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Army of Liberty: a Fantasy Revolutionary Warfare Quest

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Nerdorama said:
If they charge the arty this turn, they're going to get blasted into the stone age next turn. It'd be a problem but that's not even a Pyrrhic victory again, it's sacrificing a rook to mildly inconvenience our queen.
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What? Thats absolutely not the case.

They have a 50% chance to destroy our artillery... completly, to the last hob if they charge

Them getting off a charge against our artillery is the absolute worst case, turning this entire battle into a strategic defeat



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[] Plan: Break The Humies
-[] 310th NE, E, E
-[] 81st Elven REST
-[] Hobgoblin Militia, rest and prepare in case you're needed to relieve lines.
-[] 41st Hob MELEE on Human Infantry 1
-[] 312th MELEE on Human Infantry 1

NSchwerte said:
Them getting off a charge against our artillery is the absolute worst case, turning this entire battle into a strategic defeat
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Tactical defeat. In a scenario where our entire force here and their entire force here died to the last man, it'd still be a strategic victory for us in that it'd hold the men off the road to attack the army's left flank. Like, the stakes are honestly pretty high.

But I don't think if two enemy units are meleeing them that they'd actually be able to do that much charging. It doesn't really make much sense, and there's frankly nothing we can do if they are charging? Short of throwing our cavalry into a charge and hoping we outrace them, which also doesn't make too much sense.

I think they'll focus on routing the Hobgoblins, IMO.
 
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The Laurent said:
Tactical defeat. In a scenario where our entire force here and their entire force here died to the last man, it'd still be a strategic victory for us in that it'd hold the men off the road to attack the army's left flank. Like, the stakes are honestly pretty high.

But I don't think if two enemy units are meleeing them that they'd actually be able to do that much charging. It doesn't really make much sense, and there's frankly nothing we can do if they are charging? Short of throwing our cavalry into a charge and hoping we outrace them, which also doesn't make too much sense.

I think they'll focus on routing the Hobgoblins, IMO.
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Unless there is conformation that they wont be able to charge, i think we definitly need to throw the cavalry into their way.

id rather lose an additional 50 infantry or cavalry than risk the chance of losing the entire artillery unit
 
I'm willing to put the Cavalry in the way, I guess, but having them Charge right now means they Rout again, and having them Rout again means we have no counter to the enemy Cavalry at all during the critical turns when they might be returning...
 
[] Plan: The Artillery must survive
-[] 310th NE, E, E
-[] 81st Elven NW,NE,NE,E,E,E,SE
-[] Hobgoblin Militia, rest and prepare in case you're needed to relieve lines.
-[] 41st Hob MELEE on Human Infantry 1
-[] 312th MELEE on Human Infantry 1

The Laurent said:
I'm willing to put the Cavalry in the way, I guess, but having them Charge right now means they Rout again, and having them Rout again means we have no counter to the enemy Cavalry at all during the critical turns when they might be returning...
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What do you mean? I doubt the enemy infantry are going to ready fire on the spot directly in front of the artillery for some reason. The cavalry should be pretty safe
 
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NSchwerte said:
[] Plan: The Artillery must survive
-[] 310th NE, E, E
-[] 81st Elven NW,NE,NE,E,E,E,SE
-[] Hobgoblin Militia, rest and prepare in case you're needed to relieve lines.
-[] 41st Hob MELEE on Human Infantry 1
-[] 312th MELEE on Human Infantry 1



What do you mean? I doubt the enemy infantry are going to ready fire on the spot directly in front of the artillery for some reason. The cavalry should be pretty safe
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I thought that Charges happened first? Like, in the order of resolution? Also, why not just go E, NE, E, E NE for the Cavalry? Allied units can move through each other.
 
Okay. I think we double-melee the humans then, which should rout them, or at least get them close enough that a cannon shot next turn will. The only other relevant unit right now is Half Mil 2 and unless they're mad enough lads to charge a potentially bracing force of Hogoblins, all they're going to do is a potshot with their garbage flintlocks.
 
The Laurent said:
I thought that Charges happened first? Like, in the order of resolution? Also, why not just go E, NE, E, E NE for the Cavalry? Allied units can move through each other.
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Fuck, yeah you are right, charges resolve first. If the humans charge we are dead but theres nothing we can actually do, so we should ignore the possibility and just hope they arent ready to do it.

oh yeah they can, i remembered photos answer to you wrongly

Nerdorama said:
Okay. I think we double-melee the humans then, which should rout them, or at least get them close enough that a cannon shot next turn will. The only other relevant unit right now is Half Mil 2 and unless they're mad enough lads to charge a potentially bracing force of Hogoblins, all they're going to do is a potshot with their garbage flintlocks.
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Double Meleeing the infantry is probably the superior option.

