You're forgetting about all of the fishing related advancements (Hungers one consistent enjoyable hobby), that gave disproportionate Accursed favor. If you look at it through the lens that the Accursed does not want his cursebearers to suffer, those discrepancies start to make sense. Same with freedom, which is Hunger essentially stepping away and living a happy life, the Accursed is happy that Hunger gets his happy ending. But that does not mean it is the best path forward, it is simply the easiest one.
But would Hunger personally have a hard time with Vengeance? It's literally the only thing we've ever seen him do, or try, or consider. He's so deep into his fugue for most of the story that we only know his personal opinions otherwise through how he responded to others in relatable situations.

I think that Freedom is considered by the Accursed to be genuine, successful mitigation of the Apocryphal Curse. It's not going to make the thing disappear for everyone forever, but it does banish the stupid thing from local meta-narrative from there onward. This would have implications about how Curses and their mitigation works, but frankly we don't have a lot of hard data on the subject.
 
Name one fishing advancement other then exactly Fisher King that grants Accursed favor. Actually, name one fishing advancement other then Fisher King period, aside from the one joke artifact vote early in the quest

Apologies, I went searching for another example and came up blank. The hiatus has not been kind to my memory. I think there's small amounts of evidence that the accursed supports his cursebearers following through with their hobbies, but I was wrong that there is a clear pattern.

I think that Freedom is considered by the Accursed to be genuine, successful mitigation of the Apocryphal Curse. It's not going to make the thing disappear for everyone forever, but it does banish the stupid thing from local meta-narrative from there onward. This would have implications about how Curses and their mitigation works, but frankly we don't have a lot of hard data on the subject.

That combined with this leads me to believe even further however, that Hungers inevitable betrayal in Vengeance is not the main reason the Accursed approves of it so heavy. If one considers this option to be full mitigation of apo, then it make sense why he would push for it. Like DkArthas said, the Accursed gets to hedge his bets. I'd like to believe in Hunger one more time though. He hasn't failed us yet.
 
That's a good point actually. If you think about it, Freedom is kinda cheating the system a bit. Hunger got to abuse Progression like crazy, scale way beyond the starting power of a Combat-Class Cursebearer, pick up powerful growth abilities like the Imperial Praxis and Fault-Defeating Stance plus Archmage - and then graduate into being a Combat-Class with heavy pre-existing Curse mitigation and absurd potential for a Combat-Class.

And he gets his wife and kid back, which would have eaten a big chunk of his Primary Remittance if he'd started as a Combat Type.

Maybe the Accursed just wants to cash out before he loses these absurd gains. Know when to walk away with your winnings and what not.
 
Accursed Favor is given by options Accursed likes. Favors, as it were. Such as taking more Curses just because, going beyond mitigating Curses, or getting baited into not fulfilling your potential to make world the better place by combination of Maiden, Hidden Ones and Apo getting your deserved heroic rest*. It is kinda hilarious how Freedom manages to have Hunger completely fold to basically all major villains we fought against through the quest.

*Haeliel disagrees, and she is Seraph of Heroism, so I guess she is more qualified to talk there than I am
I think that Freedom is considered by the Accursed to be genuine, successful mitigation of the Apocryphal Curse.
It is not, you just give it back to Accursed, so some other non-Hunger Cursebearer will have to pick up slack elsewhere. Which is infinitely worse than Hunger Cursebearer dealing with Apo, of course...
.. you know, why don't we overcharge our clones into being valid Curse targets, now that I think about it? We could basically artificially increase our Curse load on our own, and because we are Hunger we can take it on. Just take on milionfold curses.
 
Accursed Favor is given by options Accursed likes. Favors, as it were. Such as taking more Curses just because, going beyond mitigating Curses, or getting baited into not fulfilling your potential to make world the better place by combination of Maiden, Hidden Ones and Apo getting your deserved heroic rest*. It is kinda hilarious how Freedom manages to have Hunger completely fold to basically all major villains we fought against through the quest.

