I don't believe in the 25 turn battle at Kinzberg. RR is convinced that Von Trotha will slowly push his artillery into medium range of Kinzberg and start bombarding us, but that is a bad strategy for him, cause we can destroy his best half of tje artillwry before they even reach position
His ideal strategy is just charging at our position with a full charge, where he is at our positions at Turn 5, where he does not get slowly and invetiably attritioned down by our artillery while pushing forward, especially with the OK from photo to shoot his artillery.
Long range is minus 50 to attack, artillery attacking artillery is an additional minus 50. Furthermore, we're going to have to somehow guess where Trotha's artillery is behind his infantry, and keep guessing as he moves his artillery.
What exactly is the purpose/use of covering the area south of the Rotholz, when everything is happening north of it? We don't get a bonus for having more of the battlefield (actually we get a bonus for having less because the pursuits easier, but I don't think that should matter much).
The purpose of controlling the battlefield is control. Having places where you can avoid enemy movement and safely move your own means you don't entirely depend on the enemy, but can react to what he is doing.
How do you prevent the enemy from stalling things out and moving artillery and infantry to an area where we can't shoot them, like inside the Ottenburg-hills area?
You mean behind the Ottenburg hills? I can't. But I think it's significantly more reasonable to expect "Trotha will march 7 tiles and try to assault a fortresss" vs "Trotha will march 15 tiles into enemy territory without trying to reposition the artillery first over 20 turns or so".
But we'll, for me, I would harass him while moving through the forest, have cavalry walk through the wide open space to the left and hopefully at least here it is obvious that he cannot escape through the entire Rotholz forest, Ottenburg-hills, Koboldsforst and Gerberholz, so we would get his entire army.
Ok. What about potential horse artillery fire from Rotholz? It's not like he has to commit every artillery unit there, he can wait this out too. What happens if the infantry consistently braces, until the cavalry stops charging?
Casualties don't matter significantly during battle, cohesion does when holding a position. You can't take a position by just slowly inflicting casulties.
Long range is minus 50 to attack, artillery attacking artillery is an additional minus 50. Furthermore, we're going to have to somehow guess where Trotha's artillery is behind his infantry, and keep guessing as he moves his artillery.
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The 10th still kills 7,29 of them on average per turn while they walk and guessing where the artillery is is not very hard, considering that that artillery moves forward 1 tile at a time and only in one direction.
Ok, currently I am not quite happy with either plan. So I will present my own alternative. My plan is based on the fact that Von Trotha has a very artillery heavy army, and that he likes to use artillery to soften target. The way to beat an opponent with artillery superiority is to not give him any good targets. Thus, my plan emphasizes use of terrain and concealement, in order to provide him no targets onto which he can easily concentrate artillery.
As for Rotholtz, my plan is to have a sizable amount of troops there in the beginning, but to abandon the place completely once holding it is no longer convenient. In my opinion, Von Trotha actually does not benefit from holding Rotholtz, since the hills south of it prevents him from effectively firing on our troops from there. Below are two pictures, of the initial positions while holding Rotholtz and the fall-back positions after retreating from there. Squares are infantry, circles artillery, triangles cavalry.
The purpose of controlling the battlefield is control. Having places where you can avoid enemy movement and safely move your own means you don't entirely depend on the enemy, but can react to what he is doing.
I don't see how we're in a better position to react to von Trotha's movements fighting around Rotholz Turm. Our freedom of movement is lesser up there, not greater. If von Trotha's force is on that central plain we can move skirmishers up through the Kirschenholz to harass his artillery or use the eastern hills to shelter our cavalry for hit-and-run attacks - but the artillery positions he would have against the Turm (Sarnscheid and the road north of it) are unassailable.
You mean behind the Ottenburg hills? I can't. But I think it's significantly more reasonable to expect "Trotha will march 7 tiles and try to assault a fortresss" vs "Trotha will march 15 tiles into enemy territory without trying to reposition the artillery first over 20 turns or so".
