[X] Cantaran Spirituality

I think the IoM proved rather definitively that secularism does not stick and also does not work in 40K. The gods are real and they are evil, no amount of playing around with terminology will change that fact.
 
[ ] Cantaran Spirituality: Another way to manage spiritual corruption may lie within giving this new nation a state religion, in this case being the endorsement of the animistic ways of the Cantarans. They see the world as one of living spirits and gods, though they seem to have no connections to the warp creatures you have yet encountered. If endorsed you will likely become a revered spirit yourself, as many Cantarans seem to venerate your existence, a practice largely helped by the presence of the new Prometheanists and the mythological framing they make for your existence. You're not quite sure what the consequences of this practice would cause in the long term.

This is a hard choice. The main argument against atheism is it failed with the emperor but the Toa and they're belief in the greater good worked for them. To the point where they're disbelief and thinking of them being Xeno actually helps them. On the other hand they don't have psykers so maybe that's how they got away with that.

This choice is at the top. With this we can bake in our anti strain coutermeasures as religious doctorine, while using belief to manipulate the warp. Empoweringthe mc and other rituals we may attempt to develop. Its also a more controlled singular religion instead of a bunch of small religions. Ots good and bad sjnce its easier to manipulate on a large scale but its also bad because subversion will be more devastating.



[ ] Centralized: In structuring the state in a unitary fashion you will take much more work to your backlog. You will be responsible for all your systems, but with that comes both upsides and downsides. Few will be as willing to join your government if they are to become provinces rather than member states, though those within dire straits will likely accept regardless. Political parties and factions will become monolithic entities that will be hard to disempower as they grow across entire sectors. You will have a far greater hand in shaping the worlds of your new nation, but only with so many trusted heads to manage the whole mess.

Infiltration by warp strains will probably be easier if we decentralized. We also gave that democratic polity that lost to emps because they couldn't reach a consensus fast enough. Decentralization just seems like it introduces so many weaknesses when we need quick action. It also provides protection for any wrongs being committed that might spiral depending on origin.


[ ] Economic Dominance: Those of the Club meanwhile have plans in their mind to establish Vareena and your fledgling nation as a power of immense wealth. With a relatively high base of resources and extremely advanced technology you could hold a dominant position within these stars through little more than economic treaties in your favor. Will quicken trade actions. Will empower the Amaran Clubs. Will push future warp expeditions into a trade-focused direction.
it's between this and army for me. Negotiation is too slow with emps basically snowballing. Also total war is on the eventual horizon. Being able to use our money to hire mercs, bribe people and maintain armies will be our shield. This is probably the best if we go the Decentralization route. It's soft power that'll help control internally.

Negotiate will work in drawing in people but not maintaining control and influencing people within. Army is probably the fastest route but we're going to have issues with digestion like emps.
 
Here's my proposal, then:

Plan: A Hope Burning Across The Stars
[X] [NAME] The New Confederation
[X] [FLAG] "The Fire Rises"

Dark grey invoking both the darkness of space and of the long dark age, being pierced through a sunrise. Classic diagonal flag contour (Trinidad, Bosnia, Nambia, Lesotho, etc) edited to create an arc, which naturally represents the curve of a planet but can also be a trail moving forward into the future. Bottom right has room for individualized iconography or standards for each system - for Vareena in particular, as the place where this started and Prometheus's center of power, a flame seemed appropriate.

[X][CENTRALIZATION] Decentralized
[X][EXPANSION] Negotiation
[X][RELIGION] Realmer Syncretism
[X][EXTRA] The Realmers will be, in addition with integrating cultural practices and beliefs as the New Confederation spreads, also be tasked with vetting those practices for malign Warp influence, with resources provided to them to aid in that task.

The galaxy already has too many aggressive militaristic expansionist polities in it. Adding one more isn't likely to improve things - the great mistake that the Emperor made was demanding that all of humanity bow to him, and I'd rather not repeat that ourselves.

As for the rest, copying my reasoning from earlier:

This is basically a heavy diplomatic focus with an aim to make integration into our alliance as relatively painless as possible for everyone. We wouldn't have as much centralized control, but would likely be able to expand further with this kind of approach than any other - military conquest as our primary means of spreading among reasonable polities is likely to be quite slow unless we either get lucky enough to have major support within a systems population (in which case diplomatic means of exerting pressure to change on the systems government are likely to succeed anyhow) or are willing to break out the atrocities (which I would rather avoid if possible).