*Haeliel disagrees, and she is Seraph of Heroism, so I guess she is more qualified to talk there than I am

It is not, you just give it back to Accursed, so some other non-Hunger Cursebearer will have to pick up slack elsewhere. Which is infinitely worse than Hunger Cursebearer dealing with Apo, of course...
.. you know, why don't we overcharge our clones into being valid Curse targets, now that I think about it? We could basically artificially increase our Curse load on our own, and because we are Hunger we can take it on. Just take on milionfold curses.
This is The Tactic. Hunger's Armies of the Shogun advancement from Blood Halo calls out "hive-mind creature swarm" as an informal association which qualifies. Hunger needs to become a Cursebearer swarm creature.

The evidence from R's threadmark is that one of the CYOA options includes an echo of Hunger that is a Combat Type CB with Gisena + Ring + Forebear's Blade but also a copy of Indenture, Tyrant, and Decimator.

This also fits with another hint from R: that The Tactic would partially remove the benefit of Vengeance, which mentions Devouring War as a Decimator mitigation. Increasing the number of Hunger Clones would offset that benefit because of the added sources of decimation.

Edit: The final hint is that Orm is the one who came the closest to suggesting The Tactic in the last ~100 pages. do @Orm Embar or @LordOfMurder remember seeing 'Hunger Clone shenanigans' in any of Orm's posts?
 
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It is not, you just give it back to Accursed, so some other non-Hunger Cursebearer will have to pick up slack elsewhere. Which is infinitely worse than Hunger Cursebearer dealing with Apo, of course...
Not really. In either case, the Apocryphal Curse remains a menace to curse-bearing society. Hunger reaching Tier VI+ mitigation isn't going to do much for any other hopefuls who take it up, that's not how the deal works. Conversely, by removing himself from its sphere of influence entirely, he may be able to serve more openly as a sponsor in the Cursebearer's Association. That would be a net gain.

But if I might set aside the convenience intrinsic to Occam's Razor for a second: we never really tried to understand Curses beyond measuring the cost/benefit on their mitigation. Our information is limited to scattered lines across multiple stories, a lot of discord posts, and an immeasurable quantity of devil's advocacy. Unless clarification on how Curseweft operates on a metaphysical level was provided at some point, we're going to have to operate on unproven and inexact models until we get better data.
 
Unless clarification on how Curseweft operates on a metaphysical level was provided at some point
We do know that the Apocryphal fears 'being mitigated for real' which indicates that normal mitigation do not 'truly' mitigate them (in a way they 'care' about). 'Regular' mitigation of Apocryphal and Decimation didn't generate Accursed favor, but Serendipity and Foremost Blade (which also outright states that it opens a path to 'true' mitigation) did.
 
I'm astonished how basically everything from Vengeance got at one point questioned by someone in the thread.

Achieving the whole point of choosing the option and acting like it's impossible instead of just very hard, the Curse being not that important when lifted, the Curse not being lifted fully if it happens.

Well I guess that is just vote discussion.
 
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Not really. In either case, the Apocryphal Curse remains a menace to curse-bearing society. Hunger reaching Tier VI+ mitigation isn't going to do much for any other hopefuls who take it up, that's not how the deal works. Conversely, by removing himself from its sphere of influence entirely, he may be able to serve more openly as a sponsor in the Cursebearer's Association. That would be a net gain.
It is literally how the deals works though. You take Accursed burden, and a portion of his power. By letting go of that, both go back to Accursed, to burden Accursed anew until new Cursebearer gets them. And we saw how normal Cursebearers deal with Apocrypha - Wolber who was noted to be exceptionally smart when it comes to Apo got crushed under it with ease. We would be moving Apo from someone who is exceptionally good at dealing with it, to some rando. It is a huge win for Apo on greater scale.

And really, this requires furtherer discussion. Every step of mitigation requires more from the Cursebearer, and it is likely that Haeliel accomplishing eight step of Apo mitigation did more for Accursed than all other subVIII Cursebearers with that Curse put together. It is arguable, even, that getting Apo mitigation to that level is more important to Accursed than wholly removing Tyrant. Hunger is one of the precious few that have a chance to not only remove Tyrant, but to also achieve full mitigation of a Crown Curse. That is a huge deal.

