I'm not sure we'll have that option.
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Terminus Quest: A CKII Mass Effect Quest
- Location
- California, USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
@PoptartProdigy if we take the Terminus Favor would that create an opportunity for other polities to gain a null veto without our consent?
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- Pronouns
- Reader
Counter point. We would be getting this because we gave up something of intrinsically equal value. You really think stingy self serving Jondam Corporate Nation is ever going to have something worth as much as this and not haggle for it? You think a bunch of greedy corporate types have the foresight to trade anything worth this much for legislature changes instead of money or some tax exception?
Jondam Corporate Nation was barely tolerated before the Commonwealth stepped in as, I'm sure we all agree, superior competition in civilian ship market. We struck a blow to their value to the alliance before we ever joined. Jondam is unlikely to ever have something worthwhile enough to merit receiving a similar exception. In the medium term, I expect they'll be absorbed by the M.I.C. or Rim Dominion over the next few decades as their contributions to the terminus alliance falter and their self serving monetarily focused dealing increasingly wears on the other members.
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Thebigpieman
I've got this, I think.
- Location
- United States
The precedent being set is the Commonwealth gave something of incredible value to the alliance and in return was given the ability to ram through a piece of legislation. If other member states wanted to be able to do the same thing they'd also have to give up something for the betterment of the entire alliance.
I can see why people might be worried but I think the various member states actually being willing to build up the alliance would be a good thing rather than a bad thing.
I can see why people might be worried but I think the various member states actually being willing to build up the alliance would be a good thing rather than a bad thing.
- Location
- South Africa
Maybe but the thing is, if we do get it we can ensure that there are limits to what can be passed, there won't be any limits since it's not been done before, still it is something we should be worried about until we have checks and balances against such a thing.
Also maybe this won't occur again remember the Terminus Alliance is still very young, it could very well be just because of its young age that we get away with this and it'll not come up again later. As it stands I doubt anyone else has anything to truely offer the whole alliance such a boost to get this kind of favor.
On another note, why do I get the feeling that the Remanent and Frontier Confederacy will eventually confederate with one another over shared struggles, should allow them to gain a bit more power maybe.
None of this is true.
Jondam and whoever controls them was farsighted enough to manage to take over their area of space.
Assuming they are incompetent is very much unwarranted. The Mass Effect setting has multiple examples of corporations successfully doing the cyberpunk thing, from owning entire worlds like Noveria to waging war in Garvug.
JCN was not a major ship producer for the Terminus Alliance, Korlus is.
Whatever else Jondam currently provides, the Terminus does not rely on their shipbuilding and never has.
Again, with respect, you may need to read the previous updates before making assertions about political relationsips.
The point of precedents is that everyone and anyone can use them.
Predicating your argument on the idea that one faction wont be able to use them is about as dumb as the STG assuming that only they could use a backdoor in Citadel comms.
Our QM is Lawful Evil. Always remember this when making plans and taunting Murphy by going "surely this can never happen".
If you think that being the protagonist entitles us to special consideration, I will refer you to their Dragon Ball Quest and why that PC is currently exiled from their home planet..
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Korlus is the *military* ship producer. I believe JCN makes a lot of the civilian ships in the region before we decided to throw our open production capability at the market and compete with them.
Watch the spoilers please? I didn't get that far in that quest yet.
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Kind of at war here, with a grossly inferior economy.
This is not a political question about the direction of the Terminus, its an economic one. We know to what use we can put such a favor, and we cannot say to what use other nations might prioritize.
Jondam for example, has already suggested that a Terminus priority should be spending economic effort to redistributing shipbuilding capacity across the Alliance.
During a war. Which coincidentally weakens Korlus and Virmire while strengthening them. Just a coincidence.
I dont think anyone is opposed to strengthening the Terminus per se.
But I think its unwise to trade whats an economic bonus for a diplomatic one-use card.
And a card that other people might use as a precedent, at that.
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Also worth remembering that whats good for the goose is good for the gander.
Precedents can be used by any side. Allowing us to do something once is one thing, but a precedent for any nation being allowed to ram one thing into Alliance law can be a Very Bad Thing.
And Poptart's QM orientation is Lawful Evil.
And so if, say, Jondam show up with a Prothean beacon or something similar that they dont have the ability to read or exploit anyway, pass it off to the Terminus Alliance so that it can be interpreted, and then unilaterally enshrine one thing into Terminus law, you'd be fine?
Lets say, the obligation for every nation to help other nations reclaim
Or that debts cant be discharged, and are inherited by a person's heirs?
