I am sorry but I am genuinely confused. Wasn't the question "How true Faith works on the Warp?"
Your definition seem paradox to me. There are few law that apply to warp

1. Warp is reflection of real world and All are linked to warp other than blanks.

2. FAITH = Power

3. If we focus Faith on a concept or spiritual entity it becomes powerful. More Faith it gets more powerful it becomes.

Before going to next part I want to know do you accept those law in this quest or not?
 
Your definition seem paradox to me. There are few law that apply to warp

1. Warp is reflection of real world and All are linked to warp other than blanks.

2. FAITH = Power

3. If we focus Faith on a concept or spiritual entity it becomes powerful. More Faith it gets more powerful it becomes.

Before going to next part I want to know do you accept those law in this quest or not?
Oh okay. True Faith isn't regular faith/prayer/Worship. It is a deeply personal phenomenon that relates to having faith (Complete trust or confidence in someone or something) that Faith does not have to be in a God or a deity or anything other than yourself really it can be as simple as Things are going to be okay I will make sure of it fully believing that as a truth and knowing and pursuing actions to make that a truth would be enough to solidify True Faith.

To put it another way True Faith is a phenomenon, An action a lifestyle.

While regular faith is just a belief in the religion or anything like that it doesn't require any particular understanding or actions really it just is.
 
1. Warp is reflection of real world and All are linked to warp other than blanks.
2. FAITH = Power
3. If we focus Faith on a concept or spiritual entity it becomes powerful. More Faith it gets more powerful it becomes.
Yes, but to clarify, there is only so much faith a person has and if you believe something, it is not possible for that individual produce more faith power by believing it extra hard. This is why the Chaos Gods demand so many sacrifices. It is not enough that people believe, but perform acts that resonate with the said beliefs.

True faith is not more power, or not just more power, it is a deep understanding of faith to the point that you can warp reality/perform miracles. It is also explicitly an internal thing and does not rely on any external powers. True faith is not just believing it, but also the ability to make use of that belief. A good comparison is the Adeptus Sororitas and the Living Saints vs everyone else.

Why are the Adeptus Sororitas the only one who can use faith based powers in 40k? When Joe the Guardsman believed in the Emperor as much as the Nun in Power Armor? Because True Faith is an innate quality that not a lot of people have. It is the same reason why Living Saints are so rare.

Take Celestine for example. When the Necron Pylons on Cadia activated, all Demons and Spirits, both Chaos and the Legion of the Damned of the Emperor for Banished. But Celestine? She lost a chunk of her power but was still there.

So while True Faith does interact with the Warp, it is an adjacent things to regular beliefs that reflect in the warp.
 
I am not going to object that true faith is a personal quest and a singular person no matter how exceptional only produce a finite amount of Power thus more or less minimum changes in warp.

However my point is when a prophet or sage develop his concept of true faith his or she more or less construct his or her Creed or dogma or philosophy. I am willing to accept that as byproduct of true Faith. However what happens if others put their Faith on that? Will such worship considered true faith as well? Will there be effect on Warp now that more than one reinforcing that Creed? Plus Sons of Primarchs more or less follow their father's philosophy does that mean Lorgar's Creed passively reinforced by others?

One example I want to give regarding canon religion founders. Their quest is more or less self discovery towards truth. They based their Creed on their insights or bias however their deciplies put their Faith on founders insights and teaching. They either zealously follow Creed(Abrahamic religions) or use philosophy or at least principles or terms for self cultivations(dharmic religions). Both cases worshippers putting faith into the Creed of founder and thus putting faith on concept or source that founder consider object as true faith. Does it not impact such concept or ideology in warp due to influx of other who put their Faith on same source?
 
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However what happens if others put their Faith on that?
The same thing that happens if they put their faith in regular things. Ture Faith starts and ends with the Individual. If others worship it, it will not be considered as true faith.

See Fan Morgal's explanation to Lorgar. Faith is inherently personal and True Faith more so. If people blindly put their faith in someting, that does not make it true. Then comes the next part. True Faith is inheriently internal. It does not draw power from External Sources. Not naturally and not by itself. There are ways to harness Faith energy. The Chaos Gods do, the Emperor probably does and in 40k Some factions do. But that is a separate thing.

With regards to impact on the Warp, yes, a new God may or may not emerge but that happening will NOT effect the Guy with True Faith because fundamentally, his truth is DIFFERENT from what the others believe and different from the God formed.

