Speak for yourself. If I'd been around at the beginning, I'd have voted Freedom then, too.
Don't lump everyone into one vote. Freedom wasn't in the dumpster, there was actual debate and such back then too.
Yeah, but not only it didn't win, the odds thing wasn't even an argument back then. That's what I'm staying; long odds weren't a argument back then, why should it matter now?
I, for one, would absolutely have switched to Forsaken Mask if it had been sold as 'a less-than-one-percent-chance of ultimate success even if you survive the whole quest'.
And had been here fast enough to vote for that, admittedly. I came in a couple updates later. But while catching up I was rooting for either Forsaken Mask or Vengeance, and my interest in the latter would have been minimal if the actual success chance hadn't looked higher than 70% or so.
Some things need to be done, to be tried, regardless of the success chance. To give up on this struggle is to accept powerlessness, to accept things will only get so better, that some beings are above retribution. And I don't want that at all.

*Some say the best revenge is living well. They are lying to themselves. One can strive to live well regardless, but there is no true substitute for revenge. No substitute for doing unto them what they did unto you, for passing sentence upon their richly deserving selves. King or noble, brazen masters or hidden ones... it matters not. When the hour arrives at last, there will be no justice here. Only vengeance.
You know, if Hunger just takes Indenture over and over in the Freedom choice, he can fight the machinations of the Hidden Ones incidentally by screwing up the settings they've messed with and help the Accursed with True Mitigation by eating Indenture shards, which is enough to drive him to greater heights without Apocryphal's guaranteed death sentence, a decent compromise between hanging up his sword and Apocryphal, I think. Not to mention gaining favors from The Accursed to be spent on various Lesser Remittances. Also, R's said that Freedom is basically risk-free, comparatively speaking, since non-Crowning Curses just aren't shit compared to Apocryphal and her buddies, so between Cursebearer protections and Gisena's bullshit, plus whatever Catherine would be able to pull out with full access to the maiden's power. Not to mention the nonsense their future kids will be capable of. The possibility of Deferred Payment Quest with one of his kids being a thing appeals to me on a deep level. Most of the other stuff I'd have pointed out has been said already.
Saying that Freedom will also basically have the benefits of Vengeance is pretty rich. We won't matter against the Hidden Ones if we don't become a High Cursebearer, just flat out. The whole point of Freedom is to accept that. We won't stop them, we won't make them pay in any way, we will just pick up our ball and go home, satisfied with what power we have.

The literally transfinite number of other Cursebearers. We are not in this alone, okay?
There's actually a finite number of Progression-types if I remember right. But still, there was only one Forebear of Dynasties. No one else can do what we can. Should we simply pass this burden onto others, even if we have a chance to repay creation entire? Someone has to bear this burden, and we are among the best that can do so.
 
A Simple Transaction I reaction (1921 words)
- A Simple Transaction I -
Foremost.

Despite its hubris, it was an appellation well-deserved.
Is it though? For all of the Foremost power they exist in a verse which contain the Accursed and his High Cursebearer. Even a "mere" Mid Cursebearer is so far above the Foremost as to make their title look like a complete farce.
Hunger, for all the inconceivable progression of months past, still found his power wanting in the face of his enemy's Supreme Grace. His perceptions shorn, cut away by his own hand to avoid being beguiled by her visage; even the screaming fall of his sword-stroke - easily sufficient to rend the lower and higher multiverse entire - not quite a match for her agility. Only the supreme martiality worn deep into his blade, like a groove etched on bone, allowed him to maintain some illusion of parity before the blinding radiance of her talent.
And Hunger, despite all of his ridiculously fast growth, find himself completely outclassed. The Apocryphal truly is a scary thing.
She was an adroit foe, Catherine's doppelgänger, this harkening rebel who had stolen her face and presumed to lessen him by it: perhaps the mightiest his present incarnation had ever faced, and the most stubborn. It chafed him to see Catherine's strength turned against him, to witness reflected in the Maiden's every action his wife's dying litany.