Fact that we are on tail end of Apo proc that ends with Hunger giving up on his chances of removing Tyrant or mitigating Apo just because Apo goes "teehee, this ending is fun" should be a major red flag for everyone involved. The entire point of this multiversal struggle is using power given by Accursed to shoulder his burdens. And we are being neutered as a combatant, with some rando being forced to shoulder our burdens instead.
We do know that the Apocryphal fears 'being mitigated for real' which indicates that normal mitigation do not 'truly' mitigate them (in a way they 'care' about). 'Regular' mitigation of Apocryphal and Decimation didn't generate Accursed favor, but Serendipity and Foremost Blade (which also outright states that it opens a path to 'true' mitigation) did.
That is because those were "go beyond" mitigations. We put in Arete, Accursed gives us thumbs up because we did good about thing he cares about, incentivizing us to put in more effort into mitigating Curses.
Normal mitigation works just fine, the more HCB with stage VIII Apocrypha, the less fun times for mr. Accursed.

E: Haeliel is actually at stage VII Apo
 
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Well it depends on how you view it. In a narrative sense, we are not the one making the decision, hunger is. If Hunger chooses Freedom, he is making a selfish decision to abandon the Accursed in his battles. To pretend that that option is Hunger repaying his debt to the Accursed is laughable, especially if with the same hand you paint Vengeance as the true betrayal.
I'd say that insofar as Hungers decision of freedom depends on the Accursed requesting he select freedom, it's rather strange to say 'doing what the Accursed asked, because the Accursed asked and Hunger owes the Accursed' is a betrayal. You can propose a version of Hunger whose reasoning ignores the Accursed- who selfishly picks Freedom without care for the Accursed's wishes and is in doing so betraying the accursed because Vengance is more fitting absent such statements- but there's not been an indication that Hunger's choice is so greatly overdetermined as to make this valid. at least some of the votes for freedom depend on the Accursed's request, and the vote is close enough that if Freedom does win, those votes will likely have been a requirement thereof, so taking the structure of the vote as analogous to Hunger's decision weights, it cannot be a betrayal.
 
The Accursed asks for a 'favor', to allow his champion to rest. But is granting such a request correct? Let this be said, before anyone accuses Hunger of hubris, that per the tags of the quest - hubris is a coward's word. The Accursed asking Hunger to give up Progression and accept 'Freedom' isn't some masterful stroke of a plan, nor is it objectively the best way forwards to a kinder world: it's the Accursed doing Hunger another favor by relieving him of burdens and allowing him to quietly rest. It is hubris and tyranny on the part of the Accursed to think such an action is the best course, because he is bound by and pulled down by those same inflictions. But to be saved isn't the purpose of a Cursebearer at all, least of all those vaunted elite who bear the emblem of Heaven, the power of Progression unlimited. It is the opposite, the collective effort of the Cursebearers given solely to provide freedom to the Accursed and save the world. It is their ultimate purpose to relieve a portion of the immense tribulations by which the Accursed is diminished, to mitigate their respective portion of Curses and thereby earn their gifted power.

And Hunger is no mere Cursebearer, but the very person who once was a Cursegiver, the embodiment of tyranny such that he inflicted the self-same Doom upon the Accursed. There may be literally no better person in the omniverse more suited to the task of undoing such a Curse than Hunger now, possibly in the long future as well. The Accursed isn't perfect, far from it. Maybe, once upon a time when he was not so diminished, his effectiveness and efficacy could be trusted in wholeheartedly, but he is under the pressure of countless Curses, for which even the slightest sliver of each can totally distort one's ideation of thought. And even before that, the Accursed was self-sacrificing at the core, spending of himself to oppose the world and better it. Even more so than heeding his words, should Hunger not emulate his actions? The Accursed is no arbiter of absolute righteousness, but he represents something more pure: the ideal of bettering yourself and bettering the world, as a result. And by his example, should Hunger not give once more, so that the person who has given so much already and will continue to do so much more for everyone else, may yet finally accomplish that grand ambition and attain their shared dream?