That was why I said that True Faith does not effect the Warp any more than Regular Faith does. It does not provide any more power than regular faith does and other people believing in it does not effect the individual with True Faith.
 
I personally consider true Faith is reaching a conceptual ideal or endpoint. One can start the path but others when put their Faith on such Creed or path it is reinforced further for Successors. Still I am fine with your interpretation as well. I think my understanding of it close to Emperor's Golden path or dune's Secher Nbiw concept.
 
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Hm, well, stealth is really more Corax and Curze's specialty, but Lorgar might be able to hold his own in places of desolation.

Transcendent Desert Creature is rather unusual and unique even for a Primarch.

As Fan Morgal continues gaining more charms, who knows how many of them will be incorporated by Lorgar?

Lorgar will be a fascinating subject for observation when Magnus meets him.

Unsurprisingly, social skills and attributes take priority for Lorgar. It is to be hoped that Fan Morgal learns Dreaming Pearl Courtesan Style and teaches it to Lorgar, assuming that Lorgar can learn Celestial Martial Arts. That style is perfect for him.

Combined with also learning Violet Bier of Sorrows Style, hm, Lorgar would seem very odd to the other Primarchs.
 
Hm, well, stealth is really more Corax and Curze's specialty, but Lorgar might be able to hold his own in places of desolation.

Transcendent Desert Creature is rather unusual and unique even for a Primarch.

As Fan Morgal continues gaining more charms, who knows how many of them will be incorporated by Lorgar?

Lorgar will be a fascinating subject for observation when Magnus meets him.

Unsurprisingly, social skills and attributes take priority for Lorgar. It is to be hoped that Fan Morgal learns Dreaming Pearl Courtesan Style and teaches it to Lorgar, assuming that Lorgar can learn Celestial Martial Arts. That style is perfect for him.

Combined with also learning Violet Bier of Sorrows Style, hm, Lorgar would seem very odd to the other Primarchs.

Keep in mind outer space is a Place of Desolation which means Lorgar can walk around in hard vacuum without a suit right now, that is going to raise a few more eyebrows than the stealth at least initially.
 
I personally consider true Faith is reaching a conceptual ideal or endpoint. One can start the path but others when put their Faith on such Creed or path it is reinforced further for Successors. Still I am fine with your interpretation as well. I think my understanding of it close to Emperor's Golden path or dune's Secher Nbiw concept.
I feel like there might be a disconnect here and if there isn't my bad.
But True Faith is a mechanical phenomenon it is not quantitatively different than regular true faith it is qualitatively different in how it affects a specific character but an example a character let's say John is a devout follower of the emperor he possesses a true faith in his word his message and his actions he does not possess True Faith the mechanical phenomenon they are distinct things, sister Artemisia of Our Order of The Martyred Lady is similarly devout possessing both true faith and True Faith.
 
...Man, his legion is gonna have a bunch of people with True Faith. Sneaky Space Paladins? Fun.
No one expects the Inquisition.
As Fan Morgal continues gaining more charms, who knows how many of them will be incorporated by Lorgar?
No more charms. Strictly speaking, it was his Mythos adapting to the Endless Desert and TDC just happened to also be a mutation that breeds true.

His Mythos has finished adapting and he wont be gaining anything else. Especially after Stable Genetics.
Keep in mind outer space is a Place of Desolation
As is the Warp. It won't help with Shaping attacks but as a Primarch, he has it covered.
 
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To be clear his marines do not have shaping defenses only Lorgar by Virtue of being a Primarch.

True, they would have to find some other way to resist the corruption (magic or faith based), but then again most Grey Knights can't survive extended warp walking inherently either. With enough training they might be able to get TDC to good enough and faith high enough that they could survive a short jaunt though, which is more than most legions can say.
 
Votes as they stand. It is getting late so I will be offline.

The votes will remain open till tomorrow evening.
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Apr 21, 2024 at 2:13 PM, finished with 76 posts and 17 votes.

