[X] Plan Instringent Internationalism
-[X] [INDOCHINA] Reject the Treaty. (Mainline CANNOT vote for this option)
-[X] [VNQPH] Give Phan all that he needs. (Mainline CANNOT vote for this option)
-[X] [FOREIGN] The United People's Union of Great Britain and Ireland
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Union of American Socialist Republics
-[X] KMT - Revolutionary Group
[X] Plan Revolutionary Pragmatism v2
-[X] [INDOCHINA] Agree to the Treaty, but Reject the New Provisions in Secret.
-[X] [VNQPH] Agree to the formation of the new organization, but withhold resources.
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Germany
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Japan
-[X] KMT - Revolutionary Group
[X] Plan: Playing Ball -[X]KMT - Mainline -[X] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Germany
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Japan
I am not wholly sure that I like this plan but I am willing to see how it goes.
[X] Plan Semi-Revolutionary Pragmatism v2
-[X] [INDOCHINA] Agree to the Treaty, but Reject the New Provisions in Secret.
-[X] [VNQPH] Agree to the formation of the new organization, but withhold resources.
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Germany
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Japan
-[X] KMT - Mainline
[X] Plan Revolutionary Pragmatism v2
-[X] [INDOCHINA] Agree to the Treaty, but Reject the New Provisions in Secret.
-[X] [VNQPH] Agree to the formation of the new organization, but withhold resources.
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Germany
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Japan
[X] Plan Revolutionary Pragmatism v2
-[X] [INDOCHINA] Agree to the Treaty, but Reject the New Provisions in Secret.
-[X] [VNQPH] Agree to the formation of the new organization, but withhold resources.
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Germany
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Japan
-[X] KMT - Mainline
[X] Plan Revolutionary Pragmatism v2
-[X] [INDOCHINA] Agree to the Treaty, but Reject the New Provisions in Secret.
-[X] [VNQPH] Agree to the formation of the new organization, but withhold resources.
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Germany
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Japan
-[X] KMT - Mainline
[X] Plan The Revolution Cannot Die
-[X] [INDOCHINA] Reject the Treaty. (Mainline CANNOT vote for this option)
-[X] [VNQPH] Give Phan all that he needs. (Mainline CANNOT vote for this option)
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Germany
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Union of American Socialist Republics
-[X] KMT - Revolutionary Group
From my understanding of the whip mechanics it's not necessary to vote with the thread just to get something passed. Song will browbeat convince the KMT to have a united stance.
[X] Plan Instringent Internationalism
-[X] [INDOCHINA] Reject the Treaty. (Mainline CANNOT vote for this option)
-[X] [VNQPH] Give Phan all that he needs. (Mainline CANNOT vote for this option)
-[X] [FOREIGN] The United People's Union of Great Britain and Ireland
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Union of American Socialist Republics
-[X] KMT - Revolutionary Group
[X] Plan As Agreed upon by DemCent
-[X] [INDOCHINA] Agree to the Treaty, but Reject the New Provisions.
-[X] [VNQPH] Agree to the formation of the new organization, but withhold resources.
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Germany
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Union of American Socialist Republics
-[X] KMT - Mainline
Basically Fireiy's plan mixed in with the winners of the strawpoll because both were similar enough except for changing Brazil to Germany.
[X] Plan Revolutionary Pragmatism v2
-[X] [INDOCHINA] Agree to the Treaty, but Reject the New Provisions in Secret.
-[X] [VNQPH] Agree to the formation of the new organization, but withhold resources.
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Germany
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Japan
-[X] KMT - Revolutionary Group
[X] Plan As Agreed upon by DemCent
-[X] [INDOCHINA] Agree to the Treaty, but Reject the New Provisions.
-[X] [VNQPH] Agree to the formation of the new organization, but withhold resources.
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Germany
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Union of American Socialist Republics
-[X] KMT - Mainline
[] KMT - Revolutionary Group
[] [INDOCHINA] Reject the Treaty. (Mainline CANNOT vote for this option) [] [VNQPH] Give Phan all that he needs. (Mainline CANNOT vote for this option)
[] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Germany
[] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Japan
[] KMT - Independents
[] [INDOCHINA] Reject the Treaty. (Mainline CANNOT vote for this option) [] [VNQPH] Give Phan all that he needs. (Mainline CANNOT vote for this option)
[] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Germany
[] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Japan
[x] KMT - Mainline [x] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Germany
[x] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Japan
Trying to enact the plan I described before. I think that the "pragmatic" option is anything but. It doesn't make a friend out of France because we're still helping a revolutionary group set up in their territory and rejecting their secret treaty provisions which together paint a hostile picture. It does however give them breathing room to focus their all resources on internal dissidents and further hamstrings the would-be rebels by starving them of the intelligence and organizational resources they need to avoid getting smooshed. Supporting a group that's been set up to fail is like the worst option because it solidifies the French hold on the region when they kill rebels, demoralizes our people who groan under similar oppression and see a KMT org fail to liberate themselves while we do nothing, and the French have our involvement to justify attacks on us when they've got the domestic front sorted.
