- Location
- Pindorama
I don't think Procession had a 1% chance of escape. Wildly less so in fact, and unlike the Procession the Indenture has an end date!
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- US
To be fair, horribleness and difficulty are commonly equated in conversation. (But in this case they aren't the same, yeah.)
Anyways, I see what you mean, though I'd argue that by virtue of escalation, Apo + Indenture may exceed the Procession in horribleness purely incidentally, rather than through deliberate intent.
ISH X+1 horribleness contained in an Apocryphal proc via passive scaling would be worse than ISH X horribleness deliberately placed by the Hidden Ones, etc etc.
Sure, however it is more that Hunger would go out of his way to solve super hells anyway because, well, solving super hells is kinda a great thing to do and someone's gotta do it.
Overall Mental Stability shouldn't be an issue thanks to all the things we did specifically to make it work. The actual issue with getting to HCB teritory is not mental stability, or Hunger and Gisena being dumbasses and becoming what he hates the most because that is super hard to predict. The issue is that:
getting there is just plain difficult. Hunger can do it, of course, but even if Hunger fails and dies at some point, its not that big of a deal. We did our best, we did ton of good across the multitudes and we had a good run. Or we do the possible, and take a curse off Accursed. A win win either way.
- Location
- US
The 0.1-1% is after considering that the Forebear is someone who triumphed over the Procession, to clarify.
Indenture + Apo doesn't really have anywhere as favorable odds otherwise. Crowning Curses be like that.
Last edited:
Cutting out the Doom of the Tyrant doesn't interest me at all, and I consider Hunger's interactions with the Apocryphal Curse to have peaked completely as of the Maiden fight.
So no, it's not clear. Long-term curse mitigation is fucking cosmic accounting, how the hell is that infinitely more interesting than anything?
Because Accursed not having Tyrant impacts all AST related stuff onwards, while being Nameless 2.0 is just being Nameless 2.0
It only impacts future AST content as much as the Tyrant's Doom impacted them in the first place. We didn't even know it existed until this quest.
- Location
- Peterborough, NH, USA
The Accursed is bound by countless Curses by his own admission. Hence his title. It's possible that a hard-to-mitigate Curse being completely removed would allow for a domino effect to take place to some degree, but I personally doubt any non-Crowning Curse would manage that.
Aabcehmu
Confusion as a Natural State of Being
- Location
- Chicago, IL
- Pronouns
- Any/All
IIRC one notable example of getting rid of one curse having knock-on effects is the Tyrant's Doom and Brand of the Champion having massive anti-synergy, so it's possible that removing the Tyrant's Doom would, consequently, enable the Accursed to complete many more quests given to him by Champion procs, and thus acquire much more help in further mitigating his curses.
WHISPER
IS VERY TRANQUIL!
Now guys I know both sides has their reasons but you can't honestly be starting the though "oh even if we manage to free the Accursed from a whole curse, it doesn't matter anyway because the curse is so small and insignificant".
Freeing the big man Accursed from any curse fully is a big step to the ultimate happy end .
Freeing the big man Accursed from any curse fully is a big step to the ultimate happy end .
Last edited:
Tyrant's Doom is likely the most impactful non-Crown curse we can get rid of(Decimator is up there, but Decimator seems much easier to mitigate with effort, and at Accursed level its effects likely just abstracted to "universe is a bit worse place to live"). Tyrant actually fundamentally how Accursed can approach both his allies and other relatively peer entities, and giving Accursed more agency is just beyond valuable.
I don't think it is too arrogant to say that successful removal of Tyrant might start sequence of events that would eventually lead to Victorious World. Not taking a chance now that we have been offered it would just be criminal.
- Location
- 1
I'm pretty sure the low-impact side is arguing the effects on narratives we read are small and insignificant because most Rihaku quests- this specific quest literally about the reincarnation of the originator of the Doom of Tyranny aside- don't directly contain the Doom of Tyranny nor have substantial worldbuilding elements informed by the specific detail 'the Accursed is restricted by the doom of Tyranny in particular, other curses aside'.
They agree the effect on the Accursed is principally massive, but not that this massive effect actually substantially changes our future experiences as voters and readers.
- Location
- Peterborough, NH, USA
I mean, I could certainly see the energy from Tyrant being redirected to another Curse(like the Brand of the Champion quests Aab proposed) giving him a lot of leeway to act overall, but it's unlikely we'll see much of that ourselves.
WHISPER
IS VERY TRANQUIL!
Even if thats true it's also not wrong for people to not care if it has a big future quest impact beyond being a step in achieving the good end.
It's understanble but it's also not wrong to look at the choice and say it's worth it for what it helps create, not for being really noticeable after.
Basically not everything's worth is tied to having "cameos" in the "mcu"... at least for me.