It does mean that we might have to tolerate some degree of injustice continuing while we do our long-term political shaping, and that some of the architects of injustices might get away without a punishment, but I think that's generally worth it in the majority of cases if it means that we're forced to resort to military dominance less often. A lot of the atrocities which are common to less-developed worlds would be pretty easy to push aside through pure technological advancement changing the material conditions, too. Which isn't to say that military force should be entirely off the table, of course - there are lots of unreasonable polities which we'll need major standing forces to deal with anyhow (Orks, Necrons, Dark Eldar), and if conditions somewhere are truly intolerable and negotiation is impossible, then the military can remain available as an option of last resort. I'd just like to avoid making it our go-to initial move.

Something like ThirdComm from LANCER wouldn't be a bad thing to aim for, I think.

As for the religious aspect of it... I waffled a bit between State Secularism and Realmer Syncretism, but in the end Syncretism won out for me on pragmatic grounds - it provides a form of coherent culture that can help create ties across our new federation which might otherwise be lacking under a decentralized leadership style, the focus on syncretism should be relatively synergistic with the heavy diplomatic outreach, and it means that there will be an organization that's actually dedicated to looking at all of the various beliefs across our entire polity, and thus which can catch warning signs of corruption sooner. There's a risk of internal corruption within the organization, of course, but that's basically true of literally any major organization we build, and keeping the issue out of sight wouldn't actually solve the problem. At least this way we can have first-contact cultural specialists on religion who can sound an alert and who themselves can be regularly vetted.
 
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Do note that y'all are also voting on the name and flag / insignia of your newly declared state as well. Also voting categories have been added for each type so the vote can be properly sorted, if you want to got back and edit your posts so they fit that's encouraged.
 
The galaxy already has too many aggressive militaristic expansionist polities in it. Adding one more isn't likely to improve things - the great mistake that the Emperor made was demanding that all of humanity bow to him, and I'd rather not repeat that ourselves.
The reason for that is everyone that wasn't military expansionist ended up destroyed by emps. They couldn't grow fast enough or their system of government didn't allow for fast action.


Look up the Diasporax

Edit: Also what are we going to do when we run into admech or other morally challenged polities? Leave then as they are? Allow them to continue their practice?
 
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The reason for that is everyone that wasn't military expansionist ended up destroyed by emps. They couldn't grow fast enough or their system of government didn't allow for fast action.

Look up the Diasporax

Conquering places is slow unless the population is already mostly on-side (in which case a diplomatic approach would work just as well) or you're willing to do atrocities (the Emperor was, I don't want to).

Trying to conquer an unhappy population would just end up with us bogged down with a constant insurgency/resistance movement or lead us to destroy the very resources and infrastructure that could instead be put to use advancing humanity. Having to fight is, in my eyes, a fail state - every resource put towards it is a resource that can't be put towards technological advancement or industrial expansion. Which isn't to say that I expect it to be an uncommon fail state - we're going to have to fight the Orks and Necrons and Dark Eldar and Chaos-corrupted planets anyhow - but if we can avoid wasting our resources on fighting when we don't have to, that will only accelerate our expansion, not slow it down.

The Great Crusade was flawed from the outset, because the basic premise that the whole thing was built upon ("humanity as a collective can only flourish under the dictatorial control of a single superhuman controller") was incorrect from the start.
 
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-[X] [NAME] The New Confederation
-[X] [INSIGNIA] "We are the watchers of the stars"
-[X] [FLAG] Milky Way Galaxy.


-[X][CENTRALIZATION] Centralized
-[X][EXPANSION] Negotiation
-[X][RELIGION] Realmer Syncretism
-[X][EXTRA] The Realmers will be, in addition with integrating cultural practices and beliefs as the New Confederation spreads, also be tasked with vetting those practices for malign Warp influence, with resources provided to them to aid in that task.
 
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Edit: Also what are we going to do when we run into admech or other morally challenged polities? Leave then as they are? Allow them to continue their practice?