Tbh, if your worry is just that we spend 20 turns pressing the skip turn button, I would assume that we could just automatically do that turn skipping.
Ok. What about potential horse artillery fire from Rotholz? It's not like he has to commit every artillery unit there, he can wait this out too. What happens if the infantry consistently braces, until the cavalry stops charging?
A horse artillery at Rotholz needs to be screened and that screen can get shot at, rendering the strategy of keeping his troops behind hills moot.
If the infantry consistently braces it doesn't move.
This is incredibly silly lol, a few hours ago we argued this exact thing exact the other way around, where you said that infantry couldn't move through the rough terrain west because cavalry would destroy it.
Casualties don't matter significantly during battle, cohesion does when holding a position. You can't take a position by just slowly inflicting casulties.
Yes you can, if you want to grind them down they matter quite a bit. But once again, I don't believe in all these theories of long range bombardment exchanges, even if I believe he would win them at Rotholz I don't think he would do them
Ok, currently I am not quite happy with either plan. So I will present my own alternative. My plan is based on the fact that Von Trotha has a very artillery heavy army, and that he likes to use artillery to soften target. The way to beat an opponent with artillery superiority is to not give him any good targets. Thus, my plan emphasizes use of terrain and concealement, in order to provide him no targets onto which he can easily concentrate artillery.
As for Rotholtz, my plan is to have a sizable amount of troops there in the beginning, but to abandon the place completely once holding it is no longer convenient. In my opinion, Von Trotha actually does not benefit from holding Rotholtz, since the hills south of it prevents him from effectively firing on our troops from there. Below are two pictures, of the initial positions while holding Rotholtz and the fall-back positions after retreating from there. Squares are infantry, circles artillery, triangles cavalry.
This is incredibly silly lol, a few hours ago we argued this exact thing exact the other way around, where you said that infantry couldn't move through the rough terrain west because cavalry would destroy it.
That was the western flank. There is a difference between eastern and western flank, namely the hill range. The western range lacks full hill protection, while the east is almost completely enclosed.
I don't see how we're in a better position to react to von Trotha's movements fighting around Rotholz Turm. Our freedom of movement is lesser up there, not greater
Ok, how does this work? If we control Rotholz, we have more of the eastern basin under control, while also denying free movement to the middle of the map. We are freer to move over the map.
If von Trotha's force is on that central plain we can move skirmishers up through the Kirschenholz to harass his artillery or use the eastern hills to shelter our cavalry for hit-and-run attacks - but the artillery positions he would have against the Turm (Sarnscheid and the road north of it) are unassailable.
As for Rotholtz, my plan is to have a sizable amount of troops there in the beginning, but to abandon the place completely once holding it is no longer convenient. In my opinion, Von Trotha actually does not benefit from holding Rotholtz, since the hills south of it prevents him from effectively firing on our troops from there. Below are two pictures, of the initial positions while holding Rotholtz and the fall-back positions after retreating from there. Squares are infantry, circles artillery, triangles cavalry.
This sort of compromise plan takes combines 2 incompatible elements. So, in order to secure rotholz, you need to place infantry north of it to block cavalry, otherwise our irreplacable horse artillery dies. This means you open those up for bombardment. Avoiding bombardment altogether is an unachievable goal if you want to move.
Which tiles, specifically, shooting from where? I tried to place as many units behind hills, where his artillery simply cannot shoot. The positions in the West, for example, are quite protected.
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The 10th still kills 7,29 of them on average per turn while they walk and guessing where the artillery is is not very hard, considering that that artillery moves forward 1 tile at a time and only in one direction.
them going sw or se doesnt matter, because they would have multiple artillery moving in parralel. if the move east and west we just hit their infantry without them moving forward, which is just good for us, cause we get a free extra turn
It's not necessarily relevant to the positioning discussion but Von Trotha has seven artillery regiments now. He formed that provisional unit with the offensive genius during the march.