  • [X] Look beyond the obvious and discern a deeper meaning.
    [X] Remember the lessons of the past; apply them to the future.
    [X] Be consistent in your rewards and punishments.
    [X] Seek out the brightest embers and feed them until they become bonfires.
    [X] Give freely of your knowledge, but wrap it up like a precious gift.
    [X] Ride the demon, do not let it ride you.
    [X] Your rage must be cold, it must be reasoned and it must be legendary.
    [X] Write in: The UN Declaration of Humans Rights:- There is a ancient documents. A holy relic ancient when the men of stones were but dust in the wind. This document is a declaration, to the world and the universe. From the ancients of holy terra, declaring the inherent worth of every individual humans and a set of fundamental rights thay arise from the inherent worth of each individual. Fan morgal struggles with these inalienable rights, his world is harsh and forces great compromises. But deep in the depth of his hearts he belives in the fundamental human rights, and he wishes to impart that same belife into his son.
    [X] Write in: Choice. Choices are what makes us what we are. Sometimes,the choices you have,and give others, are very limited. But we have to strive to give people opportunities to help themselves. To become better. To thrive.
    [X] Attune yourself to life in all its forms.
    [X] Give when generosity is needed; take when theft is required.
    [X] Will is the measure of all things, those whose heart burns with its terrible heat can do anything.
    [X] Living is an excercise in violence; violence is the act of imposing one will upon the world. Reach the heaven through violence
    [X] He who followed his own path inevitably craved it into the world.
    [X] Build your sense of self akin to a tower invincible and impenetrable. Once you have built your tower, you must deconstruct it, brick by brick, stone by stone. You must do it meticulously and carefully, so that while you leave no physical trace of it remaining, your tower is still built in your mind and your heart, ready to spring anew at a moment's notice.
    [X] Men must stand up for what they believe in. One cannot simply mouth their agreement and do nothing but watch. instead one must toil for its success, bleed in its defense, and be ready to give one life should one deem it necessary.
    [X] People should be treated with a base level of dignity.
    [X] Write in: the Necessity of EVIL (stolen/paraphrased from THIS Video)
    -[X] Write in: without violence, "evil" or conflict, society would not progress only an unattainable ideal, growing stagnant till collapse; too much violence is bad but its a facet of life, those that aren't prepared to face it will fall to it. look inwards to understand, then express it in humane ways (arts, debates and discussions, etc.)
    --[X] Write in: Nature isn't a kind parent, by its principles one must die to sustain another by acquiring limited resources via an advantage it has over other; society is an agreement to not live nature so arguments justified by "its nature" are in bad faith, we shifted from enacting every evil to debates to which ones are discarded and what should be kept
    --[X] Write in: laws don't protect, but the law is protected; a better, ideal world is something humans seek since their inception, we sacrificed our freedoms to achieve it; these hopes and dreams form society and law. sacrificing our limitless possibilities to guarantee our ideal future.
    -[X] Write in: violent is commercialized, when words don't work its easy to express negative emotions, via the abundance tools that magnify a small spark into a deadly wildfire, one doesn't have to be strong but acquire a weapon.
    --[X] Write In: fear of a costly victory controls and limits violence, if one side is stronger there not incentive to not attack another and profit from conflict (TLDR, M.A.D prevents conflict)
    --[X] Write In: if EVIL exist and people profit, why not have those Profits be in better hands? if one commits EVIL, can we use the benefits to help miniate, regulate the Evils of Man? Is it better to have large scale, desensitized violence or small scale, visceral conflicts? we might not be able to stop a brother killing brother but we can stop entire tribes and cultures, societies from wiping themselves and others out. Create whatever good you can from necessary Evil and prevent the worse from happening.
    -[X] Write In: violence and evil itself is simple, but the causes are complex; its why violent is a guarantee, the simplicity of death gets rid of the complex, chaotic factor known as other human beings, less emotions means less conflicts to have a manageable system
    --[X] Write In: this creates a world of basic people with basic desires, that cannot fend for themselves and must take from the hard work of others that creates great human creations, from arts, sciences , philosophy, etc. this ruins the Great works of humanity; others will watch you gather great wealth and have every need taken care of, and are incentivized to follow this simple path of violence but just as you can gain much, you can also be reduced to nothing, violence is indiscriminate and can be used against you.
    --[X] Write In: to choose a peaceful life is to struggle against not only those who attack you, but Nature where our needs can only be acquired via hard word instead of stealing, the complexity required to survive is constant. Peace is a respect for what life truly is, to struggle and overcome odds the strongest can walk past and create something even greater than they ever could, were Violence has Highs and Lows, Peace is a harder fight that never ends, one that lasts a lifetime; a lifetime is what's needed to impart good values but its a lifetime outside forces can impart bad values, its this fight that imparts any value into humans, its how we create society, civilization, art, culture, etc.
 
