East Africa 1930: An ORBAT Quest
- Thread starter 4WheelSword
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
- Location
- USA
[X] Plan: Training Approved
- Location
- Denmark
Well, I would like to make them take box magazines, so I will make a plan that does that.
[X] Plan: All Hotckkiss uses Box Magazines
-[X] Purchase Heavy Machine Guns
--[X] 250x Single Hotchkiss M1929 on Fixed Tripod using box magazines
--[X] All currently owned Hotchkiss converted to take box magazines
It's being funded, funding it more would only complete it faster.
- Location
- Yes
They're running into more problems all the time and can't provide useful time estimates, but they're sure that eventually the current level of funding will produce a gun. Increased funding will allow the investigation of problems in parallel, which should shorten the time into service but won't fundamentally unstick them.
Current SMGs are all ludicrously expensive overengineered gold-plated things so we don't want to buy them as-is but it would be good to get a selection to take apart.
I think the biggest capability gap ATM is mortars; we have some HMGs already.
[x] Plan: Combat Proven
Might be an idea to add 12 to this for a dedicated training regiment?
Less accurate and shorter-ranged than light 60mm company mortars but much quicker to move around and set up.
The Japanese issued them in very large numbers - 3 per platoon - so their control is a lot lower in the chain of command than heavier weapons.
Also, the Japanese started making them last year, while the Brandt 60mm won't enter service until 1935.
The infantry tripod is a middle-ground, but I think it's a nonstarter since it cannot be used for air defence and that's half the role of these guns.
The naval mountings I'm not sure - non-autocannon light AA apparently isn't great and even 20/25mm has a limited lifespan, but twin-mountings could be good on patrol boats.
I also think it's important to convert the current guns to magazine-feed.
As for the other options, the Chatellerault could be good if it works, but it's still air-cooled so I don't know how far the 'rate of fire of two guns in the weight and space of one' would go. Also it's a complete unknown with maybe two photos in existence so who knows.
The Browning doesn't actually seem to be any heavier than the Hotchkiss and does have a high rate of fire but it's also a new calibre and doesn't have the handy-dandy wheels or an effective dual-role mounting.
The motorised options... maybe if we actually had any trucks to begin with lmao.
[x] Plan: Wheelbarrow
-[x] Purchase Heavy Machine Guns
--[x] 228 additional Hotchkiss M1929 on wheeled mounts using box magazines; send back guns currently in service to be refitted for magazine feed.
Another thought - do we want to keep the regimental AA battery? That one makes sense to be AA mountings.
[x] Plan: Wheelbarrow + Regimental AA
-[x] Purchase Heavy Machine Guns
--[x] 228 additional Hotchkiss M1929 on wheeled mounts using box magazines; send back guns currently in service to be refitted for magazine feed.
--[x] 84 Hotchkiss M1929 on two-gun fixed-tripod AA mountings.
Sticker shock indeed. Well, a 4x army expansion was never going to be cheap.
But I don't think that waking up one day and finding that the army's randomly festooned the nation's rooftops with machineguns for no apparent reason would be a calming experience, exactly.
@FrangibleCover
For the army rep, how do the current signals units work? How troublesome would he expect it to be to connect artillery units and forward observers?
Also, how much additional artillery can be glued to our regiments and battalions before he expects the logistics to become impractical? Though this one might require the field maneuvers to figure out.
I think the biggest capability gap ATM is mortars; we have some HMGs already.
[x] Plan: Combat Proven
Might be an idea to add 12 to this for a dedicated training regiment?
The knee mortar is somewhere in between light mortars and rifle grenades; it's lightweight, portable, and can be put into action very quickly (like the rifle grenades)
Less accurate and shorter-ranged than light 60mm company mortars but much quicker to move around and set up.
The Japanese issued them in very large numbers - 3 per platoon - so their control is a lot lower in the chain of command than heavier weapons.
Also, the Japanese started making them last year, while the Brandt 60mm won't enter service until 1935.