Which tiles, specifically, shooting from where? I tried to place as many units behind hills, where his artillery simply cannot shoot. The positions in the West, for example, are quite protected.
Though more pressing, did you mix up positioning in the west? you have two artillery just open for a cavalry charge.
And generally, the west seems to be a big weakpoint where von Trotha can focus to destroy 1 side of our army, with the Kirschenholz offering cover and the artillery being unable to support once safe behind infantry
-[X] Plan Fortress Rotholz:
-[X] Defenses: Rampart E Of Sarnscheid [blocks substantial parts of the enemy firing line, with everything south of Sarnscheid being unable to shoot at the cavalry]
-[X] Defenses: Breastwork W of Rotholz Turm
-[X] Defenses: Breastwork: NW of Rotholz Turm
-[X] Deployment: Image attached
-[X] Midgame Positions
-[X] 108th Elv: NE & NW of Kinzberg "north-middle"
-[X] 13th Hob Lanc.: NW of Kinzberg, W of 108th
-[X] 55th Elv Hsr: adjacent to 108th Elv. Hsr & 13th Hob Lanc
-[X] 5th Horse Art: adjacent to 5th 55th Elv, 13th Hob Lanc
-[X] 200th Hob: E of 5th Hob. H. Art
-[X] 148th Inf: SE of 5th Hob. H. Art.
-[X] 72nd Inf: W of 148th Inf
-[X] 19th Half Pfd: adjacent to 200th, 72nd
-[X] 251st Hob: Sw of 72nd
-[X] 42nd Elv: adjacent to 148th, 251st
-[X] 10th Hum Art: adjacent to 55th Elv Hsr, 108th Elv. Hsr
-[X] HQ: W of 10th Hum Art.
-[X] 84th Elv. Art: W of HQ
-[X] 16th Half Pfd: W of 84th
-[X] 45th Elv: W of 16th
-[X] 28th Half Pfd: adjacent to 84th, 16th Half
-[X] 31st Art: E of 19th Half. Pfd
-[X] Allied Cavalry: Deploy at the eastern edge of the map
This plan relies on creating 2 lines of fire, utilizing the forward position around Rotholz to control the central corridor. For this, I've divided available units into 4 groups:
2nd Line consisting of 2 Artillery, 2 Halfling Inf, 1 Elven Inf.: The artillery will march one field north, with the infantry forming cover for them. These 2 units can fire at most of the available corridor.
The cavalry group: They will be tasked with securing Rotholz on Turn 1, before enemy artillery is properly set up. Forward Recon will allow us a better picture of the battlespace, while their centre position keeps them flexible for deployment towards weakpoints or flanks.
Fortress line: Infantry + Horse Artillery. Includes the 200th and 251st for damage, the 19th due to their rapid trait allowing them to pull of continuous ambushes in the forests without facing enemy melee and the 42nd as a munition carrier in the back. I will divert them some time later.
The support group. The 31st Elv. Art. thanks to their logistician trait, with allied hussars. The latter will be tasked with securing any potential approaches near the flanks, with the 31st operating as fire support should the enemy try to storm Rotholz from the woods.
This position sets up effective control of our part of the corridor, allowing us to counter both a frontal assault and a assault from the Rotholz via superior firepower. It also opens up offensive operations during the counterattack + pursuit, should the need arise rather than hoping the enemy comes close enough for us. In essence, this plan relies on the straightforward combination of a forward position and plentiful artillery support at the sides, rather than stationary defense in our deployment zone.
-[] Exact Deployment: 108th Elv: NE & NW of Kinzberg "north-middle"
-[] 13th Hob Lanc.: NW of Kinzberg, W of 108th
-[] 55th Elv Hsr: adjacent to 108th Elv. Hsr & 13th Hob Lanc
-[] 5th Horse Art: adjacent to 5th 55th Elv, 13th Hob Lanc
-[] 200th Hob: E of 5th Hob. H. Art
-[] 148th Inf: SE of 5th Hob. H. Art.