Not being as willing to push for war in the face of injustice is the "cost" of this approach, but we've already seen what kinds of catastrophes "well-intentioned" wars in the name of "improving peoples rights" can look like: consider the Iraq War. Hussein's Iraq was a repressive hellhole, but killing more than a million of Iraq's citizens hardly endeared the rest of the population towards the "liberating" hegemon.

With the Admech in particular, dangling Archao/Lostech in front of their faces and saying that we'll only cooperate and share it with them if they clean up their act seems like a much more clean approach to improving living conditions on worlds they control than going in with the giant robot hordes. Something similar can be done with most other polities - we're a marvel of the lost age with the technology to match, the number of polities who won't be salivating at the chance to get access to that is going to be very small.

If all negotiations fail, no reasonable compromise can be made, and the current situation in a system is intolerable, then yes, we can divert some of our military from the hundreds of other threats they could be focusing on to go deal with it. But it should be our last resort, not the first.
 
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Don't forget the Interex. They're already a military power of their own right and yet Horus and his Legion wiped them out anyway.
They was partially chaos shenanigans. Plus they weren't expansionist so ultimately outnumbered they fell.

Conquering places is slow unless the population is already mostly on-side (in which case a diplomatic approach would work just as well) or you're willing to do atrocities (the Emperor was, I don't want to).

Trying to conquer an unhappy population would just end up with us bogged down with a constant insurgency/resistance movement or lead us to destroy the very resources and infrastructure that could instead be put to use advancing humanity. Having to fight is, in my eyes, a fail state - every resource put towards it is a resource that can't be put towards technological advancement or industrial expansion. Which isn't to say that I expect it to be an uncommon fail state - we're going to have to fight the Orks and Necrons and Dark Eldar and Chaos-corrupted planets anyhow - but if we can avoid wasting our resources on fighting when we don't have to, that will only accelerate our expansion, not slow it down.
Well have to waste resources anyway with a decentralized state. We will have to concentrate on soft power, investigation and Diplomacy. For example we just found out how to stop a strain and can introduce counter measures. Under a decentralized state we'd have to convince everyone to go along with it, not half ass it and hope none of our allies is under chaos.

What happens when we have to go to war and it isn't in a races interest? Or if a member state has a problem with a other or wants to discriminate against another race? We will be wasting the same budget that'd go into the military on that not into infrastructure and technology development.

we'd also have to deal with insurgents anyway. We'd probably have to make concessions with people that aren't morally sound. Loke how emps had to let admech in and look how badly that turned out.

-[X][EXPANSION] Negotiation
How will this work with centralization?

With the Admech in particular, dangling Archao/Lostech in front of their faces and saying that we'll only cooperate and share it with them if they clean up their act seems like a much more clean approach to improving living conditions on worlds they control than going in with the giant robot hordes.
Not going to work they hate AI with a passion. They also don't think anyome but them should work on tech. You also have an agency that's basically a weaker inquisition trying to vet them. No way they allow it.


Edit: Will the write in even do anything for the realmers. It's a draw back that's been noted based on how they're organized. I think creating the inquisition light woukd be it's own separate involved action.


The empire of man seems to be more of a decentralized state, at least during the 40th millennium.
 
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Not going to work they hate AI with a passion. They also don't think anyome but them should work on tech.

I choose to believe that they aren't cardboard cutout supervillains and can be talked to - indeed, Prometheus taking a more hands-off/decentralized role will make any negotiations with groups who have issues with AIs far simpler.

"If you implement these basic sophont decency guidelines and are willing to continue to meet them, we'll share a bajillion STC prints with you" doesn't seem like something that the AdMech wouldn't be willing to work with at least in principle. If we end up dealing with a particularly fanatical AdMech government for which our mere existence as a technologically advanced civilization with AIs that isn't under their control is a breaking point, then so be it - but even in a case like that I expect us to be able to find more radical members among them for whom "maybe don't go to war with the people offering us our technological wet dreams" is a valid political movement.
 
The empire of man seems to be more of a decentralized state, at least during the 40th century.
Sigmar didn't want to create a dynasty of his bloodline despite others telling to do so.

"Heirs? I have no need for heirs. You are all my heirs."

