'd better be, or I'm going to be upset.
1) No, Isildur did not break his word.
It was indeed his decision to make, as the ranking heir of the line of Numenor after Sauron killed his father and brother.
It was a fuckstupid decision, but it was HIS.
2) Splitting hairs like "at that point it's not murder" is bullshit.
Intent and the spirit of the matter tends to win out well over the letter of it, especially in this universe.
3) Killing Elendil's son in front of Elendil's army?
You might as well do Sauron's work for him.
4) This is all a digression from the actual issues here.
Dunno how we got to Elrond and Isildur and Sauron's loss of the ring.
5) Acknowledging the kid as the next best thing to the dead man's child makes him kin.
Kin-slaying is Serious Business in the LoTRverse for everyone involved. Just ask the Noldor, and the Children of Feanor.
Chaos Blade
Procrastinating Writer
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
[X] New population should fill empty districts if they are available.
Personally, I think the judgment was either too lenient or too cruel.
Let us keep in mind Arnor Fell and Gondor will decline, that means there are good odds the Numenorean way of life was somehow flawed (actually I'd say very, given how fast Numenor went from worshiping Illuviatar to making human sacrifice to Morgoth to trying to invade Aman; Sauron played an important part in that but... it still happened way too fast for my peace of mind) and again, with the Breaking of Arnor and the death of the Gondorian royal house and Gondor's power waning,.
It also speaks of a certain rigidity within the Arnorian mind, if what the boy says was true, that was a serious part of the problem.
Personally, I think the judgment was either too lenient or too cruel.
Let us keep in mind Arnor Fell and Gondor will decline, that means there are good odds the Numenorean way of life was somehow flawed (actually I'd say very, given how fast Numenor went from worshiping Illuviatar to making human sacrifice to Morgoth to trying to invade Aman; Sauron played an important part in that but... it still happened way too fast for my peace of mind) and again, with the Breaking of Arnor and the death of the Gondorian royal house and Gondor's power waning,.
It also speaks of a certain rigidity within the Arnorian mind, if what the boy says was true, that was a serious part of the problem.
Can't be both man.
Schrodinger has no power here.
Arnor was destroyed due to a systematic campaign by the Witch King.
Gondor was systematically persecuted by Sauron over the best part of three millenia.
I fail to see why either suggests flaws in the Numenorean way of life, any more than the fall of Nargothrond suggests that Thingol was doing it wrong.
Besides, it's the lot of Man that all things change and die; it's their curse, and their gift.
Dude, Sauron was Maia.
Mairon of Aule was one of the most powerful Maia in service to Aule the Smith, prior to Melkor Bauglir seducing him; way more powerful than Olorin(Gandalf) and Curumno(Saruman).
You may only remember the ugly and intimidating Sauron of the years after Numenor sank into the sea, when he had to build a new body from scratch. But in those days he was fair and charismatic and a notable dissembler at need; for a long time in the First Age he was Melkor's spy in the lands of the Valar, funneling information to him.
The moment the Numenoreans took him home with them instead of possibly handing him over to the Valar, they were fucked.
You don't expose yourself to social-fu of that potency without consequence; give it an inch, and you're lost.
Sauron and his plots.
Everything from whispers to stir up strife, to insurgency waged by evil spirits and engineered creatures, to biological warfare like the Great Plague that devastated the populations of Gondor and Arnor and killed the White Tree.
Sauron showing up with his soldiers was just the culmination of a long, meticulously plotted strategy executed over centuries.
Don't get me wrong, the Gondorians/Arnorians did fall into some stupid shit of their own accord, like men tend to do.
But all of it was survivable if not for Sauron and his minions stirring the pot.
What rigidity?
I honestly don't know what you're talking about.
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I think the reason Ardevui was so angered and came to the judgement he did was because when he looked into the boy's mind, it turned out that nothing the boy said was true.
He more or less says outright that it was a deliberate murder premediated over a number of years, in fact. Which is pretty fucking disturbing coming from an eleven year old, to be sure, and would also explain his statement about hatred having "strangled all things good in you". Obviously this relies on Ardevui himself having been truthful, but I'm inclined to think he was, as his appalled reaction seemed pretty genuine to me.
- Location
- nz
[X] New population should fill empty districts if they are available.