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- Derna
he came here to fight a battle i think it is a fair assumption that he is going to fight a battle
Army of Liberty: a Fantasy Revolutionary Warfare Quest
- Thread starter Photomajig
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- Fantasy Historic
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- Germany
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There is no right or wrong position for the enemy in my plan, thats why i explained all the possibilities to show that we win no matter what he does.
And please, your entire plan is 3 turns of movement and 10 turns of brace, ready fire close range after that
Red Rationalist
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So, while I appreciate the sarcasm, he literally just has to just leave the starter zone for the clock to start ticking. That is something completly different than not doing anything but sit in a corner of the map and rely on cavalry. In your position, everything is baced on one strong static defensive position, while allowing infantry to move about out of range of our artillery beyond much of the map. Yours gives infinite time, so long as the cavalry can't succesfully fall into their side.
My plan involves actual positioning, mutually supporting firing positioning and coordinating sufficient fire to massacre assaulting infantry. Your plan consists of being in a corner until the enemy shows up. I think yours would involve a few more AFK messages among the planners.
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...no? I mean, it doesn't seem bad at all. It's Horse Artillery, yes it's not going to be able to shoot the entire battlefield. But I'm not actually seeing anything dire.
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This isnt sarcasm. He can literally just put his troops behind hills and has all the time he needs, which he can use to push through the räuberwald, where he can destory us from his own strongpoint.
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The actual positioning of putting an artillery into the tower and infantry around it, the mutually supporting firing positioning of... having artillery in range of each other? and the coordinated fire of attacking the same infantry... if the enemy decides to do an utterly idiotic assault.
None of these plans are great masterplans of gigantic proportions
It cant cover the Räuberwald, which means that von Trotha can just push through it and ignore and bypass the 5th HArtillery, rendering the entire purpose of the plan moot
Red Rationalist
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Citizen, just relying on long ranged shots from a fixed position is immensely strategic inflexible. Your plan spends considerably more ammunition to erode the enemy, relies on nothing unexpected happening. One overly strong fixed position is undesirable, it limits our ability to react to anything. If our QM was enough of a sadist to slowly leapfrog artillery across the battlefield while covering them from the sides without infantry making an appearance, you would have no response option other than cavalry charges. And once those fail, you would be done.
It has the central issue of static defenses. Eventually, without any counterplay, the enemy is able to concentrate sufficient force on you. I don't expect either side to have actually play the dozens of turns and for the whole thing to stop at T60, but in a computer simulation it would be an issue.
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Aren't there literally multiple artillery pieces further south that would shoot anything coming that way?
Like honestly I hate all the plans, but I'd rather vote for the one that does something than the one that's, "Press the skip button for 10 turns, while all my enthusiasm for this Quest dies."
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-[X] Plan Fortress Rotholz:
So, voting for the plan I don't think is all that great but is better than the other one and won't make me just start tuning out the Quest, I guess??
As you can see my enthusiasm is boundless.
In theory I should come up with something of my own, but I honestly don't have the spoons.
So, voting for the plan I don't think is all that great but is better than the other one and won't make me just start tuning out the Quest, I guess??
As you can see my enthusiasm is boundless.
In theory I should come up with something of my own, but I honestly don't have the spoons.
Red Rationalist
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I think so? And even if he commits to the 20 turns treck of putting artillery there, this is a solvable issue for cavalry charges. Just once, from the right angle, destroys the artillery train.
That takes 20 turns to start shooting. I think there is a decent enough chance we could occupy the hill position before and set up supporting fire, seeing as we have open ground towards the area.
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von Trotha puts up this position and wins the battle
And so it is your position that while all of this is getting set up, we will not fire with either the 84th or 10th Artillery, nor will we do anything with our cavalry on the left, or move our cavalry from the right to the left, use them, and then send them back if we're talking about 20 turns?
I'll say this about both of y'all, both of you kinda assume that once they get set up the other guy will do absolutely nothing and just sit where you are waiting for things to happen.
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- Location
- Derna
I assume you must have responded to the objection I'm about to make at some point at some point but I don't remember seeing it - these positions fail to provide mutual support in a way that seems extremely critical. Since the Turm position is thrown so far forward, the Field Artillery only has range to hit infantry units that are directly assaulting our screening infantry. von Trotha will be free to just hold back and bombard those breastworks with his massive artillery advantage, and then we'll eventually have lost multiple fortification points and a bunch of casualties in an indecisive forward action.