People view Vengeance as something grim or dark, but I think that's far too fatalistic. The Praxis is a dream of fairness, defiance blazing brightly against the universe until the world is forced to care. To walk the path incurs much suffering, but when one chooses to do so, can there be anything more admirable? This is the chance to truly and permanently improve the world, to allow the Accursed to become closer to what he once was and thereby come so much closer to the ideal universe that was dreamed of. That is progress not measured by the span of lives, nor whole multiverses, but infinities upon infinities of effort from countless Cursebearers working to mitigate their lord's burdens. And to one day wholly remove him of such a torment? That is a trial well-worth undertaking and one for which Hunger is very possibly the best suited individual in all of infinity for. As said, this is the final test, let Hunger show the world, the Accursed, the Hidden Ones, show them all, that he has the ability to pass it.

The Forebear was forced to undergo the Procession of Worlds, a journey that broke and reforged him into something unyielding, but still ultimately a pawn of the Hidden Ones. That is nothing less than injustice, an evil by which they diminished the Accursed and prevented the ascendance of the Victorious World. If not for Hunger, who shall become their executioner? Should they be able to escape their rightful punishment? There is no better individual than Hunger, once implement of their machinations now transformed into the implement of their demise, the Imprisoner himself to deliver their just desserts. They considered the Forebear to be an excellent puppet? Well then, let them be strangled by the strings of their own folly. Hunger represents a hope by which the Forebear can avenge not only himself, but every casualty, every lost world, every victim, and cast down the Hidden Ones into the abyss of their own making. Perhaps, this can't be called true justice either, but in the long dark of the universe, justice remains sleeping and Vengeance is a most appropriate substitute.

I've seen the opinion that Vengeance is an empty path, that it means Hunger lives devoid of anything but purpose, but it isn't about that. It's living with purpose, with that primary ambition elevated but the vigors of life are ever as powerful. The nature of blood is to run hot and passions are innate to the Ring of Hunger. Hunger is not only the Forebear; he is the Forebear Returned. He carries Blade, Ring and Mantle, balanced by a trinity of artifacts. In the quest itself we've seen him form bonds, lasting relationships, cultivate hobbies and enjoy himself outside the context of battle or preparing for battle. After all, what he would have been most attuned to would be the domain of the Fisher. And in a trillion years of life, surely there will be whole lifetimes for him to pursue joyous endeavours and past-times. The Forebear of Dynasties certainly found building empires that would improve upon those wretched worlds he came upon to be a worthwhile hobby. Hunger seems to take joy from things that are purely personal, and clearly that's an improvement over the Forebear. He is not Odyssial, not even quite Sesus Ulyssian (though I definitely wish he was!). Hunger understands the value of training, takes great joy in amassing power because it means that he has tried his utmost. The act of trying his best, of committing everything is what he finds most enriching.

I don't think that the Forebear was wrong. Certainly, Ruin Incarnate may cast a shadow upon things where things may proceed to an end. But that isn't bad. The nature of the Accursed is that of the End of Stories, a final happy ending to everyone and everything. And though, the rule of the Forebear Returned will come to a close, that ending is so far and away as to be nearly indistinguishable for eternity. Even the soldiers of the Channeler Legions, who experienced mere subjective millennia were entirely happy to offer their lives to support Hunger and protect the Human Sphere in his battle, and though a gentle passing may befall his subjects in a vigintillion eons, that's something I believe people within the universe would be totally willing to accept. But if the working of the victorious world were to come to fruition before then, which Vengeance pushes towards, that would not even be a concern. Entropy itself is not a bad thing; I firmly view it as a superior alternative to the probable natural state of reality in the Rihaku-verse where bleak worlds like those of the Procession seem to spring from the ether. Clearly, the world bends towards to darker times and given that the power of those good-aligned entities like Haeliel are not so vast as to encompass all of reality, the help the Forebear would bring to play would be incredibly valuable. Power begets power, and as seen from all the other quests we've engaged in before, with enough strength, consequences will slide away in time (as most exemplified by Nameless). Why not accept the gift of ultimate power beyond all reason (x2, with Blood Halo!!) and leverage that strength to help the world as much as we can, as quickly as possible?