Or that other nations have to give up whatever technological artefacts they turn up?
Im sure everyone else can think of laws and instances they'd rather no one else force on them.
*checks*
Nah. It produces half the warships in the Alliance according to Governor Gam, but its described as the Alliance's shipyard when we spoke to Governor Gaim. Military ships are not the only thing it builds.
See this:
They wouldnt have done this, even as just a diplomatic maneuver, if they were a major ship producer.
And this, by the way, is just one example of what I was talking about when I said that other, competent people can have other priorities than us.
Ah, sorry.
I thought it had been long enough that anyone interested had caught up.
Again, my apologies.
- Pronouns
- Reader
Korlus produces a lot of the Alliance's Military ships. JCN has a stake in producing irregular civilian vessels for a lot of the Terminus Alliance civilian market, which we have been cutting into by producing standardized models. Mira has the idea during her trip between year 31 and year 32, Omega specifically.
As we see here, Korlus hasn't bothered with the civilian ship market that much, presumably because their is better profit in military production or Korlus shipyard space is too critical to the war effort.
This is Ironic from someone who has spent most of the last few days insisting that Terminus overall would fail to make proper use of a volus investment. Jondam with it's single system, flimsy hold on power, and lack of sense not to push an agenda during recontact broadcast is competent and to be feared, but actually powerful members like Korlus, Omega, and Tamaras republic can't be trusted to use the favor correctly? I think the alliance as a whole can be politely strong armed into intelligent moves by it's more competent leaders like Suval. Jondam however? Average, very average, with the occasional moments of severe stupidity.
Fair, though I will say that QM has stated they pull fewer punches in dragon ball. Either way, the precedent of acting on the super polities behalf or to it's benefit is one worth establishing even if it means the precedent of people getting policies passed through the council without opposition.
According to the above post by Mira, while they produce civilian ships, they aren't a major producer of them.
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Need to address this
Forcing us to engage diplomatically with the rest of the Alliance means that what laws are adopted have general buy-in and will actually be enforced, as opposed to being on the books and ignored.
And it does not prevent us from acting alone, or with a subset of other Terminus members, where we dont get unanimity.
Or using economic measures as a pressure factor to set de-facto standards.
It may frustrate you, but it reassures a bunch of other people.
They can be competent or incompetent at implementing their goals. We have no way of telling at the moment.
But OUR goal is the war. I cannot swear to the priority of the other 9 TA members prioritizing the war as strongly. See, again, the Jondam proposal for redistributing shipbuilding capacity.
Jondam controls the Hourglass Nebula cluster, not a single system.
There is literally no indication they have a flimsy hold on power or they are weak; the only people who have been characterized that way are the Northern Defense League.
For example?
We literally had to fight a small campaign over a decade to break the power of the corporations in Virmire space, because they proved to be a significant issue. And we only pulled it off after the Great Crash gave us a window of opportunity.
I do not want to set a precedent where, say, the Jondam Corporate Nation can override all our trust-busting and monopoly-breaking legislation with one new law at the Terminus Alliance level.
Or someone else can legalizeslavery indentured servitude across the Alliance.
Their showing in the narrative suggests the JCN are more invested in the Terminus' civilian economy:
Gonna note that this? Isnt actually a bad thing for a new transnational organization of less than 10 members.
Forcing us to engage diplomatically with the rest of the Alliance means that what laws are adopted have general buy-in and will actually be enforced, as opposed to being on the books and ignored.
And it does not prevent us from acting alone, or with a subset of other Terminus members, where we dont get unanimity.
Or using economic measures as a pressure factor to set de-facto standards.
It may frustrate you, but it reassures a bunch of other people.
I have repeatedly said that other people can have other priorities than us.
They can be competent or incompetent at implementing their goals. We have no way of telling at the moment.
But OUR goal is the war. I cannot swear to the priority of the other 9 TA members prioritizing the war as strongly. See, again, the Jondam proposal for redistributing shipbuilding capacity.
Jondam controls the Hourglass Nebula cluster, not a single system.
There is literally no indication they have a flimsy hold on power or they are weak; the only people who have been characterized that way are the Northern Defense League.
No its not. Not if said precedent is available to other factions as well.
For example?
We literally had to fight a small campaign over a decade to break the power of the corporations in Virmire space, because they proved to be a significant issue. And we only pulled it off after the Great Crash gave us a window of opportunity.
I do not want to set a precedent where, say, the Jondam Corporate Nation can override all our trust-busting and monopoly-breaking legislation with one new law at the Terminus Alliance level.