-[] 72nd Inf: W of 148th Inf
-[] 19th Half Pfd: adjacent to 200th, 72nd
-[] 251st Hob: Sw of 72nd
-[] 42nd Elv: adjacent to 148th, 251st
-[] 10th Hum Art: adjacent to 55th Elv Hsr, 108th Elv. Hsr
-[] HQ: W of 10th Hum Art.
-[] 84th Elv. Art: W of HQ
-[] 16th Half Pfd: W of 84th
-[] 45th Elv: W of 16th
-[] 28th Half Pfd: adjacent to 84th, 16th Half
-[] 31st Art: E of 19th Half. Pfd
-[] Allied Cavalry: Deploy at the eastern edge of the map
That was the western flank. There is a difference between eastern and western flank, namely the hill range. The western range lacks full hill protection, while the east is almost completely enclosed.
Tbh the exact fight around the rotholz corridor would be very up to how everything is arranged. We probably can hit some of his stuff on the way, maybe even push the HArtillery forward for a bit to hit him while walking through the Rotholz, but its all complex tactical movement that would need to be done turn by turn.
But even if we do not do anything to him during his movment and he attacks us from the hills, we will obviously still win, with our troops in breast work cover and his not and I think the fact that we would capture his entire army there is a lot by itself isnt it?
I know you are skeptical of capturing his army when he is on the plain, but if his army is nestled south of the Rotholz there is not good way for him to escape - cavalry is trapped by muiltiple forest tiles, infantry is slowed down by the forest too, all the while our army can stroll along the road and welcome the fleeing regiments stumbling out of the rotholz.
In essence, this plan relies on the straightforward combination of a forward position and plentiful artillery support at the sides, rather than stationary defense in our deployment zone.
I disagree with the characterisation of "plentiful artillery support, we will have the 5th and the 31st to fight back against his Rotholz attack, with the 5th firing at -70 and the 5th only being able to hit at net 0 until the enemy is at close range.
But even if we do not do anything to him during his movment and he attacks us from the hills, we will obviously still win, with our troops in breast work cover and his not and I think the fact that we would capture his entire army there is a lot by itself isnt it?
You keep calling the capture of the entire enemy army a fact. I call it an assumptions that is only supported by a drawn arrow for the cavalry falling into their behind as the enemies follows your exact plan in a picture. A plan that requires Trotha to authorize an infantry offensive without fire support onto Klinzberg. I think this supposed fact is unlikely.
I know you are skeptical of capturing his army when he is on the plain, but if his army is nestled south of the Rotholz there is not good way for him to escape - cavalry is trapped by muiltiple forest tiles, infantry is slowed down by the forest too, all the while our army can stroll along the road and welcome the fleeing regiments stumbling out of the rotholz.
You assume an efffective cavalry pursuit into the Rotholz is necessarily possible. I don't, especially if a force entrenches. If the retreat is orderly enough, a sizeable portion of the enemy army can escape.
I disagree with the characterisation of "plentiful artillery support, we will have the 5th and the 31st to fight back against his Rotholz attack, with the 5th firing at -70 and the 5th only being able to hit at net 0 until the enemy is at close range.
The 5th isn't firing at -70. There are tiles with -30 due to forest and -20 for medium range, but this amounts to a -20. If we saved our fire against the infantry until they are closer, it's a flat roll. If you mean the 31st would fire at a -70, that is also incorrect. The roll against the forest is -40 (-30 -20+10 = -40). Not great, but enough to have fire superiority if the fight drags on.
How does the plan support offensive operations? It open the door to the capture of Sarnscheid with the 5th, allowing us to potentially push trough either of the flanks onto the enemy artillery.
You keep calling the capture of the entire enemy army a fact. I call it an assumptions that is only supported by a drawn arrow for the cavalry falling into their behind as the enemies follows your exact plan in a picture. A plan that requires Trotha to authorize an infantry offensive without fire support onto Klinzberg. I think this supposed fact is unlikely.