After he left and ascended, the Empire have the Elector Counts to elect every new Emperor/Empress for centuries and the rest is history.
 
The same way like war option only it will be rejoining confederation in peace and celebration instead of being forced to by big fuckoff Dreadnought.

My question came from the fact is no one would willing give up power unless they're back is to the wall. I'll check back but I'm pretty sure the description of centralization says that. My question was on your reasoning and how to see how you think it'll work.

I choose to believe that they aren't cardboard cutout supervillains and can be talked to - indeed, Prometheus taking a more hands-off/decentralized role will make any negotiations with groups who have issues with AIs far simpler.

"If you implement these basic sophont decency guidelines and are willing to continue to meet them, we'll share a bajillion STC prints with you" doesn't seem like something that the AdMech wouldn't be willing to work with at least in principle. If we end up dealing with a particularly fanatical AdMech government for which our mere existence as a technologically advanced civilization with AIs that isn't under their control is a breaking point, then so be it - but even in a case like that I expect us to be able to find more radical members among them for whom "maybe don't go to war with the people offering us our technological wet dreams" is a valid political movement.
They'll wipe you out for using God's machines. They're not cardboard supervillains but religious zealots like every other zealot in history.

They also have good reason for some of their beliefs. Considering anyone who remembers or has records on humanities fall isn't going to want AI anywhere near them. They're also backwards tech barbarians. If they weren't then they wouldn't be admech.
 
-[X] [NAME] The New Confederation
-[X] [FLAG] "The Fire Rises"

[X] Centralized
[X] Liberation
[X] State Secularism
 
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we'd also have to deal with insurgents anyway.

To some extent, maybe. But even in the most awful places, "make things better for your people with the tech we'll give you to make things better for your people with" as the price of entry to the club ought to engender some goodwill amongst the populace towards us. Compare that to directly being the outside invader who took the planet by force, and it should be pretty obvious that one of these approaches is going to lead to more burned bridges than the other.

Basically, I'm imagining a three-tier approach:

"Hey, new system. We're willing to give out access to ABC technology if you're willing to commit and affirm these basic pillars of sophont decency (we will in fact be checking), with a chaser of XYZ technology if you join the New Confederation as a member state (which comes with various other perks like a defensive alliance).

Path a): "My rule is not particularly reliant on atrocities to continue, and the increase in living standards that this technology will provide will buy me/my family/my clique/my government enough goodwill from the population to rule for centuries. I agree to the first exchange and will start working towards the second exchange."

Path b): "Due to ideological/cultural/personal hangups, I am not willing to join this outsider group. I might choose to accept the first exchange if the the pillars are not particularly onerous, or I may reject that too. In any case, I am willing to co-exist with this group in relative peace but will not join them."

Path c): "These basic pillars of sophont rights are antithetical to my continued rule, or I have ideological/cultural/personal hangups which make the mere existence of the New Confederation unacceptable to me. I will continue to flout the pillars and produce atrocities despite being given a clear path to avoid doing so, or will myself declare war upon the New Confederation.

Path a) is what I'm hoping we can accomplish within most systems - since even without relying on goodwill of any sort, we can largely produce an offer that is tempting for most leaders. Path b) is a reasonable state as well - if there's an enclave that is uninterested in joining but also isn't violently flensing people to make servitors or whatever, then sure, they don't have to join - we're reasonably likely to accomplish a cultural victory in the longterm anyhow as our growing polities art, language, trade, and noosphere connections, plus our willingness to be reasonable instead of going for violent annexation, lead to better diplomatic relations over time. In path c) we call in the stompy robots.
 
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My question came from the fact is no one would willing give up power unless they're back is to the wall. I'll check back but I'm pretty sure the description of centralization says that. My question was on your reasoning and how to see how you think it'll work.
I thing of it less like giving up power and more like becoming part of grater power.
You words can shape continent now you words can help shape entire galaxy, granted absolutist monarch will object strongly but few planets have one singular absolute ruler most is ruled be council of nobles, tribal chiefs etc.
Besides promise of restoring you planet to glories from before old night is very enticing and unless you are slavering fuck changes will by for the better for you, for them Confederation exist in myth and legends of better days and now legends are standing before you and myths are becoming reality.
I bet that if you say to hive world population that you will restore environment and rebuild hive cities back to arcologies they will take care of obstinate rulers and join you themselves.
 
