I think you might be overstating it just a tad only a bit any institutional memory might be a thing but the AI rebellion was four and a half thousand years ago at this point I'm not even sure our planet has any widely disseminated written languages on it never mind being able to remember 4,000 years ago. If some cultures or beings like the Emperor of man like the cult mechanicus and similar were to see that we're developing robots they might have a problem but I don't think most human civilizations are going to have that problem unless they are like the Cult mechanics. The emperor man being who he is probably knows the difference between a robot and a man of iron and there was a difference. The fact that it has a machine spirit and not true artificial intelligence would probably appease any Cult mechanicus members as well as semi-autonomous vehicles and Robotics are not unknown to them either.
Echoes of Creation (30k/Exalted)
- Thread starter Yzarc
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[X] Plan Safety First, Cost Second
[X] Plan Safety First, Cost Second
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
.....this is very fair. And limiting to flesh seems arbitrary since it is a charm of a Primordial which helped create a World.
Ok so Crippling does help, but not in this case as the robot was cut in half. It can cure lost limbs and such but not "death" or entire missing half of its body.
Colchis was a high tech world. One of Earth's first colonies, so presumably one of the most developed. To this day it has a sky full of dead shipyards and the deserts are dotted with mysterious ruins. It's one of the worlds that fell from the greatest height as a result of the AI rebellion.
You'll just need to look up at night to see twinkling monuments to humanity's lost greatness and reminders of the evils of autonomous machines.
The details have probably all been lost but I'd expect the general principle to remain.
Not least as a cultural prohibition by the survivors not to try to repair any potential thinking machines and if you find an inscribe one that might wake up to destroy it with extreme prejudice.
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I mean do most people on Colchis know that? Do they even know the planet is round and the sky is not bowl held up bu the trunks of jade elephants or something? Worth keeping in mind most Colchisians are illiterate slaves with no connection to their history beside whatever the heck the Covenent teaches (which may be that AI is great and even better with daemons).
[X] Plan Safety First, Cost Second
- [X] Safety 5
- [X] Environmental Impact 5
- [X] Cost-effectiveness 5
- [X] Alternative to Exotic Components 1
-[X] Efficiency and Performance 3
- [X] Safety 5
- [X] Environmental Impact 5
- [X] Cost-effectiveness 5
- [X] Alternative to Exotic Components 1
-[X] Efficiency and Performance 3
Tbh, lets make colchis great again and restore the ruins and the world soul.So when Emp's comes knocking on our door, he sees a DAOT remnant in all its glory, led by his son, maybe one or 2 world snuffers, and we are Gucci. I mean, we can literally give ai souls and protection so why not fucking go all in?
The Mechanicum would murder us and turn our corpses into servitors whose whole purpose is to eat shit if we did that. Keep in mind that the tech-priests love technology when THEY have it, and hate it when it's "forbidden" or in the hands of hereteksTbh, lets make colchis great again and restore the ruins and the world soul.So when Emp's comes knocking on our door, he sees a DAOT remnant in all its glory, led by his son, maybe one or 2 world snuffers, and we are Gucci. I mean, we can literally give ai souls and protection so why not fucking go all in?
This is a world and society that seems engineered by the Chaos Gods as a giant trap to corrupt Lorgar. These are beings that live outside of time and can see the range of multiple possible pasts, presents, and futures.
That doesn't in any way make them unbeatable, but does mean that we should expect them to have set up the gameboard to favour them. That includes preserving the cultural prohibition against autonomous machines, so that when they send a broken robot along with the Chaos Priest's caravan to recruit Lorgar, it acts as a poison pill if he refuses to join up and instead kills the priest and takes his stuff.
Yeah, the Mechanicus is a mystery cuit which believes that knowledge of technology shouldn't be shared with the unworthy and instead restricted to initiates of the inner circles of their cult, with more important and dangerous knowledge both compartmentalised between different sub-sects and higher secrets increasingly limited to smaller and smaller inner secrets.
Fortunately, however, the Mechanicus was never powerful enough in 30K to fully enforce this. We just need to be strong enough to say no and make it stick.