[X] Be consistent in your rewards and punishments.

[X] Look beyond the obvious and discern a deeper meaning.

[X] Remember the lessons of the past; apply them to the future.


[X] Ride the demon, do not let it ride you

[X] Your rage must be cold, it must be reasoned and it must be legendary.
 
[x] Be consistent in your rewards and punishments.
[x] Look beyond the obvious and discern a deeper meaning.
[x] Ride the demon, do not let it ride you.
[x] Give freely of your knowledge, but wrap it up like a precious gift.
[x] Remember the lessons of the past; apply them to the future.
 
Ah, pity indeed that Lorgar cannot be taken here on the same journey that Azem and the others undertook upon that distant star of Etheirys, 10 years culminating in their voyage to the very edge of the cosmos and reaching Ultima Thule.

So many lessons, especially pertaining to the questions that Lorgar asks. As Y'shtola said, "Truth is given shape in interpretation. When we seek to capture it with our words, it is invariably molded to fit a narrative - no matter how well intentioned the rendering."

There, at Ultima Thule, the chorus of dearest Meteion and her sisters gathered the sorrow of countless stars and extinct species and cultures, concentrated, negatively-aspected dynamis, chanting their requiem for all creation, asserting that true salvation lies not in dying but in never being born.

The sorrow of a thousand, thousand worlds weighed heavy, and yet, Azem could walk on. He had to walk on until the end, with no time for mourning, walking alone unto journey's end, the burden weighing heavy. Tales of loss and fire and faith. It is exactly the sort of trial and journey needed to temper Lorgar.

If Lorgar ever reaches the point where he can understand and appreciate the meanings of these 2 songs, then one thinks he will have matured very well indeed:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LsB68lOoMM


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvgB0ZaOhaQ
 
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No more charms. Strictly speaking, it was his Mythos adapting to the Endless Desert and TDC just happened to also be a mutation that breeds true.

His Mythos has finished adapting and he wont be gaining anything else. Especially after Stable Genetics.
Hm, might have been nice to give him Ego Infused Pattern Primacy. Maybe once we learn Pattern-Reassertion Touch we can use Sorcery to more permanently imbue him (and hopefully his geneline) with it.
 
BTW, considering Mortarion's relationship with his adopted family on Barbarus, he prolly gonna hate Lorgar extra-super hard in this timeline.

The whole thing is like "What if everything was exactly the same, but my dad was actually a good guy."
 
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so its unlikely that my write in will make top 5, so am going to ask how would have it affect lorgar's beliefs if it won?
Haven't adapted it yet so I honestly do not know. I make multiple drafts and revisions before finalising them, so I can't say one way or another. As for how Lorgar would react? That is depending on the rolls.
 
BTW, considering Mortarion's relationship with his adopted family on Barbarus, he prolly gonna hate Lorgar extra-super hard in this timeline.

The whole thing is like "What if everything was exactly the same, but my dad was actually a good guy."

I mean to be fair the fact that Fan Morgal is at first glance a sorcerer and at deeper study more like some kind of symbiotic stable non-Chaos daemon-host would have probably doomed the relationship anyway, but yeah the parallels are not going to help. One thing that will be interesting to see is how the Khan takes to us. Unlike Russ he is not as anti-psyker and he is from a shamanistic culture. Maybe curiosity?
 
Welp we have a primarch, we have a tribe and we have giant Ambuls... how do we take a planet, preferably without doing too much damage to the planet and especially its population? The easiest way would be just to exploit religious fervor to drive across the planet with the obvious prophet, but that seems to be tempting fate given what the religion is hereabouts. I think we might want to focus on the Scar and the Man of Stone, if we can fix that while holding off the Covenant and then use the boons of archeo-tech to improve the lives of our people we will have more than just an ideological argument for why Fan Morgal and Lorgar should be in charge.

Actually that does raise another question... who is conquering the planet? With any other primarch it is not a question, but well, Infernal Exalts, much like Setra, do not kneel (unless they are planning to stab you in the back later). On the other hand he is the social primarch and Fan Morgal is a magician Infernal so it might be worth letting him take the lead anyway.
 
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