Remove ads

Echoes of Creation (30k/Exalted)

Reader mode
DragonParadox said:
I think the mutation that grants something like immunity to (more) mutation is Homogeneity, though how that plays with what is already a three eyed mutant is anyone's guess.

Given that in 40K the Webway is explicitly falling apart I do not think it is reasonable to count on it to just resist the literal tide of entropy that is the warp forever. Put it this way the Webway in canon has existed in something like it's present form since just after the War in Heaven sixty million years ago, it has been without maintenance for ten thousand years, that is 0.016% . It ain't doing so well in the present.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Homogeneity suppresses magic powers in general.

Immunity to warp mutation can be gained with the power Immunity, which means you aren't affected by the thing you're immune to. We just pick warp energy as that thing.

Balefire is an explicit example of something you can be immune to (basically evil green magic comic book radiation in Werewolf), which is a pretty good analogy for raw warp energy, as it's a similarly damaging, mutagenic energy.

On the Webway, I think most of the damage was done by the Fall or by subsequent daemonic intrusion, and the Emperor has non-psyker soldiers who can kill daemons (blanks).

And as I mention, the Dark Eldar can maintain the parts of the Webway they control with technology rather than psyker powers. The Emperor could easily be planning to steal that from them and give copies to his own people.

The Dark Eldar don't need psykers to maintain the Webway, so it's not unreasonable for the Emperor to assume that he doesn't either.
 
Alratan said:
Homogeneity suppresses magic powers in general.

Immunity to warp mutation can be gained with the power Immunity, which means you aren't affected by the thing you're immune to. We just pick warp energy as that thing.

Balefire is an explicit example of something you can be immune to (basically evil green magic comic book radiation in Werewolf), which is a pretty good analogy for raw warp energy, as it's a similarly damaging, mutagenic energy.

On the Webway, I think most of the damage was done by the Fall or by subsequent daemonic intrusion, and the Emperor has non-psyker soldiers who can kill daemons (blanks).

And as I mention, the Dark Eldar can maintain the parts of the Webway they control with technology rather than psyker powers. The Emperor could easily be planning to steal that from them and give copies to his own people.

The Dark Eldar don't need psykers to maintain the Webway, so it's not unreasonable for the Emperor to assume that he doesn't either.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I do not think there are enough blanks to cover a galaxy sized Webway... and there are going to be a heck of a lot fewer as humanity becomes a psychic species, again a case where his stated objective runs counter to his means of pursuing it. But this is not even the worst of it. If we game this out for a moment, the Emperor is about to take the Dark City, the Dark Eldar (or those who would become them) are domed to death and thus to the embrace of She-Who Thirsts... why are they letting the humans have the tech to manipulate the Webway? Why are they letting the humans have the Webway? All it would take is someone in charge of that last desperate defense thinking 'fuck you to the Warp' and the Emperor has to deal with a breach vastly larger and more dangerous then what he got on Tera. In this plan he would be betting against Dark Eldar being spiteful... dying Dark Eldar no less. The idea that he could not only take Commorragh not just intact, but with all the command codes still usable is very far fetched.
 
DragonParadox said:
I do not think there are enough blanks to cover a galaxy sized Webway... and there are going to be a heck of a lot fewer as humanity becomes a psychic species, again a case where his stated objective runs counter to his means of pursuing it. But this is not even the worst of it. If we game this out for a moment, the Emperor is about to take the Dark City, the Dark Eldar (or those who would become them) are domed to death and thus to the embrace of She-Who Thirsts... why are they letting the humans have the tech to manipulate the Webway? Why are they letting the humans have the Webway? All it would take is someone in charge of that last desperate defense thinking 'fuck you to the Warp' and the Emperor has to deal with a breach vastly larger and more dangerous then what he got on Tera. In this plan he would be betting against Dark Eldar being spiteful... dying Dark Eldar no less. The idea that he could not only take Commorragh not just intact, but with all the command codes still usable is very far fetched.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It was apparently his canon plan.