I think it's worth remembering that the weight is only half of the picture. The wheeled mounting is an all-in-one thing, so it doesn't need much setting-up:This isn't something we'd know, but as meta commentary:
(Friedman, Naval Anti-Aircraft Guns and Gunnery)
As for mount preferences, I originally was in the same camp of preferring the DP gun before it was pointed out to me that the difference between the AA tripod and the DP mount is only 5 kilograms, or about a 3% increase in weight. I feel like we could eventually come up with a way of attaching a pair of inexpensive removable or collapsible wheels to the tripod mount so that it can be wheelbarrow'ed around the battlefield by infantry.
[X] Plan: Combat Proven
-[X] Emergency Purchase
--[X] 240x 81 mm Brandt Mle 27/31 mortars
[X] Plan: Training Approved
-[X] Purchase Heavy Machine Guns
--[X] 250x Single Hotchkiss M1929 on Fixed Tripod using box magazines
Numbers are scaled off of a 60k force including reserves, with 4 guns of each type per battalion. Edit: plus 10 additional guns to use to protect the defence council's conference room so that we don't get killed by an errant bomb during wartime and thus ending the quest
- Detach the MG from the limber and the limber from the horse.
- Push the MG into a firing position.
- Evict the uninvited guest from the premises.
The infantry tripod is a middle-ground, but I think it's a nonstarter since it cannot be used for air defence and that's half the role of these guns.
The naval mountings I'm not sure - non-autocannon light AA apparently isn't great and even 20/25mm has a limited lifespan, but twin-mountings could be good on patrol boats.
I also think it's important to convert the current guns to magazine-feed.
As for the other options, the Chatellerault could be good if it works, but it's still air-cooled so I don't know how far the 'rate of fire of two guns in the weight and space of one' would go. Also it's a complete unknown with maybe two photos in existence so who knows.
The Browning doesn't actually seem to be any heavier than the Hotchkiss and does have a high rate of fire but it's also a new calibre and doesn't have the handy-dandy wheels or an effective dual-role mounting.
The motorised options... maybe if we actually had any trucks to begin with lmao.
[x] Plan: Wheelbarrow
-[x] Purchase Heavy Machine Guns
--[x] 228 additional Hotchkiss M1929 on wheeled mounts using box magazines; send back guns currently in service to be refitted for magazine feed.
Another thought - do we want to keep the regimental AA battery? That one makes sense to be AA mountings.
[x] Plan: Wheelbarrow + Regimental AA
-[x] Purchase Heavy Machine Guns
--[x] 228 additional Hotchkiss M1929 on wheeled mounts using box magazines; send back guns currently in service to be refitted for magazine feed.
--[x] 84 Hotchkiss M1929 on two-gun fixed-tripod AA mountings.
As per C_Z:
60,000 men = 60 battalions = 20 regiments = 60 battalions (approximately, actually 58,000)
4 DP guns or mortars per battalion = 240, we've got 24 already. Assuming we want 12 for a training regiment.
4 AA guns per regiment = 80. 4 for training regiment.
60,000 men = 60 battalions = 20 regiments = 60 battalions (approximately, actually 58,000)
4 DP guns or mortars per battalion = 240, we've got 24 already. Assuming we want 12 for a training regiment.
4 AA guns per regiment = 80. 4 for training regiment.
Sticker shock indeed. Well, a 4x army expansion was never going to be cheap.
TBH if we buy 20 regiments worth of dual-role HMGs it'll be quite a while before we have enough soldiers to carry them all in the field, so we might not actually need extras even then.
But I don't think that waking up one day and finding that the army's randomly festooned the nation's rooftops with machineguns for no apparent reason would be a calming experience, exactly.
@FrangibleCover
For the army rep, how do the current signals units work? How troublesome would he expect it to be to connect artillery units and forward observers?
Also, how much additional artillery can be glued to our regiments and battalions before he expects the logistics to become impractical? Though this one might require the field maneuvers to figure out.
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- Location
- an unseen void
- Pronouns
- Any
Part of me really liked the low profile fuck tanks one but I'll defer to the group consensus here.
[X] Plan: Training Approved
[X] Plan: Training Approved
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
I still like the low profile fuck tanks one and I'm still not entirely convinced of the efficacy of going with the fixed mount for all purposes.
I'd rather use the mobile tripod at the battalion level to provide AT and fire support and leave the AA tripod mount up at brigade/regiment.