If we do not expect the halfling militia 2 to brace, charging in the 81th would be incredible valuable. Not only would we remove one enemy unit, routing them will also give the cavalry +1 cohesion, so its just 1 less cohesion than if they had rested


@Photomajig if a unit is attacked by an attacking and a charging unit, which is the first when it comes to the bracing counterattack?

Though I am worried about that cavalry unit that could charge our unbraced infantries
 
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Nerdorama said:
Okay. I think we double-melee the humans then, which should rout them, or at least get them close enough that a cannon shot next turn will. The only other relevant unit right now is Half Mil 2 and unless they're mad enough lads to charge a potentially bracing force of Hogoblins, all they're going to do is a potshot with their garbage flintlocks.
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Note, there's a good chance our Hobgoblins will Rout, the humans will probably also gang up on them, I suspect, and with 1 Cohesion left it won't take much to fail. But if the Human Infantry is dealt with, then everything else will be reasonably easy.

NSchwerte said:
Though I am worried about that cavalry unit that could charge our unbraced infantries
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As far as that goes, they're currently at Cohesion 2 (they rested once, last round), after having lost 40% of their forces. Narratively I think that has to make someone feel pretty cautious.
 
The Laurent said:
But I don't think if two enemy units are meleeing them that they'd actually be able to do that much charging. It doesn't really make much sense, and there's frankly nothing we can do if they are charging? Short of throwing our cavalry into a charge and hoping we outrace them, which also doesn't make too much sense.
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This is currently an issue, but it should be resolved with mid-Round Routing? In that case, your two meleeing units could make the enemy Rout before it has a chance to move its Charge movement. I'll clarify the resolution order of different actions in revisions. You can still argue that an Unit shouldn't be able to just walk away when engaged in melee, and this could also have some kind of 'enemy gets free attack if you try to Move away from melee engagement', but I'm not totally feeling that. There is a layer of abstraction over these things.

NSchwerte said:
@Photomajig if a unit is attacked by an attacking and a charging unit, which is the first when it comes to the bracing counterattack?

Though I am worried about that cavalry unit that could charge our unbraced infantries
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The attacking unit is the first. Attacking and Charging are resolved at the same time, but it stands to reason that the guys already there get to have the first go. Also, keep in mind that Units that are engaged in melee (are adjacent to an Unit they fought in melee on the previous round, marked by the yellow arrows on the map) cannot Brace. This allows you to pin down an enemy Unit and prevent them from Bracing against any other Units you can throw at 'em.
 
Photomajig said:
The attacking unit is the first. Attacking and Charging are resolved at the same time, but it stands to reason that the guys already there get to have the first go. Also, keep in mind that Units that are engaged in melee (are adjacent to an Unit they fought in melee on the previous round, marked by the yellow arrows on the map) cannot Brace. This allows you to pin down an enemy Unit and prevent them from Bracing against any other Units you can throw at 'em.
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Enemies can disengage to get bracing tho, its mostly useful if they are in cover and dont want to move away.


With this information i would like to propose a bit of a reshuffling:

The 41th Hobgoblins charge Halfling militia 2, routing them and either routing themselves if they are braced or getting +1 cohesion, but definitly removing the halflings.

The 312th attack the human infantry, taking up the counterattack if the humans are bracing

the 81th charges the human infantry, recieving no counterattack even if they are braced and likely routing them, getting an extra 1 cohesion, losing only 1 cohesion compared to just resting


This would remove all visible enemy units, gets the forward into a better position where they can spot hidden halfling units and means that we start next turn with the artillery set up to punish the cavalry while our troops take position in the village



 
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I did some visualisation of our LOS to check where Elv cav 1 could be hiding and its either to the complete south of the forests or behind the woods line.

@Photomajig how are hexes where units have partial line of sight handled? or is LOS handled only on the bases of hexes?

and if partial LOS works, does the red line in my image count?
 