Of course, in this era, the Webway Eldar weren't mostly living in a single city. There were many Webway ports and realms. He may have just predicted that he could capture someone with the knowledge in one of them.

After all; Eldar don't die when they're killed. He could well have been capable of capturing the soul of a Haemmunculi with the relevant knowledge and forcibly extracting it.

Beyond that, he may not need all of the Webway to survive intact. Even by 40K there are still individual Webway port-cities that are 1AU radius Dyson spheres with towers that stretch from one side to the other suspended as bubbles in the Warp. Ignoring the towers, that one realm would have a surface area the size of six hundred million earths. That one port city alone could fit in the entire galactic population of humans on a tiny fraction of its surface, with functionally unlimited space for the population to grow.

Back in 30K, before Vect merged many of the Port Cities into one realm, there may have been lots of these.

If Calastar; the Webway city that the Imperial Webway was a breach into was if similar scale*, simply taking that one realm alone was probably enough, even if the rest of the Webway fell, if he could seal the portals that lead away from there his plan would probably succeed.

* which it probably is, as it was described as a major hub, similar to the Dyson sphere scale one, and it had bridges over gaps between buildings so deep that the Mechanicus calculated you'd die of old age before reaching the bottom of you fell. This in an environment of apparently regular gravity and atmosphere.
 
Last edited:
The Emperor taking over the Elder webway makes zero since, compared to making his own. The Dark Elder have the resources and technology to easily destroy any force sent into the their webway up to and including an attack from every imperial world launched simultaneous.

Also you can be assured the Emperor knows how to activate Elder webway gates, so why bother making his own gate to connect to their system.
 
The Froggy Ninja said:
4. Sorcerously make an Attendant with Awakened Dream Manufacture, Forging the Graces and several stacks of Worker's Gift to spam out Guides.
5. Make the aforementioned Attendant and just have it force Way Graces for Navigators.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I am not sure if you can make an artifact that can mass produce Rakshas. Will have to think on this, though be warned, I will probably go with, transform people artifact, like the Turn People into vampire power Holden made in ExWoD.
Ternasta said:
@Yzarc, is the True Death of Fateweaver something that was noticed by Farseers and other seers, or did they just register a change in the potential futures?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The True Death of Fateweaver was an event you got because of Corax. Essentially it was an opportunity to completely flip the board and give the middle finger to all the Gods and God like beings. ALL of them. From the indecisive mollusk to the laughing clown. All of them are going "Not as planned. Not as planned." Even Isha. Yes she too had a plan as well.

So yeah, beings of power, both great and not, definitely noticed. About the only thing that remains the same is the finding of the Primarches, as no power wants to rock that boat, but everything else, from the Rangadam Xenocide to Ullanor is now up in the air.

This is what has the Emperor so worried.
DragonParadox said:
I think the mutation that grants something like immunity to (more) mutation is Homogeneity, though how that plays with what is already a three eyed mutant is anyone's guess.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is more a blank power or that is how I am treating it.
Alratan said:
Homogeneity suppresses magic powers in general.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I am specifically disallowing immunity to Warp. Only Anti-Shaping defenses work. Only non-souled beings, of which Blanks do not count, can take that. So Necrons, with their living metal bodies.
 
Milstead18 said:
Question people who can see the future like Sanguinius and Konrad are they like blind to the future or not
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You can see the near future. But the further you go, the harder it gets before jumping directly into the deep end suddenly.

So for those two specifically, they can still use the near future to their advantage, just nothing long term.
 
Lord4StarCommand said:
Hopefully that shows Konrad that the future is not set in stone.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Unfortunately no. For reasons not known to you, he constantly sees the bad end as well as the good, what can go wrong as well as right.

This is taking a toll on his as due to the planet he landed on, most are criminals and choose the bad end. This is conditioning him, with his breaking point being saving or killing that young boy.