Win. That's all that matters.
Pherhaps the mightiest? Why is there even a perhaps there? But certainly having to fight your own reincarnated wife must be a rather traumatising experience...
Her unremitting blitz continued, foot descending from a high-kick to slice downward upon his shoulder blade; abandoning subtlety he rushed forward in a tackle, pre-empting the strike's momentum to intercept it with greater mass. The eviscerating light of his Blood Halo sliced her defenses to tatters; shorn of her veil the Maiden merely blazed infinitely brighter, destroying brilliance that repulsed his influence comprehensively. One-handed he reflected that light with the semi-matte flat of his blade, bleak brutalist steel pushing through the rays of dawn. The glare could not wound him; he had already cut out his eyes.
It's kind of strange and awesome to have a text talking about something blazing infinitely brighter and having this be not a metaphor, but the objective truth. Rihaku's combat description remain exceptional, but that goes without saying.
At blade's approach the Maiden finally drew forth a hammer of gilt iron, matching steel to steel. And though it shattered irreparably upon contact, its dying burst released a pulse of hyper-focused Nullity, rendering his blade and fingers both nerveless and unmoving - temporarily made wholly mundane. The firing pattern of ordinary musculature, no matter how optimized, was a subjective eternity at their speeds.
Ouch. Given that turning things mundane at this level is pretty much the same as destroying them, things are not looking good for Hunger...
Nonetheless he pressed onwards, Verschlengorge upon his shoulders roaring as its Devouring Shroud, unleashed at last, drained away her radiance, a maw spooling light more inescapably than any singularity. Seizing the crucial moment Hunger mustered himself, scraping hollow what felt like the last of his Praxis reserves. His right hand disabled, with explosive quickness he struck with his left: a fulsome uppercut to the solar plexus, conceptual core of her inner light and a primary chakra for findross emission. Bone and organ both broke before that hideous strength; rupturing destruction that pulsed outwards to fracture her skeleton into spearlike shards. She sailed away, an unfurling flower, beautiful even when falling.

At last, a telling blow.
So chakras are apparently a relevant concept for findross emission, with the solar plexus being a primary one for that purpose. I wonder if it uses the 7 chakra system or another? And if the solar plexus is a primary chakra for findross emission, which one are the other primary chakra for that purpose?

In any case, Hunger has managed to finally land a telling blow, but given that he has now used up all of his Praxis reserves that probably isn't good enough at this point...
Unable to fully direct his strength, the crack of that impact splintered the physical realm around them: arrow of entropy jaunted and slid sideways as locality and electrodynamics came asunder. A triviality - the horrific consequences thereof would unfold too slowly to matter.
Casually destroying the very laws of physics and it simply not mattering because the consequences will unfold too slowly... I really like well-written fights at such absurd level and there just are so few of them, I really appreciate Rihaku adding one more to that very short list.
The Maiden continued to fly, faultless teeth clenched in pain as her skeleton slowly realigned, ribcage and sternum both flattened by that abrupt pulverization. Struts and casts of findross appearing to delicately brace her broken frame, she coughed once: a soft dainty sound, flecks of blood like rubies in the void.
Maybe I should not be questioning how the Maiden is making sound in space given the level of power we are at here but... Using your phenomenal cosmic powers so you can make a dainty sound when you cough blood in space? Really?
And yet, she did not seem displeased.

Gracefully Catherine drifted with the impact, allowing the brutality of his strike to carry her far, far away; now performing complicated workings of findross as she flew. Shimmering jewels of reified grace began to appear upon her fingers, each a celestial teardrop so exquisite that even the evening sky seemed as peeling wallpaper in comparison.

She closed her fist and the jewel-lights converged, fusing into a nexus of some unfathomable nature. Fighting exhaustion Hunger prepared to strike again, unwilling to permit the assembly of whatever she'd prepared. But he found his footwork stifled by the nexus' pearlescence, skating askew against a too-smooth sheen now swiftly being lidded over all reality.

Asserting his dominion of space he corrected his position, but by then the Maiden had already maneuvered farther and to his flank, seemingly uninterested in pressing the attack as she continued to feed jewels into her miniature… coalescence.