[X] Double Mounting
-[X] Purchase Heavy Machine Guns
--[X] 250 Additional Hotchkiss 13.2mm HMGs with box magazine feed; send current models back for refitting to box feed.
--[X] 274 Mobile Tripod mounts
--[X] 72 Fixed Tripod Single-Mount
I'd rather use the mobile tripod at the battalion level to provide AT and fire support and leave the AA tripod mount up at brigade/regiment.
[X] Double Mounting
-[X] Purchase Heavy Machine Guns
--[X] 250 Additional Hotchkiss 13.2mm HMGs with box magazine feed; send current models back for refitting to box feed.
--[X] 274 Mobile Tripod mounts
--[X] 72 Fixed Tripod Single-Mount
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- Location
- Yes
The army representative listens patiently as you explain the concept of a forward observer and then declares that it's an interesting idea that would never work. You'd need too many runners, and the time to adjust between shots would be huge!
Ojou-Sama
[Verified GFL enjoyer]
- Location
- A variety of states and nations
Oh. Oh god. The concept of the bloody telegraph is too advanced for us right now? The radio? Idiots!
...we may need to bite the bullet and get the IJA in, right now. This mess has to be fixed before the Ethiopians, the British, or the Italians get any ideas of their own. We can discount the Japanese for now. They will be busy with their Southern Resource Area and China strategies before moving down to Reewin and Africa in general, if they even will do so/will be capable of doing so.
...we may need to bite the bullet and get the IJA in, right now. This mess has to be fixed before the Ethiopians, the British, or the Italians get any ideas of their own. We can discount the Japanese for now. They will be busy with their Southern Resource Area and China strategies before moving down to Reewin and Africa in general, if they even will do so/will be capable of doing so.
- Location
- California
Inb4, we'll need a third kind, camels, for if and when we go to the Sahara and Southern Mediterranean Coast to resist the Italians.I am splitting the difference and buying two different kinds of mounts.
To be fair, it's possible that our representative was sent to us specifically to get him out of other people's hair.
@FrangibleCover What do our two industrialists have to say about the state of Reewin's electronics industries, such as they are? How difficult do they think it would be to deploy and maintain radio/telegraph/field telephone equipment?
@FrangibleCover What do our two industrialists have to say about the state of Reewin's electronics industries, such as they are? How difficult do they think it would be to deploy and maintain radio/telegraph/field telephone equipment?
Ojou-Sama
[Verified GFL enjoyer]
- Location
- A variety of states and nations
Hm... I am actually kinda wondering what the Japanese in general think of us, to be honest, and if it is possible to get some of their smaller zaibatsu to more heavily invest in us...well, with some regulation. Manchuria has only recently been conquered, and it will take some time Showa Steel Works to be established and all.
- Location
- Yes
Alright, I was a bit flippant there. Reewiin has no electronics industry at all, everything has to be imported and most things have to be repaired by foreign workers. Telegraphs exist along the railway, and between the two main cities, Kenya and Italian Somaliland, linking you into the international telegraph network. Radios exist, there is a single transmitter in Buur Gaabo and the lucky few, mostly Europeans, who have a big valve radio at home can listen to occasional Reewiinite programming between acting as a repeater for the East Africa Broadcasting Service in Kenya. Everyone is very proud of your new and advanced radio network. Telephones are basically nonexistent except as intercom systems in industrial applications, as they still are across much of Africa.
Your liaison officer is not stupid, or being stupid - He simply does not see how this could work. Optical telegraphy is useless in the Reewiin bush, you'd be better off shouting. Field telegraphs and telephones are possible but he knows little of them except that laying them through thorn brush is going to be an absolute pain in the arse. He is literally not aware of the portable military radio, he's never seen one and the radio technology he has seen is comparatively gigantic and needs mains electricity.
This is all fixable, but it's going to take time and effort to fix.
Industrially that's about what I expected.
Honestly not sure how portable radios are at this point. Or how they'd be powered - IIRC batteries are shit until at least the 50s, and charging them without vehicles... portable generators maybe? I suppose that's one argument for staff cars, just to drag the comms equipment around, but that's a whole can of worms of its own.