Unfortunately you are not in a position to do anything about this. But Fan is the best person to break Konrad out of his thoughts and help him deal with his split personality, the Night Haunter.

Konrad is a good man, the Night Haunter? Not so much. Doing this will do a LOT in saving Konrad.
 
Earth-Destroyer said:
The Emperor taking over the Elder webway makes zero since, compared to making his own. The Dark Elder have the resources and technology to easily destroy any force sent into the their webway up to and including an attack from every imperial world launched simultaneous.

Also you can be assured the Emperor knows how to activate Elder webway gates, so why bother making his own gate to connect to their system.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Because the Eldar know how to disable their own Webway Gates. The Emperor needed to tear open his own rift into the warp and build his own tunnel front there to join up with a hole in drilled into the nearest Webway Nexus to bypass those protections.

And the Emperor probably had the hubris to think he could take the proto-DE.

Yzarc said:
I am specifically disallowing immunity to Warp. Only Anti-Shaping defenses work. Only non-souled beings, of which Blanks do not count, can take that. So Necrons, with their living metal bodies.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I thought, from back when we had the Vision Quest, that one of the reasons it was only a social challenge was that TDC made us both immune to environmental exposure to the Warp.

Although, I suppose, TDC is a Shaping Defence amongst other things, if one limited to environmental Shaping effects produced by places of Desolation, like the Wyld in Exalted, and the Warp here.
 
Yzarc said:
Ah. Let me clarify. TDS protects from passive warp phanomenia. Since the warp is a twisted reflection of reality, passive hazzards count as environmental damage.

If something actively uses the warp to screw with you, that is shaping.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

In terms of the current discussion, presumably the mutations that Navigators acquire by using their powers to look at the Warp would be a passive hazard. It's not someone actively using the warp, it's just a side effect of looking at it with the warp eye, as while the eye protects against insanity and gives some defence against that mutation, that protection is not absolute. It the same as how you shouldn't be blinded by the glare of being in a desert with bright white sands at noon, writ large. I think there are some Wyld environmental hazards in Exalted that are sight based.

Fortunately for them, here, the Warp always counts as a Place of Desolation.
 
Hm, flipping the board may not necessarily be negative in the longer term for the likes of Isha and Cegorach. Perhaps Fan Morgal could eventually communicate with them. Some manner of cooperation may not be out of the question.

As to Konrad Curze, well, as said, there is nothing to be done at this point. Fan Morgal and Lorgar can only help once they actually become spaceborne and eventually meet Curze.

While they are at it, Fan Morgal and Lorgar might as well play therapist to Perturabo.

If so, well, Lorgar could potentially stand to secure friendship and alliance with Magnus, Guilliman, Corax, Sanguinius, Curze, Perturabo, and perhaps Khan. An excellent starting point, certainly.

As for the others, aside from Mortarion's locked rancor, hm, even if Russ does not align with Mortarion where Lorgar and Fan Morgal are concerned, he is still troublesome as the Emperor's leal hound. The same problem applies to Dorn and Jonson.
 
Last edited:
Tzaphquiel said:
Hm, flipping the board may not necessarily be negative in the longer term for the likes of Isha and Cegorach. Perhaps Fan Morgal could eventually communicate with them. Some manner of cooperation may not be out of the question.

As to Konrad Curze, well, as said, there is nothing to be done at this point. Fan Morgal and Lorgar can only help once they actually become spaceborne and eventually meet Curze.

While they are at it, Fan Morgal and Lorgar might as well play therapist to Perturabo.

If so, well, Lorgar could potentially stand to secure friendship and alliance with Magnus, Guilliman, Corax, Sanguinius, Curze, Perturabo, and perhaps Khan. An excellent starting point, certainly.