Unless you want to walk the Field Arty all the way up to be level with the Turm so they can fire at the same targets as the 5th - in which case we're putting a large chunk of our army in an open plain to be slaughtered by von Trotha's guns.
I really don't understand how anything about this plan is supposed to make sense and I'm getting pretty fucking pissed that so much of the argument for it is 'you guys are boring and trying to kill the quest'.
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dear RR, spending munitions is good actually, something unexpected happening is the big problem with your plan, like the enourmous hole in your line i just discovered, your plan cannot react to anything either, if the QM tried to leapfrog his artillery across the artillery he would get absolutely fucking demolished, covering them from the sides is a stupid idea that does not work and would lose him his artillery pieces and i dont need to think about any other option except cavalry charges, because just feinting and drawing out their screening units is already enough to defeat them.
Your position is just as much of a static postion as mine, just shifted 7 tiles forward and the enemy cannot concentrate sufficient forces, because he doesnt have enough forces in the area to penetrate my static defense
The assumption is that von Trotha will grow bored and decide to attack the rotholz fortifications
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While I disagree that it is bad, it nicely illustrates what I am worried about. See below:
This is the 5th HArtillery ranges from Rotholz, yellow is medium, red is long. this is bad
View: https://imgur.com/a/XAOmJwD
@Red Rationalist , you claim that he can't set up his artillery to attack Rotholz, without exposing his screening infantry to damage. But does he really need to expose his infantry to screen his artillery, if we are not putting any pressure on him? In the map above, the red positions are potential positions for his artillery pieces. I worry he moves his artillery up like this, without exposing his inafntry or cavalry, keeping them hidden behind hills and forests. Then he just bombards us, forcing us to either get aggressive, or face a 6-1 artillery duel.
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I literally have not the least clue what plan you have for anything unexpected happening because you keep on hinting that you'd just... stay in place?
Like, you literally just fearmongered about, "What if we forget we have cavalry and artillery" in that, "This is how he'll win" setup, and it just... confuses me?
That position you set up (as the enemy's Winning Position) literally relies on the two artillery that could shoot at it doing nothing as the cavalry just sit there for a dozen turns??
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Also just in general, whether I agree with it or not, @NSchwerte , you might want to vote for your plan. You have at least one supporter, maybe/probably more, and it kinda needs to be out there so people can decide.
Red Rationalist
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So, the artillery positions are set up in such a way that any attempt to storm the fortress runs into the fire zone. I consider this supporting fire. And he could bombard these breastworks, but I don't think he's willing to spend infinite munitions of doing so. Eventually, he will have to commit to an infantry assault due to logistical considerations.
Additionally, the idea of him willing to commit munitions for -80 shots still has to be proven. Some opponents have a limit for the effects of shots they are willing to take.
On his side, I would be worried about a push from the forest into the hill range, considering the lack of cover. You really want some firepower directed there, without the cavalry just being free to climb the hill range Additionally, this particular set-up means forgoing fire for 4 turns, which might become an issue for him. It would allow 4 artillery units, at the cost of flank security.
Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
-[X] Plan Fortress Rotholz
That's a net -80 to Attack rolls. Von Trotha's Artillery park consists of 2 Experienced (1 Horse Art, +30), 1 Professional (+20), 3 Regular(+10), and 1 Trained.
This would put all of Von Trotha's artillery of having at least a 50% chance of inflicting 0 hits in their attacks, with half of them having a ~3/4ths chance of doing nothing when bombarding those positions.
If anything, Fortress Kinzberg looks like it'd be a lot more vulnerable to the artillery advantage, because the majority of our primary infantry line are in breastworks on the open plains, which is just a -40 to Ranged Attack rolls (-60 with range.) Which is still significant, but more theoretically surpasseble by sheer volume of fire and/or experienced crews.
The point is that as I understand it, the sheer amount of multipliers makes artillery fire effectively useless against troops in those positions. The breastworks provide a -40, a woods provides a -20, and Medium Range fire provides another -20 on top of that.
That's a net -80 to Attack rolls. Von Trotha's Artillery park consists of 2 Experienced (1 Horse Art, +30), 1 Professional (+20), 3 Regular(+10), and 1 Trained.
This would put all of Von Trotha's artillery of having at least a 50% chance of inflicting 0 hits in their attacks, with half of them having a ~3/4ths chance of doing nothing when bombarding those positions.