I am saying that if von Trotha decides to move his army through the Rotholz and into the eastern hills, we can obviously capture his entire army, because his fleeing units need to flee.
Let me list them. His army, on the Rotholz hills need to flee throught:
- the Rotholz, 2-3 tiles of forest
- the Ottenburg mountains, 1 tile of hills
- the Koboldsforst, 2 tiles of forest/hills
- the Gerberholz, 2 tiles of forest
on the other hand, our cavalry would be totally free to walk north on the left side of the battle, seeing as he is moving his army on the right side of the battle and could easily reach the Gerberholz before von Trothas army.
You assume an efffective cavalry pursuit into the Rotholz is necessarily possible. I don't, especially if a force entrenches. If the retreat is orderly enough, a sizeable portion of the enemy army can escape.
The 5th isn't firing at -70. There are tiles with -30 due to forest and -20 for medium range, but this amounts to a -20. If we saved our fire against the infantry until they are closer, it's a flat roll. If you mean the 31st would fire at a -70, that is also incorrect. The roll against the forest is -40 (-30 -20+10 = -40). Not great, but enough to have fire superiority if the fight drags on.
You are correct, i didnt see that the 31st has medium range into the Rotholz. So they would deal 0,84 cohesion damage per turn against the attacking enemies.
How does the plan support offensive operations? It open the door to the capture of Sarnscheid with the 5th, allowing us to potentially push trough either of the flanks onto the enemy artillery.
Though more pressing, did you mix up positioning in the west? you have two artillery just open for a cavalry charge.
And generally, the west seems to be a big weakpoint where von Trotha can focus to destroy 1 side of our army, with the Kirschenholz offering cover and the artillery being unable to support once safe behind infantry
Hmm, I disagree with the west being a weakpoint, since without support from his artillery, Von Trotha's infantry will struggle to beat ours. The West is an excellent position for defending, since the hills and forest really limits what he can do with his artillery there. Also, our artillery in the East can fire on any enemy push in the West.
However, based on this feedback, this is now the updated version of the plan:
As before, the plan involves hiding much of our troops behind terrain, where they cannot be targeted easily. Triangles are wolf holes, red circles breastworks.
The western troops are hidden behind the forest, and cannot be targeted by artillery unless 'Von Trotha sends troops through the forest to spot them. A big enemy push in the West can be met by a push in the East, taking Rotholz and threatening his artillery backline. In a similar manner, a concentrated push in the East can be met by us counter-attacking in the West. Taking Rotholz does not really accomplish much for him, since we have fortified positions south of it, in hilly terrain that cannot be well targeted by artillery. All our cavalry is hidden, allowing us nasty surprise charges if he is not careful.
The western troops are hidden behind the forest, and cannot be targeted by artillery unless 'Von Trotha sends troops through the forest to spot them. A big enemy push in the West can be met by a push in the East, taking Rotholz and threatening his artillery backline. In a similar manner, a concentrated push in the East can be met by us counter-attacking in the West. Taking Rotholz does not really accomplish much for him, since we have fortified positions south of it, in hilly terrain that cannot be well targeted by artillery. All our cavalry is hidden, allowing us nasty surprise charges if he is not careful.
So your plan is to divide forces and artillery along both sides of the map, while taking up positions expose our own artillery to charges? I would say grouping the artillery together makes more sense, since that allows them to pool their damage against a cavalry charge.
Hmm, I disagree with the west being a weakpoint, since without support from his artillery, Von Trotha's infantry will struggle to beat ours. The West is an excellent position for defending, since the hills and forest really limits what he can do with his artillery there. Also, our artillery in the East can fire on any enemy push in the West.
However, based on this feedback, this is now the updated version of the plan:
As before, the plan involves hiding much of our troops behind terrain, where they cannot be targeted easily. Triangles are wolf holes, red circles breastworks.