As for the others, aside from Mortarion's locked rancor, hm, even if Russ does not align with Mortarion where Lorgar and Fan Morgal are concerned, he is still troublesome as the Emperor's leal hound. The same problem applies to Dorn and Jonson.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Taking the Primarchs in order of their rediscovery for a a board analyses:

Horus
  • He is charismatic and likes to be liked, so he's probably going to make a move in that direction with Lorgar
  • On the other hand he likes to be daddy's special boy and that may lead to some friction born of jealousy same as with Roboute, what with all the magic and the multiple worlds
  • When not if we tell the Emperor to shove it in some matter Horus is likely to take it more personally than the Emperor
Leman Rus
  • Shamanism is something we have in common, on the other hand all the other stuff we do is liable to annoy him almost as much as the Thousand Sons and Sol help us if he ever figures out what Wildhsaping is
  • He is one of those 'respect strength' types and unlike Mortarion he isn't a bastard about it. Maybe Lorgar could challenge him to a briefly spar, see how Solar Hero style works on him and then offer to teach it to him
Ferus Manus
  • I'm honestly not sure, on the one hand he is likely to be quite interested in what we learned about Machine Spirits and especially in the ways they can be used to enhance the body and mind, on the other he's pretty conventional as primarchs go
  • He might just wings how Fulgrim does

Fulgrim
  • The whole 'looks like the Emperor' thing our legion has as well as being one of the more numerous legions to the Emperor's Children's least numerous is likely to rub him the wrong way
  • A peaceful planetary unification is likely to at least interest him
  • He is said to be a lover of philosophy, if from another angle to Lorgar, who knows maybe he even wants to be Enlightened, though if we cannot do it that will be another black mark in his eyes

Vulkan
  • This is one of those cases where he might love one of our Circle Mates, just not Lorgar in particular, in this case Thalassa. Vulkan probably never met anyone who could even hope to match him in the making of technological items. She is not there either... but she is probably closer than anyone he's ever likely to meet
  • We just need to hope he is open to changing his Eldar murdering ways ( think he started that already)
Rogal Dorn
  • Very little reason to like or dislike Lorgar because he is just a boring lump that way. 5/10, most mid primarch
Roboute Guilliman
  • He is just generally personable and at least a little open to even odd and unusual tactics
  • I think stealing his codex even if we do not hold to it tightly may be the best thing we could have done to endear Lorgar to him, just because as his own work it's going to look good to him
  • On the other hand he's probably one of the ones who is going to have the most doubts about Fan. He was a smooth political operator on his home planet and he can see a power behind the throne quite well
Magnus the Red
  • A natural ally, especially given that we choose to go all out on the magic, just the sheer amount of stuff we can bribe him with is staggering
  • Unlike some others on the list he is not inherently prideful, he does think he knows best and that he can control the warp, which is of course wrong, but he is not unwilling to learn from others so that he may beat them at his own magic game.
  • The thing I worry about is Tzeench being a sore loser and trying to mess with us through the agents he already has on site in the form of the daemon 'teachers'
Sanguinius
  • Bird boy is always a fan favorite and like Horus he is personable without all of his baggage
  • He has wings... which means he unlocked his Mythos super early too, Lorgar might be able to help with that and he is another one who might be able to enlighten
  • We centrainly can help with the Red Thirst, but figuring it out without getting into conflict is going to be hard
Lion El'Jonson
  • This is another one with a stick up their ass without Guilliman's redeeming quality of actual social intelligence
  • He also has daddy issues and Fan is a much better surrogate father than he got, all in all probably another one for the 'likely rivals' bucket