NSchwerte said:
Enemies can disengage to get bracing tho, its mostly useful if they are in cover and dont want to move away.
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Certainly. But sometimes moving, whether voluntarily or through routing, opens up a gap in your lines for your enemy to smash a cavalry regiment through. It's not only a question of cover. Sometimes you need to hold the line; forcing an enemy to Disengage to capture a tactically important area or mission objective is already a pretty big win. This is also on the discussion earlier if it's the most optimal choice to throw Units back into the grinder after 1 turn of Rest. Maybe in a vacuum, but usually you have your lines and positions for a reason. And your reserves, in larger battles.

Units with higher maximum Cohesion can also take a lot more damage before Routing from Casualties. Imagine you have two Units with let's say 12/12 Cohesion. You plop one in front and one behind the first as a reserve. The front Unit sits there for 3 rounds, fighting, and takes enough hits that it drops to let's say 6/12 Cohesion, at which point you switch it around with the one in the rear. The first Unit now goes into the backline, where it can Rest until the replacement looks like it needs to be cycled out. Meanwhile, an enemy just throwing the same Unit at 2 Cohesion into it again and again is never going to break through, unless something really strange happens.

This battle is a bit deceptive in that there aren't that many Units involved and you can't cover most of the field (not to say that positioning isn't important, as you've noticed). Maximum Cohesions are also fairly low thanks to the lack of experienced Units.
 
NSchwerte said:
@Photomajig how are hexes where units have partial line of sight handled? or is LOS handled only on the bases of hexes?

and if partial LOS works, does the red line in my image count?
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Line of sight is counted from the center of a Hex to the center of another Hex. There's no partial LoS, if I understand you correctly. If you see into a part of a Hex unblocked, you see into the Hex. I'm also sorry to tell you that I'm colorblind and have no idea which one is the red line.

(EDIT: Consulted my seeing-eye girlfriend, I can answer the question now lol. The red line does not cross into the easternmost forest Hex, so it is not blocked by it. It's on the edge, but it needs to visibly cross inside the lines to count as being in the way of LoS.)
 
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Photomajig said:
Line of sight is counted from the center of a Hex to the center of another Hex. There's no partial LoS, if I understand you correctly. If you see into a part of a Hex unblocked, you see into the Hex. I'm also sorry to tell you that I'm colorblind and have no idea which one is the red line.

(EDIT: Consulted my seeing-eye girlfriend, I can answer the question now lol. The red line does not cross into the easternmost forest Hex, so it is not blocked by it. It's on the edge, but it needs to visibly cross inside the lines to count as being in the way of LoS.)
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How did the 81st get spotted?



[] Plan: Take Saintonge
-[] 310th Move NE, E, E
-[] 81st Elven Charge E, NE, E, NE, E, E, Charge Human Infantry 1, retreat (Where? North, North east into the village cover?)
-[] Hobgoblin Militia, rest and prepare in case you're needed to relieve lines.
-[] 41st Hob Charge Halfling SE, Militia 2
-[] 312th MELEE on Human Infantry 1

My proposed plan to shatter both enemy infantry sitting in Saintonge. I am not sure where we would want to move our cavalry after the charge, under cover in the east or west of the village or maybe in the north on the plains to be farther away?
 
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NSchwerte said:
How did the 81st get spotted?
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Excellent question! It should not have been. Though the line of sight calculation there presents a problem. Hum Inf 1 cannot see into the Hex with the 310th in it due to the line crossing the forest Hex to its E, but it does technically have line of sight to the 81st... except that that line of sight is blocked by the 310th, which it cannot see.

Yeah, I see the problem. Another thing on the revision list. Probably going to amend the ruling to: if you can draw a line from the center of your Hex to any point in the target Hex without crossing a blocking Hex, you can see it. That's going to be a bit finicky, though, hmh.
 
After catching up on things, Schwerte's plan looks good for what we've got, but after taking a look at the LOS chart, I realized that we've (mostly I've) made a serious and possibly unrecoverable error, namely that we can't see Elv Cav 1, but, because sight is shared, they can see the 5th, which means they can easily charge them from inside or south of the southern forest, or even behind the woods if that's where they retreated to.

This is actually a huge problem if the enemy commander has half a brain, because a charge from ambush on setting-up artillery is going to be insanely effective even with the mild defensive bonuses from a village, and as established, arty has a measly 50 HP. Elv Cav 1 taking a total of -30 to hit (-10 from terrain, doubled for cav, -10 from damage) makes this not a certain disaster, but it has a potential for badness. Hopefully we get lucky, or failing that the 41st intercepts them with their own long charge, but lesson learned, don't leave artillery without at least a couple of adjacent blockers.