More than anything else, I wish for Hunger to stay true to himself, to move forwards and not look back - not because he's cast aside his past, but because his aim is towards the betterment of the future. His decisions throughout the quest have spoken of specific themes: heroism, daring (nigh-recklessness), commitment and sheer will. It is not in his nature to do anything but his Uttermost, and upon this stage before his final test, Hunger can only try. Try to become stronger, try to free the Accursed, try to attain Vengeance and try to bring about a kinder world.

The first choice Hunger made was Vengeance and here and now after 169 updates, I can wholeheartedly declare my belief that it wasn't the wrong choice. And if every story spoken has been spoken before, why not speak again this story Hunger chose as a new beginning, as an ending that begins another story. After all, it's proven itself to be a great one.

Above was 1487 words. One last attempt to mine Arete before the end. Maybe, I'll comment on the Doom of the Tyrant and how it's the absolute best thing to have happened to the questers ever but for now, this is alright with me.
 
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Anyway, to address the only real argument Freedom crowd keeps bringing up:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jofNR_WkoCE

What does Accursed say:
++++++++++Accursed Favor
Entirety of Freedom argument is predicated of Freedom having more Accursed Favor, Accursed being smart, therefore Freedom being good. This is nonsensical for number of reasons, all of which will be addressed here:
  • To begin with, main argument is "Vengeance is a trap option because Freedom has more Favor" which is of course completely nonsensical because Favor merely indicates Accursed preference to particular option, and not disagreement with the other one
  • This is of course reinforced by Vengeance having Accursed Favor as well - it is clearly a path Accursed agrees with, even if he would prefer the other outcome for whatever reason
  • Big thing for Vengeance is that Vengeance also has +5 Haeliel Favor. Not only that this Favor is directly more impactful to us given that we have taken her Advancements(and indeed have opportunity to get more in the future), but we have two different agents preferring Vengeance as opposed to one for Freedom, which is important as Haeliel is less compromised party given that she doesn't have ton of decision altering curses and prior biases Accursed does while being on the same tier of decision making from our standpoint
  • Finally, and most importantly, Fisher King exists. Remember Fisher King? Most of you guys probably don't because we have never used it, and it is in general janky sort of mitigation that is like third layer of our Decimator mitigation strategy at best. That fucking thing had the same amount of Favor as Freedom, which is exactly why we got it, Favor is just a great stat to have. It is also undeniable proof that just because option has a ton of Accursed Favor, doesn't mean it is a good option
Argument could also be made that in case we passed on Fisher King, we would have had total of +12 Accursed Favor from Vengeance since it would give us access to Fisher King, although that it more of a hypothetical at this point
 
Has anyone considered that it requires a mighty great amount of word-twisting or reaching arguments to convert an option with +10 Accursed Favor into betraying the Accursed?
 
Now I don't think the freedom side should start accusing others of reaching arguments or interpretation something their way.

I don't think either side has not done that by now.
 
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But yeah, sad fact of the matter is that Fisher King alone completely torpedoes any Accursed Favor based argument. I am the one who made plans on how to use that Advancement and even I am ready to admit that outside of +10 Favor, Fisher King is kinda stinky.

Get it? Because fishes stink, heh
 
It is literally how the deals works though. You take Accursed burden, and a portion of his power. By letting go of that, both go back to Accursed, to burden Accursed anew until new Cursebearer gets them. And we saw how normal Cursebearers deal with Apocrypha - Wolber who was noted to be exceptionally smart when it comes to Apo got crushed under it with ease. We would be moving Apo from someone who is exceptionally good at dealing with it, to some rando. It is a huge win for Apo on greater scale.

And really, this requires furtherer discussion. Every step of mitigation requires more from the Cursebearer, and it is likely that Haeliel accomplishing eight step of Apo mitigation did more for Accursed than all other subVIII Cursebearers with that Curse put together. It is arguable, even, that getting Apo mitigation to that level is more important to Accursed than wholly removing Tyrant. Hunger is one of the precious few that have a chance to not only remove Tyrant, but to also achieve full mitigation of a Crown Curse. That is a huge deal.