Last edited:
- Location
- 1
to be clear- I'm not arguing either side is right or wrong; I'd probably be voting for Vengeance if the Accursed didn't explicitly desire freedom not just as preference but favor repaid. Each perspective is valid by the simple dint of being endorsed by their endorsers; it's just that the interpretation, "oh even if we manage to free the Accursed from a whole curse, it doesn't matter anyway because the curse is so small and insignificant", is very probably an inaccurate description of the perspective it's attempting to describe, so I described what I believe that perspective would be more likely to endorse in hopes of reducing the implied misunderstanding.
I don't think I can convince anyone here, but since I keep seeing people bring up how unlikely the chance of Vengeance succeeding from the opening of the quest was, I want to point out my perspective on it.
I do not and have never cared about reaching High Cursebearer status. I only came in by the Elixer Springs, but even at that point there was not yet any indication of how high powered the Forebear and Hidden Ones we're, at least that I could notice. My reading of the situation, even at that point, was that it would take a few centuries to reach the level of power we have actually raised Hunger to by this final battle, but that that would already be enough to handle finding and killing the beings who would actually bother to Isekai a person from Earth into a fairly low powered high fantasy setting. I also figured we had a 30-50% chance of setting him up to survive that long into the epilogue, with less than 1% of lasting 10,000 years and an infinitesimal (if still non-zero) chance of finishing the entire Indenture.
And I also believe (still) that the Hunger of quest start would have been happy with that. Killing the rulers of a non-infinite multiverse that is so generally shitty and who ruined every positive thing about his personal life, in return for downgrading a life where a nonillion years is expected to be a significant portion but not all of it to one where he'd probably die in less than a million despite all his effort? Not realizing how powerful the Hidden Ones actually are and just how much he could scale, the same way I didn't, I don't think he would have seen that as a bad trade. With that understanding of the scaling in my mind, I would absolutely have voted for Vengeance at quest start.
But the fact that the revenge he seems actually needs him to reach the level of a High Cursebearer? Even with how ridiculously high we've raised the chance of that compared to even what is considered reasonable for Progression Type Cursebearers, it's still not something I view as worthwhile. And I haven't since we actually reached the Human Sphere, I just didn't think we'd get out of it. Maybe becoming a High Cursebearer and forever removing one of the Accursed's Curses is worth, it definitely would be if we knew it would work. But that isn't about Vengeance anymore, the option name is misleading. It's only potentially worthwhile because we might be able to actually make a non-infinitesimal aid to the Biggest Good in the setting, and as cool as that is it really isn't what was originally signed up for.
The fact our revenge is out of reach without going far enough that such a thing is possible is... Well it was fairly clear somewhere before we beat Dien, but it's still stupid. The fights have been fun, and I never abandoned the Quest even after it was obvious it wasn't going to end this way, but when I came in the epilogue setup I was expecting was more on the order of "B Rank: you killed the Hidden Ones; A Rank: you actually got Hunger to the point he could have a fairly comfortable life for milenia with his family afterwards, occasionally interrupted by major Apocryphal procs that will eventually roll a few 1/100s in a row and send him into a death spiral; S Rank: He'll actually reach the end of his Indenture and while something will inevitably finish him eventually, who knows how many more zeros he'll add to his age." Again, you can argue all you want about just how big a difference he can make and how insanely high a 1/1000 chance of getting there is, and it's absolutely worth considering, but don't try to claim we're abandoning the original point when what we thought we were doing was trading the near certainty of death and actual certainty of a hard life for good odds of legitimately getting revenge.
I do not and have never cared about reaching High Cursebearer status. I only came in by the Elixer Springs, but even at that point there was not yet any indication of how high powered the Forebear and Hidden Ones we're, at least that I could notice. My reading of the situation, even at that point, was that it would take a few centuries to reach the level of power we have actually raised Hunger to by this final battle, but that that would already be enough to handle finding and killing the beings who would actually bother to Isekai a person from Earth into a fairly low powered high fantasy setting. I also figured we had a 30-50% chance of setting him up to survive that long into the epilogue, with less than 1% of lasting 10,000 years and an infinitesimal (if still non-zero) chance of finishing the entire Indenture.
And I also believe (still) that the Hunger of quest start would have been happy with that. Killing the rulers of a non-infinite multiverse that is so generally shitty and who ruined every positive thing about his personal life, in return for downgrading a life where a nonillion years is expected to be a significant portion but not all of it to one where he'd probably die in less than a million despite all his effort? Not realizing how powerful the Hidden Ones actually are and just how much he could scale, the same way I didn't, I don't think he would have seen that as a bad trade. With that understanding of the scaling in my mind, I would absolutely have voted for Vengeance at quest start.
But the fact that the revenge he seems actually needs him to reach the level of a High Cursebearer? Even with how ridiculously high we've raised the chance of that compared to even what is considered reasonable for Progression Type Cursebearers, it's still not something I view as worthwhile. And I haven't since we actually reached the Human Sphere, I just didn't think we'd get out of it. Maybe becoming a High Cursebearer and forever removing one of the Accursed's Curses is worth, it definitely would be if we knew it would work. But that isn't about Vengeance anymore, the option name is misleading. It's only potentially worthwhile because we might be able to actually make a non-infinitesimal aid to the Biggest Good in the setting, and as cool as that is it really isn't what was originally signed up for.
