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Echoes of Creation (30k/Exalted)

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Sesparra said:
[X] Significant Deviations from the Codex

I thought the general plan was "fuck around and find out" ? Like, we're trying to be better than the crippled fascist mess the imperium is, not feed our enemies our space marine children in bite sized chunks right?
Like, looking at it, the codex is a great control method for your geneforged warrior caste, and pretty good as a how two guide of small formation campaign prosecution, but it has absolutely zero use in a combined arms approach to warfare nor does it really have anything on the dangers and uses that literally every one of our citizens knows exist in the warp? To say nothing of the fact that I'm 100% certain Lorgar and Fan would never go in for the hypno indoctrination that the codex kind of assumes was used while making the marines? I'm especially worried about how the codex was basically meant to cripple the legion's ability to use naval assets as more than floating bases and planetary assault craft.

Edit: As much as I would love our version of geneforged super soldier's weren't copied of the design of a misogynistic caveman, it would honestly be less effort and worth more in the long run if we just designed our own warrior upgrades from the ground up than try to make female space marines specifically.
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We should design enhancements for female psykers at the very least. They are too useful to not use in battle and if we are going to do that no reason not to make them more survivable.
 
Looking at a wider perspective for a moment the one thing we are missing at the moment is a good stealth character and given all the cloak and dagger stuff we are planning we're going to need one. The way I see it we have three options in that regard:
  1. Load up Fan on Ebon Dragon charms now that we have all the basics and let him handle it
  2. Get Thalassa a whole suit of stealthy gifts and Mutations to load up
  3. Find a sneak and ascend them to Circle Mate somehow
Personally I like option three, we are going to need someone who can operate far out and for long periods and we cannot afford to lose any of the present circle mates.
 
[X] Moderate Deviations from the Codex

I feel like this option just balances risks and rewards the best.

Comparing with Significant Deviations, the second best option in my opinion:

ADVANTAGES

I. Flexibility

(Moderate) Enhanced Flexibility: Provides significant flexibility to adapt to various combat scenarios unique to the Great Crusade.
Vs
(Significant) Maximum Flexibility: Allows the Legion to fully adapt its tactics, strategies, and organization to the unique needs of the Great Crusade.

Both options provide flexibility, and having absolute maximum of it does not seem that valuable

II. Specialization

(Moderate) Specialization: Allows the Legion to develop unique tactics and strategies tailored to their specific strengths and the current conflict.
Vs
(Significant) Unique Identity: Establishes a distinct identity and combat doctrine, potentially increasing effectiveness in specific theaters of war.

Again, Moderate gives the boost in this area. While not maximized, the advantages in Significant are also "potential" and not guaranteed.
The increase in advantage just does not seem That good

III. Positive impact on Space Marines' personalities

(Moderate) Morale Boost: Fosters a sense of innovation and autonomy, potentially boosting morale.
Vs
(Significant) Innovation Encouraged: Strong emphasis on innovation and creative problem-solving.

Innovation is encouraged in both options. Moderate seems good enough

IV. Final thoughts on advantages

While Significant Deviation, of course, provides better advantages, and I would choose it in absence of information on disadvantages, the benefit just does not seem to be that big.

Let's now look at the disadvantages

DISADVANTAGES

I. Inconsistency

(Moderate) Greater Inconsistency: Increased deviations may lead to significant inconsistencies in training and operations.
Vs
(Significant) High Inconsistency: Significant deviations can lead to substantial inconsistencies and potential operational chaos.

Both disadvantages are potential and not guaranteed, which leads me to believe they may be counteracted with future actions. While Significant's option does seem more severe, the difference is comparable to the Advantages difference between the options, which is not That big. If all options were like this I'd choose Significant

II. Conflict with other Legions

(Moderate) Higher Risk of Conflict: More untested and unique tactics can result in more serious conflicts with other Legions.
Vs
(Significant) Isolation: May result in the Legion being viewed with suspicion or hostility by other Legions.

One of the tie-breakers for me. The names of the options suggests that Isolation is practically guaranteed with Significant option.
While Lorgar, being a social primarch, has a good chance at mitigation social conflict, I still view this as a big problem. If we want to change the Imperium or the course of history, we would probably do that through social actions and building ties, and crippling one of such opportunities at the beginning just doesn't seem worth it to me, based on all other advantages/disadvantages. Significant Deviation just doesn't have anything that would be uniquely good and not offered in slightly lesser amount in Moderate Deviation option to push the scales here.

III. Other Challenges

(Moderate) Resource Management: Balancing resources and logistics becomes more complex with less standardized procedures.
Vs
(Significant) Discipline Challenges: Maintaining discipline and cohesion becomes more challenging without the structure provided by the Codex.

Resource problems vs Social problems. I would rather have resource problems, as I believe Significant option includes resource problems in addition to the social problems it adds. Not as great a difference between disadvantages as the previous option, but still noticeable one. Second tie-breaker for me (though to a much smaller degree than Conflict with Other Legions option)

IV. Final thought on disadvantages

Significant Deviation offers much stronger disadvantages, and the difference is much bigger then the difference it brings in advantages. While a lot of it is social in nature, and therefore far more tolerable with Lorgar's social focus, I still don't feel like Significant Deviations option brings enough to the table to justify it.
 