Perturabo
  • As others have said a ripe primarch to cultivate since he just wants (rightly or wrongly) to be seen and praised more than he is
  • Also he would probably be one of the most open to just learning to work with machine spirits as long as they give him an edge
  • On the other hand if Lorgar looks like he is stealing too much of the spotlight from him... well you get the idea. Good potential, but I think we will need some luck to stick the landing
Mortarion
  • Daddy issues
  • Hates psykers (which is funny since as a primarch he is one)
  • Is way too focused on attrition Warfare which is a shit way to fight a war if you are the guard, nevermind a space marine legion. Over all he stinks and Nurgle can have him.
Jaghatai Khan
  • Hey look, it is a version of Rus that does not feel he has to roleplay Conan and also make wolf his every third word. Everything that applis to him applied here
  • We did take those desert raider traits, we even have beasties, maybe we can bond over being a light cavalry heavy army... on the other hand maybe it will lead to rivalry
Konrad Curze
  • Is a mess... seriously this guy is not an ally, he's a project that might some day become an ally if the stars align
  • He is probably neutral on everything up to and including bespoke daemons just because of the kind of mess he is in
Angron
  • If we are on site when he is found maybe we can yoink the Nails out of him before he decides that they are part of his identity and every marine should have them
  • Otherwise how much he likes us probably correlates to how antagonistic we are to the Emperor
  • He might like Dharok, at the very least he should respect his strength and general ethos
Corvus Corax
  • If we manage to do what his future self asked us for we probably have a friend for life and the fact that he might also have the Rebel Archetype means we might also be able to pay him back in other more magical ways
  • On the other hand this is one of the people most likely to notice how unusual some of our marines are just because he is good at noticing in general

Alpharius Omegon
  • Impossible tell without meeting them, might be impossible to do even when we do meet them, but they would make a hell of an ally.
  • They may or may not be some of the most pro-xenos primarhs out there, which would be nice if we are going with that narrative, we are going to need all the help we can get in that regard
 
Last edited:
I think we need to be very careful on how we manage relations with the other Primarchs.

At the least, we want to hold a lot of things close to our chest.

On Magnus, specifically, Fan and Lorgar's own thousand special sons are capable of a form of sorcery that he simply can't match. He may either resent that or refuse to accept it and push even further beyond sensible limits. We may well need to hide our true abilities to avoid this.

Revealing the Codex after Lorgar and Fan give it a once over to add their own touches is an interesting way of enticing Guilliman.

The way I'd pitch it isn't as doctrine for the front line legions, but as doctrine for the marine forces left behind the front lines as garrisons, response forces in case of rebellion of the emergency of threats, and as training units to raise new space marines to as part of companies that can then be rotated to the front line.

These kind of units are something most of the space marine legions formed, although the Iron Warriors did more than others, and the distributed deployment doctrine of the Codex is very appropriate for them, as it's essentially the job the post-Heresy chapters used.

We may want to be careful about the section on the Librarius though, as that hasn't been established yet and won't be for many decades, so would be a really controversial innovation at this point. The advantage would be that we'd really be advancing the state of the art in terms of 'safe' psyker deployment doctrine and tactics.
 
Last edited:
Yzarc said:
I am not sure if you can make an artifact that can mass produce Rakshas. Will have to think on this, though be warned, I will probably go with, transform people artifact, like the Turn People into vampire power Holden made in ExWoD.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ah, to clarify, not an artifact. If we expended more effort to make a Noble Raksha with the listed charms, it could trivially produce Wee Folk with Way Graces. Technically Gaping Virtue Mouth (or another Raksha Birthing charm that costs XP to use) is required to make a proper Raksha, but said Wee Folk would be able to learn Perfect Reckoning Technique and Assumption of Element Form, which is what we actually want them for. It could also forge people's Perception attributes into Way Graces, allowing them to learn PFT on their own for cheaper.
 
Hm, it really is a pity that Magnus probably does not have the Holy Archetype, as it means that he cannot gain the Enlightenment Aspect.

One would like to think that Magnus is amongst the ones who can be awakened to Essence. Perhaps not all of his sons can be awakened, but there will hopefully be a decent proportion of them at the start.

It would be a question of creating a reliable, efficient means of bestowing the prerequisite merits.