The fact our revenge is out of reach without going far enough that such a thing is possible is... Well it was fairly clear somewhere before we beat Dien, but it's still stupid. The fights have been fun, and I never abandoned the Quest even after it was obvious it wasn't going to end this way, but when I came in the epilogue setup I was expecting was more on the order of "B Rank: you killed the Hidden Ones; A Rank: you actually got Hunger to the point he could have a fairly comfortable life for milenia with his family afterwards, occasionally interrupted by major Apocryphal procs that will eventually roll a few 1/100s in a row and send him into a death spiral; S Rank: He'll actually reach the end of his Indenture and while something will inevitably finish him eventually, who knows how many more zeros he'll add to his age." Again, you can argue all you want about just how big a difference he can make and how insanely high a 1/1000 chance of getting there is, and it's absolutely worth considering, but don't try to claim we're abandoning the original point when what we thought we were doing was trading the near certainty of death and actual certainty of a hard life for good odds of legitimately getting revenge.
Last edited:
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
It's probably worth noting that Freedom is the option that actually serves the Accursed' comprehensive goals better than Vengeance, judging by how it has more +Accursed Favor than Vengeance. And we all know how the Accursed is flexible enough that any extra power or progress or mitigation in any one area can be converted to power or progress or mitigation in any other area.
It's also worth noting that in Finality, Inheritance was the singular option that did not grant mitigation. Vengeance comes with that for free. That ought to say so in of itself.
In addition to how Vengeance is pretty much doing the Procession of Worlds again..
Can Hunger, on Vengeance and in effect undergoing his own Procession, actually fight the Hidden Ones? The Forebear of Dynasty was not defeated by The Hidden Ones, but rather The Accursed. That distinction is important and I argue critical.
It's also worth noting that in Finality, Inheritance was the singular option that did not grant mitigation. Vengeance comes with that for free. That ought to say so in of itself.
In addition to how Vengeance is pretty much doing the Procession of Worlds again..
Another critical quote is this:
Can Hunger, on Vengeance and in effect undergoing his own Procession, actually fight the Hidden Ones? The Forebear of Dynasty was not defeated by The Hidden Ones, but rather The Accursed. That distinction is important and I argue critical.
Last edited:
WHISPER
IS VERY TRANQUIL!
Has anybody thought about that the Accursed favor going up might not have that much to do with what he gets out of it in the end and instead what he wishes for Hunger to do because of compassion amoung other things?
Yes yes I know "are you saying you know better than the Accursed?" But I still think the Accursed aim might be more on Hunger living a happy life instead of fighting forever to might free him from a whole curse at the end but that's just my thoughts.
Also this is basically a dead end, a part of freedom side argues that freedom's ending will be enough curse mitigation while people from Vengeance side say back that it just won't be enough to matter because of the big gap between Hunger and the Accursed and that to actually get something meaningful from it we need to take the risk or not and let Hunger have a peaceful life instead.
Yes yes I know "are you saying you know better than the Accursed?" But I still think the Accursed aim might be more on Hunger living a happy life instead of fighting forever to might free him from a whole curse at the end but that's just my thoughts.
Also this is basically a dead end, a part of freedom side argues that freedom's ending will be enough curse mitigation while people from Vengeance side say back that it just won't be enough to matter because of the big gap between Hunger and the Accursed and that to actually get something meaningful from it we need to take the risk or not and let Hunger have a peaceful life instead.
Last edited:
- Location
- Italy
I mean, it seems obvious to me. the reason the Accursed likes Freedom more is because it's basically what he wants for the whole multiverse, except it only applies to Hunger.
Basically he's showing compassion and applying his ideals in a specific case, instead of asking Hunger to make sacrifices to allow everyone to eventually do the same.
Also also... well, as said before, doom of the Martyr and plenty of curses might make it so that the Accursed CAN'T be selfish in this case.
but seriously, the pro and cons of the two choices are obvious.
BOTH options will have LONG lives, because Hunger is just that awesome.
BOTH options will have Hunger do a lot of good, though Freedom is on a lower scale while Vengeance will also have to cause a significant quantity of pain on the road to FAR more good than Freedom could accomplish.
Freedom will have Hunger live a happy life until his inevitable death an unknown but immense amount of years in the future
Vengeance will have Hunger live a life of strife and pain, though probably with a few moments of happiness in it (take this quest as an example, Hunger DID have a few moments of levity in it. they're just overshadowed by the strife).
Eventually, both will die. except Vengeance has a 0.1% to 1% of eventually becoming a HC and probably NOT dying at that point, because very few beings CAN actually kill a HC for good.
so, again. life of pain in service of a higher ideal, or life of happiness while doing what good he can (which is a lot) until the day a bigger fish appears. They're both valid options