And again, I don't really see anything else we can do about it, and hitting everyone in range right now is probably a good use of our time, so I'm for NSchwerte's most recent revision.
 
Nerdorama said:
Elv Cav 1 taking a total of -30 to hit (-10 from terrain, doubled for cav, -10 from damage) makes this not a certain disaster, but it has a potential for badness.
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They are trained, so their net modifier is actually -10. Which means that it is a certain disaster if they come, but just like with the humans I don't think there is a way to prevent it.

Tbh I don't think there is a way to prevent the enemy from charging and destroying our artillery with cav in its position if they wanted to, cav is just too mobile and can approach from so many angles

To demonstrate what I mean, this is a map of all spots that would allow a cavalry unit to charge our artillery even though the purple spaces are blocked

 
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Yeah misread a value again.

Honestly a slight nerf to Cavalry move might be in order since it's so high it's hard to plan around right now, or a general increase in the cost of rough terrain (maybe putting forests at 3 instead of 2, making flat terrain more valuable for cav and having forests take up a whole move action for inf). Also, while I hate to try and buff our specialty unit when it's never even taken damage yet, Artillery having 5% of the hit points of infantry is...really punishing toward any kind of risk-taking, at least on my present assumed logic that 100% casualties is as good as knocking a unit back to Green, as well as taking it entirely out of the current battle.
 
Nerdorama said:
Honestly a slight nerf to Cavalry move might be in order since it's so high it's hard to plan around right now, or a general increase in the cost of rough terrain (maybe putting forests at 3 instead of 2, making flat terrain more valuable for cav and having forests take up a whole move action for inf). Also, while I hate to try and buff our specialty unit when it's never even taken damage yet, Artillery having 5% of the hit points of infantry is...really punishing toward any kind of risk-taking, at least on my present assumed logic that 100% casualties is as good as knocking a unit back to Green, as well as taking it entirely out of the current battle.
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You may have a point about cavalry. I've already noted various nerfs for revisions, but additional terrain penalties or lowered Movement might be prudent. Artillery is not going to get any more durable, though. It's meant to be fragile; that's why it sits behind lines and generally has someone protecting it. But since the greatest danger to artillery is the mobility of cavalry, I think weakening cavalry will already do wonders in that regard. Mid-Round Routing will also help, if you have reason to suspect a cavalry attack and can prepare for it with Ready Fire. Some kind of Ready Charge action (charge anyone who enters within 400m, for example) might also be useful for defensive cavalry screens.

Soon we'll have this battle in the bag, I expect, and I can actually work all these revisions in. Bear with some awkwardness until then.
 
[X] Plan: Take Saintonge (Tweaked)
-[X] 310th Hum: Move NE, E, E
-[X] 81st Elven: CHARGE Human Inf. 1 (E->NE x3->E->SE->E) (After Charge: W)
-[X] 41st Hob: CHARGE Halfling Militia 2 (SE)
-[X] 312th Hum: ATTACK Human Infantry 1
-[X] 5th Hob. Horse Art.: SET UP
-[X] Hob. Militia: Rest and prepare to be needed to relieve lines.

You can't move cavalry through our artillery, which is what Nschwerte's plan would have done, so I just made the tweak there. And the after move would be one west to continue to shield the artillery and break space for another charge.
 
MrRageQuit said:
[X] Plan: Take Saintonge (Tweaked)
-[X] 310th Hum: Move NE, E, E
-[X] 81st Elven: CHARGE Human Inf. 1 (E->NE x3->E->SE->E) (After Charge: W)
-[X] 41st Hob: CHARGE Halfling Militia 2 (SE)
-[X] 312th Hum: ATTACK Human Infantry 1
-[X] 5th Hob. Horse Art.: SET UP
-[X] Hob. Militia: Rest and prepare to be needed to relieve lines.

You can't move cavalry through our artillery, which is what Nschwerte's plan would have done, so I just made the tweak there. And the after move would be one west to continue to shield the artillery and break space for another charge.
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Um, where does it say that, just to be clear?
 
MrRageQuit said:
Because the rules specify: "Routed Units can move into the space of their allies and vice versa" but doesn't say the same for normal Units.
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This is correct, though moving through allies at extra movement cost is a possible revision. The confusion might stem from earlier rounds where Units have moved into Hexes that an allied Unit moves away from on that same Round, which is valid.
 
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