There is rather great potential for lively discussion and friendly interaction between Lorgar and Magnus, especially if Lorgar gains the Philosopher Aspect. Lorgar is the philosopher to Magnus' sage. Hm, one hopes that Magnus would also take a shine to Fan Morgal. It should not be too difficult for Fan Morgal to blandish and coax Magnus.

Does anyone wish to make a wager that Sanguinius might share an Archetype with Lorgar beyond the Human one? Sanguinius might have Holy or Light like Lorgar.

It is quite a guessing game about which of the other Primarchs can be enlightened without needing to bestow the prerequisite merits upon them.
 
Last edited:
Ternasta said:
Or we just help him understand the difference between Eldar and Dark Eldar and help him wipe out all of those slave-taking sadistic scum we can find.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

To be honest, the entire sequence doesn't really make sense, given that at that point the Webway Eldar don't seem to have learned to use their psychic vampirism to replenish the energy that Slaneesh stole, indeed, according to at least one source they thought the Webway's wards protected them from the Thirst, so they hid in the Webway and don't dare to emerge.

Originally; the raiders of Vulkan's world were just unidentified Xenia, but later on, they made them Eldar, around the time the writers forgot the actual Eldar timeline and history, and just made the 30K Eldar duplicates of the 40K Eldar even though it doesn't make sense.
 
Alratan said:
Because the Eldar know how to disable their own Webway Gates. The Emperor needed to tear open his own rift into the warp and build his own tunnel front there to join up with a hole in drilled into the nearest Webway Nexus to bypass those protections.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Again your failing the basic logic test, if the Emperor planed to take over the Webway he would have started taking out the Craftworld, and maiden world Eldar in real space. Where they don't have the advantage of control over the environment, ablity to mess with your forces etc. I highly doubt the Emperor cannot make Wraithbone if he wanted to, he could have easily made Webway gates to the existing network that don't obey the Elder.

Hell the Farseers gave zero opposition to the plan on the basis it would wipe their race out.
Alratan said:
And the Emperor probably had the hubris to think he could take the proto-DE.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Nobody but the Necron Empire could hope to crack the Dark Elder. Nobody that can do basic math thinks otherwise, they have the supertech of the Elder empire that would crush the DoTA humans easily.
 
Last edited:
Alratan said:
I think we need to be very careful on how we manage relations with the other Primarchs.

At the least, we want to hold a lot of things close to our chest.

On Magnus, specifically, Fan and Lorgar's own thousand special sons are capable of a form of sorcery that he simply can't match. He may either resent that or refuse to accept it and push even further beyond sensible limits. We may well need to hide our true abilities to avoid this.

Revealing the Codex after Lorgar and Fan give it a once over to add their own touches is an interesting way of enticing Guilliman.

The way I'd pitch it isn't as doctrine for the front line legions, but as doctrine for the marine forces left behind the front lines as garrisons, response forces in case of rebellion of the emergency of threats, and as training units to raise new space marines to as part of companies that can then be rotated to the front line.

These kind of units are something most of the space marine legions formed, although the Iron Warriors did more than others, and the distributed deployment doctrine of the Codex is very appropriate for them, as it's essentially the job the post-Heresy chapters used.

We may want to be careful about the section on the Librarius though, as that hasn't been established yet and won't be for many decades, so would be a really controversial innovation at this point. The advantage would be that we'd really be advancing the state of the art in terms of 'safe' psyker deployment doctrine and tactics.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Are we sure Magnus cannot match Exalted Sorcery? I mean his whole thing is 'wizard' and somewhere deep, deep in the wiring of existence magic includes the work of the Primordials. He might be able to learn it, and even if not we have all kinds of other fun things he can learn and be better at than anyone except maybe Fan at.
 
Hm, it should not be too difficult, one would imagine, for Fan Morgal to befriend Amon and Ahzek Ahriman. If so, it should make Magnus even more positively disposed towards Fan Morgal.

Fan Morgal and Lorgar could also start building a grand library on Colchis. It would be a guaranteed way to have Magnus and his sons gushing, like bees and honey.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top