I guess the end result of this is that responsive telecommunications are simply not going to happen; linking units and supporting arms thus being a deliberate process. Since I expect field telephones/telegraphs are a lot simpler and easier to work with than radios, but that means some poor clown with a mule and a 10km reel of wire is going to have to trundle his way between the company HQ to Battalion to wherever the colonel's parked the regimental artillery battery.
Though, indirect artillery also needs good maps I think. Or at least decent ones. And africa in this period is a notoriously well mapped continent, with field surveying being a whole new category of fun and games..
Honestly not sure how portable radios are at this point. Or how they'd be powered - IIRC batteries are shit until at least the 50s, and charging them without vehicles... portable generators maybe? I suppose that's one argument for staff cars, just to drag the comms equipment around, but that's a whole can of worms of its own.
I guess the end result of this is that responsive telecommunications are simply not going to happen; linking units and supporting arms thus being a deliberate process. Since I expect field telephones/telegraphs are a lot simpler and easier to work with than radios, but that means some poor clown with a mule and a 10km reel of wire is going to have to trundle his way between the company HQ to Battalion to wherever the colonel's parked the regimental artillery battery.
Though, indirect artillery also needs good maps I think. Or at least decent ones. And africa in this period is a notoriously well mapped continent, with field surveying being a whole new category of fun and games..
Empress_Boog
Grand Empress
[X] Plan: Training Approved
-[X] Purchase Heavy Machine Guns
--[X] 240x Single Hotchkiss M1929 on Fixed Tripod using box magazines
-[X] Purchase Heavy Machine Guns
--[X] 240x Single Hotchkiss M1929 on Fixed Tripod using box magazines
We have resources that they need and can buy easily and most importantly don't have to Garrison and terrorize to get them.
- Location
- USA
Would also be very nice to find ways to improve literacy. Get education standards up so as to boost our development potential.
Teaching all our soldiers to read would be useful for us and a good start.
Teaching all our soldiers to read would be useful for us and a good start.
Yeah, and they're adorable, which is very important!
The tripod mounting is, as far as I can tell, is this one, scaled down even further to take a single gun:
Given that it's only 160 kg, I think there are opportunities for creativity here once we've gotten to look at them a bit and seen what other countries are doing with their AA guns as well (e.g., detachable or collapsible wheels on two of the legs so that the crews can lift the third leg at a mechanical advantage and wheel it into and out of position). If we want something to fill the same niche as the DP mounting right away, I bet we could remove the legs and bolt that to the bed of a low wooden cart and it'd be better than the current one in terms of rapidity of setting up - keep in mind that for effective AA defence with the DP mount, you've got to correctly orient the MG (and if you don't know where the planes are coming from, that means setting up a full battery).
With only a dozen guns, is it even worth the price? Our crews will have to train to operate strip fed guns anyways because of the Type 3s, they can reuse strips so there isn't added logistical burden, I think the strip feeds probably produce a higher sustained rate of fire anyways (you can feed them in directly instead of needing to remove a spent magazine), and we can always throw them to a separate org like mounting them on riverboats or something where the lack of commonality is a non-issue (and the tripod mounting would be undesirable for a riverboat anyways).
Huh, I wonder what solutions there are. The SNLF probably has some thoughts on this, given their expectation of jungle fighting in a future war, and there may be things being adopted in current fighting.
I wonder if we could do some sort of, like, single-use field telephone cable line throwing shell for a Type 89 grenade discharger?
- Location
- Buskerud, Norway
Its still quite a while until portable infantry radios are a thing. The SCR-300 is not in service with the US until 1940 and I cannot see us implementing portable radios until atleast the mid 40's due to our lack of electrics industry.
Edit: I am aware that there existed vehicle mounted radios beforehand, but that just makes our logistics problems harder as we would need both military vehicles and state of the art radios that are extremely expensive for a minor nation like Reewin to import
Edit: I am aware that there existed vehicle mounted radios beforehand, but that just makes our logistics problems harder as we would need both military vehicles and state of the art radios that are extremely expensive for a minor nation like Reewin to import
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Could actually work, question is whether we can set up the system before we need to actually use it.