If anything, Fortress Kinzberg looks like it'd be a lot more vulnerable to the artillery advantage, because the majority of our primary infantry line are in breastworks on the open plains, which is just a -40 to Ranged Attack rolls (-60 with range.) Which is still significant, but more theoretically surpasseble by sheer volume of fire and/or experienced crews.
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That said, I do actually have another comment now that I actually dug back to look at the proposed map:
Like, @NSchwerte , you were emphasizing the importance of XP, and while I would not doubt agree with you that winning is more important than XP, it doesn't seem like any of the Infantry will get any XP (beyond 2 XP for winning the battle, which would be trivially eaten by the losses) and will instead just stand there taking casualties during the long-range bombardment? Or are you planning on moving them? Like it'd be great if you were, but you seemed kinda committed to getting everything in the perfect place and stopping.
Like, @NSchwerte , you were emphasizing the importance of XP, and while I would not doubt agree with you that winning is more important than XP, it doesn't seem like any of the Infantry will get any XP (beyond 2 XP for winning the battle, which would be trivially eaten by the losses) and will instead just stand there taking casualties during the long-range bombardment? Or are you planning on moving them? Like it'd be great if you were, but you seemed kinda committed to getting everything in the perfect place and stopping.
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Okay. The present discussion is going in circles. The way I see it, we want to occupy both forts on the flanks of the main road, one for our own firing position, the other to deny it to the enemy, with both being points we should be prepared to fall back from eventually to draw the enemy into our main line. Picking one side and ignoring the other is a bad idea because both forts can fire on the other, and he has more horse guns.
The only other option is to take neither, barricade the road with breastworks, and dare him to try an approach. ("Turtling").
Of the three options there, I think that taking Rotholz Turm as our firing position is a better choice because it has fewer incoming firing lines from the enemy side, as well as more forest cover. We need to be amenable to skirmishing and harassing enemies moving into Sarnscheid, though, which means a cavalry and/or Pathfinder push into the forests on the left side of the map. To that end, I'm voting for:
-[X] Plan Fortress Rotholz
With the expectation that we're going to be sending the halflings and the cavalry west to skirmish if Trotha aims for Sarnscheid in spite of our putting a rampart there as a spoiler (and I think he will, because one space south of the Schloss is still a decent firing position, just not quite as covered.)
The only other option is to take neither, barricade the road with breastworks, and dare him to try an approach. ("Turtling").
Of the three options there, I think that taking Rotholz Turm as our firing position is a better choice because it has fewer incoming firing lines from the enemy side, as well as more forest cover. We need to be amenable to skirmishing and harassing enemies moving into Sarnscheid, though, which means a cavalry and/or Pathfinder push into the forests on the left side of the map. To that end, I'm voting for:
-[X] Plan Fortress Rotholz
With the expectation that we're going to be sending the halflings and the cavalry west to skirmish if Trotha aims for Sarnscheid in spite of our putting a rampart there as a spoiler (and I think he will, because one space south of the Schloss is still a decent firing position, just not quite as covered.)
Hmm. I think my only real objection for @Red Rationalist plan, is that we are sending half our army into a forward position on the Eastern flank, while leaving the other half in a passive position in the center. I think this is kind of the risk @NSchwerte is also worried about here
View: https://imgur.com/a/vsXSJyG
This is the general idea, although the placement of individual units is very much subject to change based on what Von Trotha does.
Thus, I again propose that if we push, we do so on both sides of the road. That way the two parts of the army can actually support each other, and we pressure Von Trotha, forcing his infantry out of cover and thus allowing the horse artillery in Rotholtz to shine.
von Trotha puts up this position and wins the battle
View: https://imgur.com/a/vsXSJyG
This is the general idea, although the placement of individual units is very much subject to change based on what Von Trotha does.
Dutch
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I'm going to admit that I kinda zoned during most of the discussion.
But from what I can somewhat gather, everyone agrees that it'll be a long battle in which artillery is going to be vital. So my question. If we do set up our horse artillery at Rotholz, how are we going to keep it supplied with munitions? Horse artillery already has less ammo than normal artillery after all.
But from what I can somewhat gather, everyone agrees that it'll be a long battle in which artillery is going to be vital. So my question. If we do set up our horse artillery at Rotholz, how are we going to keep it supplied with munitions? Horse artillery already has less ammo than normal artillery after all.