Ah.
I'm not exactly certain what is going on here... As coalescence are the source of a sorceress power, I would guess she is powering up in some fashion but, if that's the case, why did she wait until now to do it?
If matters continued as they had, then this mirror-caricature of Catherine would indeed prevail, though it might cost her grievously. And yet what did that matter before the Apocryphal Curse, whose well of foes was unfettered and limitless?
Yeah... In the end, this is but one among the infinitely many enemies sent by the Apocryphal Curse Hunger will have to face if he chose Vengeance. It's a testament to the might of the Forebear that he even has a 0.1% - 1% chance of survival with that option...
Dien Bravo had been a shattered mote, less the true Surgeon than a single flake of its dermis; young as she was, the Maiden had come against him in full. Likely it was hubris to think he could overwhelm the Foremost unaided, much as he wished her cut down by his own hand. Now Hunger's strength flagged from grotesque exertion in the Praxis, the weight of his wounds only compounding that fatigue. Mighty as the sword was, still there were things mightier.

Such as, he sighed mentally… the peerless talent of a true genius. One who might genuinely be considered the foremost exemplar of her species. Though he had wished to avoid his companions abrading their selfhood by even one iota, it appeared their uttermost would be required now.
And Gisena now bails us out once again... Choosing her as a remittance certainly seems to have ended up being an excellent choice in the end. Though we had to invest a phenomenal quantity of Arete and wishes into keeping her relevant, so it's not really obvious if that was really the optimal choice...

Also, good on Hunger for still caring about the selfhood of his companions, I have a feeling the Forebear would not have been so caring...
Deep in the Voyaging Realm his Princess-Regent detected that intention, triggering one final contingency. Adorie, Augustine, Arcanist and annoying renaissance woman all would unite, separate fingers become a fist of concerted prowess conjoining Mirellyian blood, the Lord Protector's skill, the Maker-Shard's nature, and Allrian virtuosity. All but the final step of that grand ritual had already been performed, its potential lying abeyant to erupt at his command. Completion now was but a matter of a single gesture, less than a whisper of motion which, ensconced in the heart of his territory, the Maiden had little ability to perceive.

Infinite as she was, by her nature the Maiden embodied youth; and the most treacherous of her Sorceresses had one card left to play.
annoying renaissance woman... There was no need to do Gisena dirty like that! And just for a bit of wordplay to boot! Also it makes sense that someone possessing the title of Maiden would embody youth, but it's rather ironic given that she is literally infinitely old given the unlimited span of her training.
Unheralded, Gisena-the-Maker took the field slipping silently beside Hunger, absorbing and refining the Maiden's Nullity which had incapacitated his arm and Blade. She allowed her new form to be lacerated by his murderous light, offering Mirellyian blood to its eponymous Halo. Already he could feel his Praxis well restored, and soon filled to overflowing. Though badly wounded still, his stamina now would not flag even if the battle drew long. The vigor of his fearsome opening strikes could be repeated with a fury.

He cut.
Imagine being the Maiden and seeing Gisena come out of nowhere, restore Hunger's arm and sword which were supposed to have been completely taken out of the fight and not only completely refilling his Praxis well but making sure it won't run dry even if the battle goes long... She must be so salty...
Like a ribbon before shears the universe parted, Maiden and burgeoning coalescence within easy reach once more. The iridescent sheen of her singularity stymied him - raw strength skittering without purchase against impossible sleekness - but the unbridled offensive of a second full sword-stroke tore headlong through.
I'm still not really clear on the exact mechanism and effect behind this calescence. It seems to have some kind of extremely powerful defensive effect but I couldn't tell you why.
The Maiden fled, barriers of ineffable reality cracking like a cosmic eggshell before that obliterating strength, light laced crimson exposing the naked truth: that all things could but yield before the Forebear of Dynasties, whose might was force wedded to oppression inextricably.
"force wedded to oppression" isn't exactly what I would consider ideal, but certainly none can deny that the Forebear was mighty indeed...
Thereby the contest of dominion began also to shift, Foremost runes in a constellation about Gisena shaping ambient findross into a form more pleasing to them. In time that battle also would tip in their favor. Hunger no longer had to overcome, merely endure, the final frenzied attentions of the Maiden's setting sun.
The fact that Gisena is now superior to the Maiden in the domain of findross manipulation is kind of ridiculous, but I guess that's what it means to be a true Genius...
For a moment his foe at last appeared disoriented, lashing out with an array of tactics seemingly desperate and ill-considered. From Gisena she sought to strip the Sorcery of her core arsenal, as was her right as progenitor; but the refutation of Nullity was absolute - for Catherine was Maiden not mother, and what else was there to say? Then at the Human Sphere came the hurled nucleus of her nascent coalescence, unstable complexion rippling with prismatic flux; but a resurgent Aobaru gamely intercepted once more, answering light with heat in explosive frisson that projected outwards and sideways to leave the realm unscathed.
The fact that Nullity is being to just say no to the Maiden attempt to rescind Gisena powers because she has the wrong title is kind of hilarious. And now the Maiden is finally feeling desperate, but you know what they say about cornered ennemies...
Hunger's onslaught the Maiden parried with a spear of silent purity, its aura a physical ache like the unicorn gleam of sunrise upon silver. Shedding Sky and flesh he plunged through its presence; teeth of that maelstrom stripping muscle from bone, bathing him in his own lifeblood like some self-churning abattoir.
Nonetheless a single stroke of his Blade cleaved through her weapon and into its mistress behind.