That seems a weaker point, Chaos does not act in a rational manner much less a unified one in pre-heresy times. In any case even if you are right the point stands for planets that are not Colchis.
As standards of education and understanding of technology fades so would fear of thinking machines since people would not have the context to even understand what those old stories are about. Mars kept it, but that is because Mars both had remnants of said AI and they needed to keep technology around to keep breathing.
The fact that Colchis has managed to sustain a stable and functional, indeed, harmonious civilisation for centuries while being ruled by a Chaos Cult of Chaos Undivided strongly suggest to me that the Chaos Gods have managed to pull a long term plan where they keep a united front to make the planet a honey trap for Lorgar.
They've managed to keep this civilisation stable through the birth of Slaneesh and the Fall of the Eldar despite the associated battle between the Chaos Gods that happened at that point.
This is a huge achievement for them, given how hard they (or rather, the Exalted Greatee Daemons they're acting through) find such restraint and long term cooperation.
Given they've managed that much social engineering, then they could manage others. And given the robot was brought to us by Kor Phaeron, caution is required.
As for other worlds, many didn't fall as far as Colchis. It was reduced to be a feudal world, but many of the most important worlds retained significantly more technological and other knowledge. The civilized and hive worlds would have records and some degree of cultural continuity. Remember it's not just AI that were suppressed, it was autonomous machines in general, which are possible at a much lower tech level. The response was that they're should always be something biological in the control loop. I think.
It's for the same reason that humanity at large in the galaxy hated Xenos despite out of sector warp travel being mostly impossible for millennia. Because the cultural trauma was so deep that it fundamentally shaped the successor societies that have survived since the DAoT.
That's part of why I think Shaping DAoT 'survivors' is so important, as they don't have this inherited trauma.
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Yeah, many did not fall as far, but that is because there were very many in total. The median state of humanity in the galaxy right now is probably feudal since between the loss of off world trade and the man psykers it would be pretty hard to keep any sort of industry going though the collapse. In my opinion if they have any tales of the Men of Iron left are probably think they were some kind of evil warriors. Also I would caution against assuming most humans hated aliens or really knew what those were since the records we are getting those are imperials in the middle of the Great Crusade.
Yes friend of course the Tribesmen of Beta-Galbina-Seven hated foul xenos, they agreed with us right away once we pointed the holy laz riffles at them. What's that Beta Galbina Eight had humans live mostly in peace with native aliens? Never heard of them, there was no sapient life on Beta Galbina Eight.
I think this is Warhammer's roots showing. In particular it's the inspiration from Dune and the Buterlian Jihad. All autonomous and calculating machines were banned in its wake, and this was ported over.
Sure, the tech level to make AI is quite high. The tech level to make basic calculators or things like Jacquard Looms isn't anything like as high, and I think those would fall into the same prohibitions.
I'm not sure what the median tech level is. The tech level of the median world may be feudal, but I suspect the tech level of the median human is much, much higher. At least 20th century if not much higher, living in systems that may have lost warp travel but retained or regained interplanetary travel and have system scale economies and population.
Those are the key worlds for the Great Crusade. They could be systems with a hundred billion inhabitants, and economies as big as a hundred thousand feudal worlds combined.
That is fair if there are any proto-hive worlds out there they would all have strong anti-AI bias... but at the same time they can't think that Jacquard Looms and above are thinking machines since... there is no way to maintain hundreds of billions in pop without some calculating power. Mars got around it with cybernetics, but I really do not think their breed of extreme cybernetic transhumanism would have caught on independently in many corners of the galaxy.
As of right now I tentatively have two two broad strategies:
- Don't, let Lorgar do it and stay in the shadows
- Ebon Dragon Charms, they are the only things strong enough to maybe allow us to lie to his face
I think that everyone who survived to keep industrial and particularly inter-planetary travel would have kept cybernetics or bioaugments or a combination that allowed humans to replace automation. They seem like they were a very standard technology in the DAoT.
I mean, you have places like Ghenna, were every living human was in a life support pod and was the controlling mind of a million strong hive mind of bioreplicants that looked like humans but weren't. Or places that went even further into cyberisation like the Olamic Quietude who basically turned their entire adult population into full conversion cyborgs with just their eyes and central nervous system retained.