Or someone else can legalize
Fair. I missed that bit.
Their showing in the narrative suggests the JCN are more invested in the Terminus' civilian economy:
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- Pronouns
- Reader
That's a fairer take.
Right. Used the wrong word my bad.
Their not described as being a particularly strong presence either. Their the corporate vanilla of the Terminus Alliance based on what I've read. Nothing particularly meaningful or noteworthy, but their a source of trade and economy that the Alliance doesn't see a point in interfering with.
This is an opinion, and to be fair I should have prefaced my post being one as well. We'll both have to let people make up their own minds. Nothing is ever accomplished without taking risks, and taking risks is half of what's gotten us this far.
Yeah. They seem to basically be the foreign investor in any bit of terminus alliance consumer goods production they can get their hands on.
- Location
- Grandview
[X][MAROON] In force. All three raiding fleets are now coming off of patrol duties, and the 2nd Battle Fleet is held in Sentry Omega for situations that require a reserve, just such as this one. Send all of them to Maroon Sea while you figure out a more permanent solution. If the Rachni have decided they've smelled weakness, they'll be terminally disappointed.
[X][FAVOR] Investment. The finances of Irune are without equal. You want that money moving to prop up enterprises within your space, on generous terms.
[X][EXTINCTION] Only bombard worthless rocks. You want to preserve anything you know to contain valuable resources or facilities, but there's no harm in scratching the worthless asteroids that the Rachni occupy purely to be a pain in the ass off the list
[X][FAVOR] Investment. The finances of Irune are without equal. You want that money moving to prop up enterprises within your space, on generous terms.
[X][EXTINCTION] Only bombard worthless rocks. You want to preserve anything you know to contain valuable resources or facilities, but there's no harm in scratching the worthless asteroids that the Rachni occupy purely to be a pain in the ass off the list
They arent really described at all. This is the bulk of what we know about them OOC:
We havent had the intelligence operatives on the ground, or the analysts to spare to point at the rest of the Terminus Alliance.
We are literally just beginning to set up a spy academy.
As in, if you look at Year 36, these are basic Intrigue options:
We havent had the resources to take them yet.
A lot of our policymaking IC and OOC is effectively blind, and restricted to what we can get by diplomacy.
We dont know very much IC. Because our priorities have been the Rachni.
I dont see this risk as worth taking at this point in the war.
We are not so comfortable that we should be giving up a major economic favor at a critical moment that improves our ability to prosecute this war for an indeterminate diplomatic one that might set an uncomfortable precedent.
IMO.
Look very hard at some of the dictatorships and corporatocracies in the Terminus before you decide if you want to set a precedent where one nation, any nation, can push a law unilaterally into Alliance law.
See above. We dont really know how far, or how pervasive they are.
I am just not inclined to dismiss any corporation, or group of corporations, capable enough to stage a takeover of a nationstate, even if its a small one. Objectionable doesnt mean incompetent.
But it means their goals may not necessarily be ours, and they will pursue them as they are able.
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Man, this vote keeps trading leaders. Always interesting to see a close vote with a lot of passionate people debating.
- Pronouns
- Reader
Well, we have two intrigue actions year 38. Hopefully we can work on ears in the north and anti Rachni intelligence then. Maybe the latter with an expedite and Kurik for some quality intelligence against the Rachni on the quick.
shepsquared
Erratic Aussie
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
[X][EXTINCTION] Bombard almost everything besides locations of particular value. While some locations the Rachni occupy hold value in mundane resources and infrastructure, they're nothing we can't replicate ourselves or get elsewhere with little issue. However a few places hold unique or extremely valuable resources that are absolutely worth the effort of taking by force such as Precursor ruins and significant Eezo deposits.
[X][MAROON] Conventionally. Deploy the 2nd Battle Fleet to Maroon Sea. Have one of your raiding fleets pick up patrol duties in Sentry Omega. That will provide a powerful deterrent to any attempts at moving in, and if the rachni try anyway, you should be able to hold long enough to bring in reinforcements.
[X][FAVOR] Ask for something on behalf of the Terminus Alliance, which they will pick, in exchange for one vote of your choice passed without a veto in the Council.
[X][MAROON] Conventionally. Deploy the 2nd Battle Fleet to Maroon Sea. Have one of your raiding fleets pick up patrol duties in Sentry Omega. That will provide a powerful deterrent to any attempts at moving in, and if the rachni try anyway, you should be able to hold long enough to bring in reinforcements.
[X][FAVOR] Ask for something on behalf of the Terminus Alliance, which they will pick, in exchange for one vote of your choice passed without a veto in the Council.