Against Tyranny given form, innocence was as worthless a shelter as dignity.
I really like the way that, despite Hunger having this utterly edgy aesthetic and being the very incarnation of Tyranny and the Maiden having this aesthetic of pure beauty and purity and being the very incarnation of innocence and Maidenhood, there is still an argument for Hunger being the good guy in that conflict. Sometime you should not judge a book by its cover... though sometime you should.
The Forebear of Dynasties.

In faraway eons before her birth he had bestrode the greater cosmos as tyrant unflinching; at his fall infinite multitudes had rejoiced, free at last of his iron stranglehold. At its best his reign was a gilded cage; at its worst, ruin everlasting.

Hark his approach which is unrelenting conquest. All who resist are plunged into war. The implement of his strife is unmerciful Hunger. And upon his advent, he brings only death.

Few lived now who remembered the Forebear at his height, the terror-transcending helplessness of his merest advance. If she failed here, then that was the fate of this and every realm in all the far-flung ontologies within his illimitable span. He was an instrument with only one purpose.
Obviously the Maiden is going to have a somewhat biased point of view on things but the fact that infinite multitudes rejoiced at the news of the Forebear fall is rather indicative that maybe becoming him again might not be the best of ideas... Though from some things Rihaku has said maybe the Forebear reborn won't be as terrible as the original version, though perhaps the Winter Dynasty is simply a representation of the rule of the Forebear at its very best.
It was almost admirable, his absolute purity of will. She was not without sympathy to his nature; one could hardly emerge from the Procession of Worlds as anything less, and none but he had ever broken free. Yet he had bought his liberty by becoming an oppressor just as inescapable.

Nothing of his past could change their diametrical opposition.

Would that she were only more capable of prosecuting it.
Yeah... The Forebear was definitely relatively well adjusted for someone that has survived the Procession, it is difficult to imagine a better result given the circumstance that lead to his ascension.
The Maiden's silver spear, product of uncountable ages, as far beyond the Archsmith's hammer as the dawn sun was to candlelight - still had broken before Lord Hunger's reckless power, the all-severing Cut his Blood Halo embodied. That she had flensed the flesh from his tattered frame in recompense was small consolation.

To a lesser being such would be a thousandfold mortal wounds; shrapnel like a spray of stars glinting and slicing through his bloody remains - but the will that animated Lord Hunger was far beyond such petty destructions. He would persist, even lessened, and she would perish.
The balance of the fight has now completely inverted and Hunger victory is now inevitable if things continue as they are going.
The Maiden was prodigious, but she was no Genius. Despite her luxury of infinite time, Gisena Allria had already in some aspects surpassed her.