Leedie said:
II. Conflict with other Legions

(Moderate) Higher Risk of Conflict: More untested and unique tactics can result in more serious conflicts with other Legions.
Vs
(Significant) Isolation: May result in the Legion being viewed with suspicion or hostility by other Legions.

One of the tie-breakers for me. The names of the options suggests that Isolation is practically guaranteed with Significant option.
While Lorgar, being a social primarch, has a good chance at mitigation social conflict, I still view this as a big problem. If we want to change the Imperium or the course of history, we would probably do that through social actions and building ties, and crippling one of such opportunities at the beginning just doesn't seem worth it to me, based on all other advantages/disadvantages. Significant Deviation just doesn't have anything that would be uniquely good and not offered in slightly lesser amount in Moderate Deviation option to push the scales here.
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The problem I have with this disadvantage is we don't know it will happen and we do not know with whom. We could well convince Mortarion that Psykers are cool actually and Rus could get over himself. Sure both those things are highly unlikely, but so it meeting Setra the Imperishable and resurrecting him along with the whole planet. Any amount of restriction beyond significant feels like restraining ourselves blind. Who would be isolating us? What can do to to fix it? Maybe we build our own faction and isolate our rivals instead. There are just too many unknowns for the very clear and very much known limitations of using the socially and logistically crippling manual as more than a vague guideline.
 
Leedie said:
Isolation is practically guaranteed w
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Not guranteed per say. You can social this but there would be a CHANCE to get a "Rival" Primarch and Legion.

Someone who dislikes you. Who this will be depends on too many factors.

For the moderate and higher options, you MAY get a more friendly rivalry. Someone who dislikes things but is willing to let it go.
 
Yzarc said:
Not guranteed per say. You can social this but there would be a CHANCE to get a "Rival" Primarch and Legion.

Someone who dislikes you. Who this will be depends on too many factors.

For the moderate and higher options, you MAY get a more friendly rivalry. Someone who dislikes things but is willing to let it go.
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Appreciate the clarification

Still, the absense of that chance feels like it's really worth it to pick Moderate option
 
Yzarc said:
[] Complete Adherence to the Codex Astartes
Advantages:
  • Future-Proven Strategy: The Codex Astartes is a blueprint for future success, offering a strategic advantage.
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question on the Codex Astartes

of the tactics that were penned down, how many where the thoughts of Guilliman and how many where stuff he saw his brothers did or he observed others made work and went "oh that's smart, lets copy that (with a little brush-up to make good tactics/strategies Great)" ?

like I'm confused on how one needs have complete adherence to go "hey this part listing strategies is pretty good lets adopt this" while disregarding other parts that we don't want to remain flexible
 
*name* said:
question on the Codex Astartes

of the tactics that were penned down, how many where the thoughts of Guilliman and how many where stuff he saw his brothers did or he observed others made work and went "oh that's smart, lets copy that (with a little brush-up to make good tactics/strategies Great)" ?

like I'm confused on how one needs have complete adherence to go "hey this part listing strategies is pretty good lets adopt this" while disregarding other parts that we don't want to remain flexible
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According to lore he adopted most at least basic tactics of his brothers
 
*name* said:
like I'm confused on how one needs have complete adherence to go "hey this part listing strategies is pretty good lets adopt this" while disregarding other parts that we don't want to remain flexible
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So you have a really good book on how to train and deploy 1000 space.

But problem is it was ment for post heresay splitting of the legions.

So Dharok is attempting to adopt as much of it as he can to act as a core for the future legion, balancing current Legion tactics (that you do not have access to) with the Codex when you meet the Legion.

It is a good book, but it has problems. So complete adherance is less, lets split thd legion into chapters and more, lets try and adapt it as faithfully as possible.

The sliding scale is more conventional tactics on the higher adherance to Sorcery/Archeotech for days in the non-adherance side.

It forms a base from which you build upon. This saves you a ton of time but has complications in exchange.

Without it, you have a ton of difficulties and have to spend AP getting the Chapter and later, Legion up and running.
 
Profilozof said:
According to lore he adopted most at least basic tactics of his brothers
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so we basically have every legions tactics and strategies' in our pockets, if that's the case picking and choosing the tactics of whatever legion it originates from would mean we are less likely to be in conflict with them?

Yzarc said:
SNIP
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so what your saying is 6 months is too short of a time to adopt the codex effectively and we need to stress test the legion in fights and spend more AP to fix said flaws?
 
*name* said:
so what your saying is 6 months is too short of a time to adopt the codex effecivly and we need to stress test the legion in fights and spend more AP to fix said flaws?
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What I am saying is you need years to find sufficient doctrines for a few thousand SMs. Then years more to retrain a Legion to take advantage of all that Chochis has to offer.

The codex GREATLY reduces that time. The codex was to Guilliman what the Leto divinatus was to Lorgar (Canon).
 
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