[X][FAVOR] Investment. The finances of Irune are without equal. You want that money moving to prop up enterprises within your space, on generous terms.
- Location
- Aotearoa
Happy to see the quest back, and to hear of your good life news Poptart.
[x] [EXTINCTION] Only bombard worthless rocks. You want to preserve anything you know to contain valuable resources or facilities, but there's no harm in scratching the worthless asteroids that the Rachni occupy purely to be a pain in the ass off the list.
[x] [MAROON] Conventionally. Deploy the 2nd Battle Fleet to Maroon Sea. Have one of your raiding fleets pick up patrol duties in Sentry Omega. That will provide a powerful deterrent to any attempts at moving in, and if the rachni try anyway, you should be able to hold long enough to bring in reinforcements.
[x] [FAVOR] Investment. The finances of Irune are without equal. You want that money moving to prop up enterprises within your space, on generous terms.
[x] [PLAN] Plan Business as usual even if they are Ardat-Yakshi.
As we're clearly spoiling to be one of the major Terminus players, with an agenda not necessarily aligned with other more authoritarian power blocks, I don't want to enshrine a veto exemption precedent.
[x] [EXTINCTION] Only bombard worthless rocks. You want to preserve anything you know to contain valuable resources or facilities, but there's no harm in scratching the worthless asteroids that the Rachni occupy purely to be a pain in the ass off the list.
[x] [MAROON] Conventionally. Deploy the 2nd Battle Fleet to Maroon Sea. Have one of your raiding fleets pick up patrol duties in Sentry Omega. That will provide a powerful deterrent to any attempts at moving in, and if the rachni try anyway, you should be able to hold long enough to bring in reinforcements.
[x] [FAVOR] Investment. The finances of Irune are without equal. You want that money moving to prop up enterprises within your space, on generous terms.
[x] [PLAN] Plan Business as usual even if they are Ardat-Yakshi.
As we're clearly spoiling to be one of the major Terminus players, with an agenda not necessarily aligned with other more authoritarian power blocks, I don't want to enshrine a veto exemption precedent.
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Dont it just
No Intrigue options until Year 38 is a bummer. That was a mistake that we didnt notice then.
Ah well.
- Location
- South Africa
You know what the worst part about this vote is, I like both of them equally so I'm constantly debating what I gonna vote for and I'm just gonna stick to my original vote. Also, it's not that bad that we don't have an Intrigue option, we'll be a bit more free after those 2 actions though it does leave us blind for a year. I not changing my vote after this I swear!
[x] [FAVOR] Investment. The finances of Irune are without equal. You want that money moving to prop up enterprises within your space, on generous terms.
[x] [FAVOR] Investment. The finances of Irune are without equal. You want that money moving to prop up enterprises within your space, on generous terms.
- Pronouns
- He
[X][EXTINCTION] Only bombard worthless rocks. You want to preserve anything you know to contain valuable resources or facilities, but there's no harm in scratching the worthless asteroids that the Rachni occupy purely to be a pain in the ass off the list.
[X][MAROON] In force. All three raiding fleets are now coming off of patrol duties, and the 2nd Battle Fleet is held in Sentry Omega for situations that require a reserve, just such as this one. Send all of them to Maroon Sea while you figure out a more permanent solution. If the Rachni have decided they've smelled weakness, they'll be terminally disappointed.
[X][FAVOR] Investment. The finances of Irune are without equal. You want that money moving to prop up enterprises within your space, on generous terms.
Massively enjoyed binging this story the last few days. Excited to be caught up and voting as well.
[X][MAROON] In force. All three raiding fleets are now coming off of patrol duties, and the 2nd Battle Fleet is held in Sentry Omega for situations that require a reserve, just such as this one. Send all of them to Maroon Sea while you figure out a more permanent solution. If the Rachni have decided they've smelled weakness, they'll be terminally disappointed.
[X][FAVOR] Investment. The finances of Irune are without equal. You want that money moving to prop up enterprises within your space, on generous terms.
Massively enjoyed binging this story the last few days. Excited to be caught up and voting as well.
- Location
- California, USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Well, I made my effortpost. If it doesn't pan out it's not like it's gonna be the end of the world, it just means I have to campaign even harder for improving the Terminus and our relationship to it in future turns.
Yeah, I think at this point I'm good with either of the two options as presented, so I'm kinda just hoping one wins soon lol.
But also, we definitely need to improve our diplomacy with Terminus soon. We need to capitalize on our starting position.
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