That's an extreme example, but if that kind of thing was possible then you can see how you might have a team of controllers plugged into a factor and supervising the production process with them being essential in the decking loop but most of the calculating outsourced to cybernetic or biotech processors.
You don't even need very much of the population that heavily augmented, just a few, either very well paid or compelled to take on the role.
Similarly to the latest vote in your Exalted crossover quest, if it's possible here the other good option might be to get Splintered Gale Incarnation as soon as possible and make a decoy Fan who actually is a powerful enlightened psyker-shaman with a range of powers that could have plausibly been exaggerated in the telling to justify what we did plus some Savant ratings to give credence to having DAoT knowledge.
It fits very neatly with the Ebon Dragon charms and hiding.
The best option I see is to be a multi-system polity by the time the Emperor arrives and for Lorgar to meet him in one of our outlying worlds, and for him never to come to Colchis.
I'm pretty leery about trusting the Emperor not to react to an anomaly by vivisecting it.
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what anomaly? Fan is just a genius tribal chieftain that is well versed in restoring DAoT artifacts and works with the Ad Mech.
supernatural martial arts? nah just some several millennia of evolution and refinement of the skill to beat the shit out of your enemies with your bare hands.
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It is going to be a delicate matter, this, threading the eye of the needle where the Emperor is concerned.
Hm, to borrow from Savathûn, dear schemer that she is, what would she do in Fan Morgal's place? How would she deceive and maneuver the Emperor, keep him as ignorant as possible of all these crucial details?
Hm, to borrow from Savathûn, dear schemer that she is, what would she do in Fan Morgal's place? How would she deceive and maneuver the Emperor, keep him as ignorant as possible of all these crucial details?
Your sentence cuts off abruptly here.
The problem is that the Emperor probably has good enough senses and knowledge to realise that this is bullshit if he actually meets Fan, or gets too complete an account of what he can do.
Things like Pattern Reassertion Touch and most uses of VEE can be replicated by telepaths, biomancers and technomancers, so that's explicable.
Things like using Constructive Convergence of Principles to make people or material things need things like a Pre-Fall Eldar Reality Engine to duplicate, which isn't really within what human psykers can do.
Things like having an Inner World, multiple incarnations, or your own demons are well outside what a psyker can do. They're the domain of true gods who shouldn't be able to exist outside the Warp.
And even if we hide the last: Fan is too competent. He's a threat. At least twice during the Great Crusade the Legions encountered leaders with very strong parallels to the Emperor, men who seemed to be following the same Mythos/narrative. In both cases they were killed. There may be something deeper going on in relation to that, and I don't think that the Emperor will suffer potential rivals to his narrative position gladly.
I think we need to not only hide the nature and origin of Fan's powers but also diffuse credit for his achievements. My suggestion to use CCP to create DAoT 'survivors' is part of that. They're not only a Distraction Carnifex, to use a 40K term, but they're also an excuse for Fan's knowledge and the knowledge he's granted others, and an explanation for why they can ramp up so quickly.
CMA are a harder sell, as Primarchs can't normally develop them. However, Primarchs can't normally speak Enuncia without exploding, yet Lorgar has developed a Mythos power to do so. I think we should really try to get Lorgar a Martial Artist or Sifu (martial arts teacher) Aspect to his Human Archetype, and see if that lets him develop a Mythos power to break that limitation as well.
Regardless, I think we should get Lorgar to try to develop and teach a couple of Terrestrial Martial Arts. The Emperor probably doesn't have the context to tell the difference (unless the Eldar are enlightened and can use supernatural martial arts, in this setting this may be what being a mature psychic species means and what Aspect Warriors learn). This gives credibility to the idea he invented Solar Hero.
As for how he became enlightened, we don't have to say who granted him the insight that allowed him to balance the material and the aethyrical. With Lorgars aspects, we could plausibly sell that he came up with it himself.
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They explicitly did. In the Beast novels a Harlequin tells a human that the Eldar squished lots of predecessors to humanity that challenged them for galactic dominance.