Fact that we are on tail end of Apo proc that ends with Hunger giving up on his chances of removing Tyrant or mitigating Apo just because Apo goes "teehee, this ending is fun" should be a major red flag for everyone involved. The entire point of this multiversal struggle is using power given by Accursed to shoulder his burdens. And we are being neutered as a combatant, with some rando being forced to shoulder our burdens instead.
Nope! I am going to have to disagree on a fundamental, mathematical level here. It does not work that way, because while the words you said to lead into the statement were correct, your conclusion does not follow. No matter how masterful your mitigation of any Curse, that only lessens its burden upon the Accursed. Until it's gone and for good, every cursebearer who undertakes it gets the same deal with the same costs they'll be expected to pay in as tithe.

We know this because Hunger was doing the same thing with his Universes inside of Novakhron. The Overlord option in Winter Dynasty implies it's not even rare or odd, but just a thing impossibly powerful bastards do in this cosmology. That a random person might hypothetically scale really well doesn't matter to anyone but that person, and the poor bastards that surround them.

And that you believe we have managed to fucking intimidate the Bane of Heroes is... pfft. I can't really see it, she's basically making fun of us - the voters, arete miners, and paying backers - for the entire story. The digital waterfall doesn't scare her, and that's been the source of Hunger's rapid progression. He's not a big deal to her; and why should he be, every hero has some over-the-top backstory to rationalize the audience's craving for glory and excitement. She gatekeeps that shit for a living.
 
I haven't been keeping up with the thread much, if at all, and I've only skimmed the discussion over some of the pages since the update, but I've gotta go with:

[X] Vengeance

Ultimately, the benefits brought by further curse mitigation and a slim possibility of outright removing the Doom of Tyranny are too great to ignore. There is much work that needs to be done to bring about the Victorious World, after all, and as the vote option itself says Hunger has proven to be exceptionally capable of carrying his burdens.
 
It is also entire possible that killing the Forebear in truth (Freedom obviates all possibility of the Forebear being reborn) in itself provides substantial Doom of the Tyrant mitigation. We know that conceptually aligned forces can provide far greater mitigation - Notice how Ending True provided effective Stage 4 Mitigation for the Geas. One can hardly imagine a a more conceptually aligned source of mitigation than the Tyrant himself turning away from his own Doom.

Or I suppose we could roll the dice and hope for a couple of natural 100s.
 
[ ] Elixir (all picks, 20 Arete) - Feat: Reckoner, adding .375 Rank and upgrades Edeldross to 25-point version. A rare Advancement. Sufficient refinement of Edeldross can create a substance ontologically equivalent to findross in potency but different in character: fairer, nobler and brighter, a power not for shining paragons but for heroes of legend; not the pristine beauty of the stars, but the blinding incandescence of the Sun itself!

*In conjunction with the Ring of Blood, allows Hunger to induce the Fairbright Bloodline in himself once his effective Blood Rank exceeds 8.0. If successful, mitigates the Apocryphal Curse by one half-stage.
*Vastly expands the space of possible Graces and enormously expands their potency.
*Does not disqualify Hunger for Trinity later, as Arete spend towards his Element is not classified as belonging to any one Artifact.
*Edeldross can now heal Hunger's eye, liver, and lung. Discounts Final Form by 7 (!) Arete.
*Hunger will learn what the Fairbright Bloodline actually does. --Heartlessness.
*Lucenthorne shall seek you as an ally, for any who wields the Fairbright Essence cannot be its enemy. You need not wield it personally; it has resided in the hands of ruler and champion both.

"Quack"
 
It's pretty odd to see people who didn't vote for a 5 pick maiden vote for Vengeance.

Back when Hunger could improve his chances at gaining HCB-status, and could influence his chances against the maiden, people weren't willing to take the risk.

Now, when Hunger's chances are known and known to be at most 1 percent, people are all in.
 
I'm more weirded out by the simping for Haeliel that gets brought up from time to time. Like, we've met her once. She's cool, but we know about as much about her as Catherine - and we sure as hell didn't spend as many Arete on her as our sponsor.
 
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