We need to start figuring out a way to get these French territories and it's not going to work to directly fight the world empire behemoth while all our other problems are in the way. But if we make their control of Vietnam untenable or at least costly, that brings true hope in for a southern China made mostly inaccessible to the French- and with it, massive credibility for us in the teeming peoples of neighboring Xin Han who are dissatisfied with their leaders who always bend their backs to the foreigners. It's a longer term investment, but this will be a far easier and less expensive way to reunite the country than the awful and bloody slog of wars we'd need to fight if we can't bolster our credentials and spread our revolution through parties other than ourselves. Support people so we can rely on them in turn.
[X] Plan As Agreed upon by DemCent
-[X] [INDOCHINA] Agree to the Treaty, but Reject the New Provisions.
-[X] [VNQPH] Agree to the formation of the new organization, but withhold resources.
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Germany
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Union of American Socialist Republics
-[X] KMT - Mainline
Trying to enact the plan I described before. I think that the "pragmatic" option is anything but. It doesn't make a friend out of France because we're still helping a revolutionary group set up in their territory and rejecting their secret treaty provisions which together paint a hostile picture. It does however give them breathing room to focus their all resources on internal dissidents and further hamstrings the would-be rebels by starving them of the intelligence and organizational resources they need to avoid getting smooshed. Supporting a group that's been set up to fail is like the worst option because it solidifies the French hold on the region and demoralizes our people.
Have to disagree on you there. I think there's a fine line between allowing Phan to go back to his homeland and actively supporting him, which we technically aren't breaking with the treaty. The reason for not supporting Phan entirely is because our current intelligence apparatus isn't capable of supporting both Southern Chinese and Vietnamese operations concurrently with reconstruction. It's a matter of priority and keeping our networks in Southern China matter more currently. And hey if the Vietnamese end up failing before they become a bigger threat, they'll at least split French attention in the Far East. We were never going to be friends with France since they decided to hand off Guangzhou to the Xin Han, however chaotic that transition is right now. I'm just hoping we can skirt the line well enough.
On the matter of the provisions to the treaty, I don't think the French will know from the outset of the agreement that we're secretly not going to follow them. That's really a matter for ROC intelligence which is out of our hands. Though I do see the benefit in just rejecting the new provisions outright to be clear to the French. I would have voted for that but knowing that's what the ZRF prefers I just gave them that bone.
[X] Plan Revolutionary Pragmatism v2
-[X] [INDOCHINA] Agree to the Treaty, but Reject the New Provisions in Secret.
-[X] [VNQPH] Agree to the formation of the new organization, but withhold resources.
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Germany
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Japan
-[X] KMT - Revolutionary Group
[x] Plan As Agreed upon by DemCent
- [x] [INDOCHINA] Agree to the Treaty, but Reject the New Provisions.
- [x] [VNQPH] Agree to the formation of the new organization, but withhold resources.
- [x] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Germany
- [x] [FOREIGN] The Union of American Socialist Republics
- [x] KMT - Mainline
[X] Plan As Agreed upon by DemCent, Independent
-[X] [INDOCHINA] Agree to the Treaty, but Reject the New Provisions.
-[X] [VNQPH] Agree to the formation of the new organization, but withhold resources.
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Germany
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Union of American Socialist Republics
-[X]KMT - Independents
Have to disagree on you there. I think there's a fine line between allowing Phan to go back to his homeland and actively supporting him, which we technically aren't breaking with the treaty. The reason for not supporting Phan entirely is because our current intelligence apparatus isn't capable of supporting both Southern Chinese and Vietnamese operations concurrently with reconstruction. It's a matter of priority and keeping our networks in Southern China matter more currently. And hey if the Vietnamese end up failing before they become a bigger threat, they'll at least split French attention in the Far East. We were never going to be friends with France since they decided to hand off Guangzhou to the Xin Han, however chaotic that transition is right now. I'm just hoping we can skirt the line well enough.
On the matter of the provisions to the treaty, I don't think the French will know from the outset of the agreement that we're secretly not going to follow them. That's really a matter for ROC intelligence which is out of our hands. Though I do see the benefit in just rejecting the new provisions outright to be clear to the French. I would have voted for that but knowing that's what the ZRF prefers I just gave them that bone.
I don't think we will be successful in a, "TECHNICALLY we didn't break your treaty" approach. At least, I wouldn't want to be the guy explaining to the French how the guys calling themselves the Vietnamese KMT who we allowed to call themselves that actually have nothing to do with us because we're too cheap. Certainly not to be quoted back in domestic media. It's all the downside of pissing off the French but then some because betrayal is a twist worse than an honest enemy, but also we look terrible to our own people who are occupied by the French when we promise to crack down.