The western troops are hidden behind the forest, and cannot be targeted by artillery unless 'Von Trotha sends troops through the forest to spot them. A big enemy push in the West can be met by a push in the East, taking Rotholz and threatening his artillery backline. In a similar manner, a concentrated push in the East can be met by us counter-attacking in the West. Taking Rotholz does not really accomplish much for him, since we have fortified positions south of it, in hilly terrain that cannot be well targeted by artillery. All our cavalry is hidden, allowing us nasty surprise charges if he is not careful.
The westernmost infantry can be hit by artillery W and SW of schloss Sarnscheid for -20 attacks.
Generally the west is even weaker now. von Trothas charging infantry will be in forest cover, while our own infantry is completely open or in -10 melee cover breastworks
So your plan is to divide forces and artillery along both sides of the map, while taking up positions expose our own artillery to charges? I would say grouping the artillery together makes more sense, since that allows them to pool their damage against a cavalry charge.
Where do you see that our cavalry is exposed? They are supported by infantry, behind wolf holes and our cavalry is placed nearby, allowing them to screen by Ready Charging.
The westernmost infantry can be hit by artillery W and SW of schloss Sarnscheid for -20 attacks.
Generally the west is even weaker now. von Trothas charging infantry will be in forest cover, while our own infantry is completely open or in -10 melee cover breastworks
The westernmost infantry can not be seen, and thus not targeted by Von Trotha until he sends his own units into the forest. While he does that, we can soften them up with our artillery and manouver to meet the attack. Does he even have enough infantry to stop our conter-charge in the East, if he commits his infantry to the West?
Do you think the plan could work if the infantry in the West was either placed in the forest, or pulled back to the hills completely?
Alright, with some feedback my second version of Fortress Kinzberg,
Moving forward the 5th HArtillery isnt greatly viable, because by the time we reach the Rotholz turm the enemy will be on us fighting for it and without any fortifications thats a big waste and standing in the middle of the plains is dangerous with enemy cavalry and not really that useful cause the 5th needs to spend time moving back into position once threathened and the biggest enemy threath is an immedeate charge at us.
The way forward depends on what the enemy does:
if von Trotha decidedes to slowly crawl his artillery forward in the middle corridor, we shell him the entire way, threathen and skirmish with cavalry and once he reaches medium range he will realise that he is shooting at -60 while his own units are exposed at -20. Once he breaks we crash upon him with cavalry, which pick off the weakened enemy units the whole long way back north.
If he decides to charge forward now, we arrest his charge at our fortifications, while the cavalry flanks east and west with the plan of picking off his artillery or capturing the charging unit when fleeing, as the situation shows.
If he decides to bombard us from long range, we bombard him back and are way better at it, because we have super good cover and he has none.
If he sneaks in through the rotholz, we skirmish with cavalry, possibly move our HArtilllery to get some shots off and once he reaches south we move our cavalry left of the battlefield north, capturing everything he has once he is forced to flee.
If he doesnt do anything we dont do anything, wait for the 6th and destroy him with the reinforcements
Any other approaches you think may be a problem or other threaths i havent seen or generally other feedback?
The westernmost infantry can not be seen, and thus not targeted by Von Trotha until he sends his own units into the forest. While he does that, we can soften them up with our artillery and manouver to meet the attack. Does he even have enough infantry to stop our conter-charge in the East, if he commits his infantry to the West?
Do you think the plan could work if the infantry in the West was either placed in the forest, or pulled back to the hills completely?
Where do you see that our cavalry is exposed? They are supported by infantry, behind wolf holes and our cavalry is placed nearby, allowing them to screen by Ready Charging.
Right, except that wolf holes deal 1d100-Spotting. Meaning that the ordinary elven hussar takes a 1d100-20 from wolf holes in open terrain. The cover isn't all that great. If the enemy actually commits to a charge, there is a decent chance the artillery dies.