Also another thing we may want to consider is what kind of game play we wish to focus on.

With decentralization we'd probably heavily invest as I've stated into intrigue (to deal with them plotting against us), soft power, and focus only on our central world. So our units and infrastructure will be smaller and more focused but we'd have less money to spend.

Centralization will create more powerful political blocks. Decisions will be standardized across our polity and we'll have a larger game then just our central planets.

Our approaches also empower a political party. War helps the Prometheanists, diplo the old nobles and money the art cast.

To some extent, maybe. But even in the most awful places, "make things better for your people with the tech we'll give you to make things better for your people with" as the price of entry to the club ought to engender some goodwill amongst the populace towards us. Compare that to directly being the outside invader who took the planet by force, and it should be pretty obvious that one of these approaches is going to lead to more burned bridges than the other.

Basically, I'm imagining a three-tier approach:

"Hey, new system. We're willing to give out access to ABC technology if you're willing to commit and affirm these basic pillars of sophont decency (we will in fact be checking), with a chaser of XYZ technology if you join the New Confederation as a member state (which comes with various other perks like a defensive alliance).

Path a): "My rule is not particularly reliant on atrocities to continue, and the increase in living standards that this technology will provide will buy me/my family/my clique/my government enough goodwill from the population to rule for centuries. I agree to the first exchange and will start working towards the second exchange."

Path b): "Due to ideological/cultural/personal hangups, I am not willing to join this outsider group. I might choose to accept the first exchange if the the pillars are not particularly onerous, or I may reject that too. In any case, I am willing to co-exist with this group in relative peace but will not join them."

Path c): "These basic pillars of sophont rights are antithetical to my continued rule, or I have ideological/cultural/personal hangups which make the mere existence of the New Confederation unacceptable to me. I will continue to flout the pillars and produce atrocities despite being given a clear path to avoid doing so, or will myself declare war upon the New Confederation.

Path a) is what I'm hoping we can accomplish within most systems - since even without relying on goodwill of any sort, we can largely produce an offer that is tempting for most leaders. Path b) is a reasonable state as well - if there's an enclave that is uninterested in joining but also isn't violently flensing people to make servitors or whatever, then sure, they don't have to join - we're reasonably likely to accomplish a cultural victory in the longterm anyhow as our growing polities art, language, trade, and noosphere connections, plus our willingness to be reasonable instead of going for violent annexation, lead to better diplomatic relations over time. In path c) we call in the stompy robots.
They're likely to join I'm not arguing thay but they're also likely to get greedy. At least if they're normal and aren't zealots they'll join and take the advantages while plotting on how to become king and aquire everything. We're also not going to be able to boss them around, so no standardization across the polity. They'll just take their things underground until they're ready to go public. Your approach is only enforceable if we have a way of monitoring everyone (Intrigue), enforcing it (in whatever form sanctions will take).

Edit: As for long term cultural victory. It's just as likely they see us as a threat to their lives. Like a cold war situation, paranoia doesn't have to be rational. Some of these can take other offers and at worst that offer being chaos.

Also a cultural victory requires some kind of contact. If they don't want to join they can just sit their unchanging. It's unlikely they'll take trade and the path to thay seems more on the money path then the diplo path.
 
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How will this work with centralization?

You would be negotiating for them to join your government proper, which is a policy that might appeal to some and not to others. It might not be the easiest sell but joining the nation as a constituent province with full and direct representation in parliament and with the expectation of equal investment is something that some would still accept to be a good trade off.

Not going to work they hate AI with a passion. They also don't think anyome but them should work on tech. You also have an agency that's basically a weaker inquisition trying to vet them. No way they allow it.

Do note, this is still the 30K Mechanicum. The Treaty of Olympus / Mars is very fresh in everyone's mind and the Emperor banning all the cool but potentially dangerous tech is being grudgingly accepted rather than accepted as inherent religious doctrine in this period. Those willing to dive into the creation and use of AI are pretty likely be the kind of folks who founded the Dark Mechanicum, but there's still probably a fair number of them willing to break from the more recent traditions only founded with the Great Crusade.
 
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