Basically, we should pick a lane and stick to it. Either we actually support this revolution even if it sticks a bit in reconstruction, or we give up on to buy off the benefits of cooperation from the French at cost of the sentiments of the people.
The Vietnamese failing to get the party off the ground and getting slaughtered isn't splitting French attention. Your vote is specifically allowing them to focus on the domestic front and squish them. If they do that they can return that attention to us fairly expediently.
A quick rundown of the leading plans for you all. Might be inaccurate. First time doing this, rounded down when possible.
Revolutionary Pragmatism V2 is leading among the revolutionaries with 44 votes in the Yuan.
As Agreed Upon by DemCent is leading the Mainline with 114 votes in the Yuan. Semi-Revolutionary Pragmatism v2 has 46 votes in the Yuan (1 hasn't been edited). There are two player votes that abstain from the treaty talks but want Germany and Japan which is another 46 votes.
Edit: There is a plan for that last one, plan Playing Ball by @Nevis
The Independents do not have anyone voting for them yet.
If I'm interpreting the whip mechanics correctly that means As Agreed Upon by Demcent wins with a plurality of votes at this point. Though, the different plans voting for Germany and Japan have plurality for diplomatic missions.
We'd be accepting the treaty but no new provisions. Allowing Phan to establish the Vietnamese KMT. Germany is guaranteed for one of our diplomatic missions. It's up to Song to decide if he decides to whip the party into a UASR mission or accept the diplomatic vote plurality and send one to Japan.
Everything can still change though! Someone please vote for crime the Independents.
I totally understand your concerns. I'm not going to take the time to say my points again because voting is underway unless the vote closure gets delayed. Your plans is pretty solid in it's reasoning. But you'd have to convince the thread to reject the treaty. It's not just my plan that wants to at least accept the treaty for the ceasefire.
Edit: Tally hasn't updated the new votes but generally Dem Cent still appears to be the leading plan.
Right, I've arrived. The total tally of the strawpoll at this time is as follows:
[] [VNQPH] Agree to the formation of the new organization, but withhold resources. 16% (12 votes)
[] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Germany 16% (12 votes)
[] [FOREIGN] The Union of American Socialist Republics 13.33% (10 votes)
[] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Brazil 12% (9 votes)
[] [INDOCHINA] Agree to the Treaty, but Reject the New Provisions. 10.67% (8 votes)
[] [INDOCHINA] Agree to the Treaty, but Reject the New Provisions in Secret. 8% (6 votes)
[] [VNQPH] Give Phan all that he needs. (Mainline CANNOT vote for this option) 8% (6 votes)
[] [INDOCHINA] Reject the Treaty. (Mainline CANNOT vote for this option) 6.67% (5 votes)
[] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Japan 5.33% (4 votes)
[] [FOREIGN] The United People's Union of Great Britain and Ireland 4% (3 votes)
[] [VNQPH] Deny his request. (Revolutionary Group CANNOT vote for this option) 1.33% (1 votes)
[] [INDOCHINA] Agree to the Treaty in Full. (Revolutionary Group CANNOT vote for this option) 0% (0 votes)
[] [FOREIGN] The Second French Empire 0% (0 votes)
In quick summary, The Empire of Germany wins the first place foreign vote while the UASR wins the second place vote. Agreeing to the formation wins and agreeing to the treaty while publicly rejecting the new provisions wins. This has been voted upon by 18 people in total, including one anonymous which I have rejected from the results for a total of 17. This has not changed the end result of the poll, but has narrowed the lead for some options by one. I urge everyone to vote for one of the below options, as these were the results of the poll.
[X] Plan As Agreed upon by DemCent
-[X] [INDOCHINA] Agree to the Treaty, but Reject the New Provisions.
-[X] [VNQPH] Agree to the formation of the new organization, but withhold resources.
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Germany
-[X] [FOREIGN] The Union of American Socialist Republics
-[X] KMT - Mainline
[] Plan As Agreed upon by DemCent, Revolutionary
-[] [INDOCHINA] Agree to the Treaty, but Reject the New Provisions.
-[] [VNQPH] Agree to the formation of the new organization, but withhold resources.
-[] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Germany
-[] [FOREIGN] The Union of American Socialist Republics
-[] KMT - Revolutionary Group
[] Plan As Agreed upon by DemCent, Independent
-[] [INDOCHINA] Agree to the Treaty, but Reject the New Provisions.
-[] [VNQPH] Agree to the formation of the new organization, but withhold resources.
-[] [FOREIGN] The Empire of Germany
-[] [FOREIGN] The Union of American Socialist Republics
-[]KMT - Independents