Even within the Foremost, there could be a first among equals.
Man, Gisena is something else. The fact that she was originally supposed to die to Jotarun is an utter travesty...
But even a genius was not without her own weaknesses. For she to whom all things came easily, it was only natural to witness a deficit in the very arena of her lord's strength: the mettle which obtained only from true adversity. The determination to prevail that both Maiden and Tyrant embodied wholly - that, Gisena lacked. And so it was difficult, for one less invested, to predict the actions of those so unstoppably driven.
So Gisena lacks determination according to the Maiden... I suppose that when you compare someone's determination to Hunger, an incarnation of the Forebear himself, or the Maiden, who trained for a literal eternity in the hope of winning this battle, very few would measure up...
Though her hopes were at a close, Catherine's will did not falter. Her flesh could fail, her spear could fail, her Grace could fail, the day could fail, yet it was not in her to fail.

Perhaps all the Foremost had shattered themselves in pursuit of such unyielding principle. How could they do otherwise, in the face of a world that scorned their ideals? And so the Maiden followed the path of her forebears.
"When the ideal and the world exist in disharmony it is the world that is wrong." is, for all that it is admirable, indeed a dangerous idea to live by... I wonder what exactly ended up destroying the Foremost, was it internal conflict caused by incompatible ideals or is was it some kind of external threat? And what were their connection to Cursebearers? We still know so little about them...
Even as Hunger closed in for the mortal stroke, even as the Forebear's Blade split her in twain, she heaved the angular blades of her forearm-bones forward into a blow that spent everything of her self. Pressed by the momentum of his own unstoppable charge, he had no time to evade - could scarcely even perceive - her final counter-thrust, aimed to pierce through the very core of his being.

This all she shattered on victory's altar - victory though none to see it; victory no matter the cost; for all that mattered was Tyrant felled, even ere the heavens fall - and struck true.
And here we have the Maiden using her Shattering Strike, paying the ultimate price so as to assure her victory no matter the cost. Or at least, that's what she think...
His heart, savaged by earlier injuries, was thereby impaled; cored from his body like a pitted peach, and with her strike came obliteration so utter that there was no hope whatsoever for recovery. Liberty and tyranny matched essence to essence in mutual annihilation, eradicating the very nature of Lord Hunger, bleak reflection of his matrimony long ago. Till death do us part.
Drawing a comparison between killing Hunger through a suicidal attack and his marriage because of the "Till death do us part" aspect is indeed rather bleak, to say the least! And, for some reason, I'm not entirely convinced by that mention of there being no hope of recovery whatsoever...
The halo of crimson, implement of his tyranny, would see blood spilled, but never replenished. Its forbiddance against healing was absolute. Even as Hunger fell it blazed unstoppably, hiltless blade by which he had brought her to the very edge of ruin, and which now would bring selfsame unto him. With such Blood was the tree of liberty watered. By his own tools, Lord Hunger was undone.
Yes, the drawback of the Blood Halo is rather crippling isn't it? -1 ISH to all healing effects is no joke. Thankfully we do have a solution to that problem...
Of course that halo-light still sought futilely for purchase against the remnant husk of her body - there was nothing it would not cut - but not enough remained of her to be meaningfully severed. Of the Maiden now, precious little remained; scattered shards in the beautiful shape of a person, light at so perilous an ebb that the mere dark of space might see it extinguished for good.
Yeah, at that level of power being reduced to the point where the mere void of space represent an actual threat, you truly have to be on your last leg...
She'd won. Gisena Allria would see this ontology well in stead, benevolence without oppression easily within her means. It was no ideal victory, but she'd never expected as such against his like.

The Maiden smiled as her eyes slid closed, preparing at long last, to rest…

And yet. Why was the Genius smirking still? That smug insufferable smile was not the triumphant cackling of one who had successfully maneuvered foe and tyrant both into mutual annihilation and could now preside unimpeded, grievously wounded or not, over the remains. It was almost gentle, full of affection for the man Catherine had irrevocably slain.
I'm honestly not sure how the Maiden didn't see what's about to happen coming. Doesn't the Maiden have a superhuman intellect? You shouldn't even need to be superhumanly intelligent to figure out this is a possibility once you know Gisena's capacities...
Even as she bled the Genius raised a palm, and from her outstretched hand came forth a torrent, a sea of Nullity dammed, angled to channel its force towards the circle of blinding crimson at Hunger's back. Beset by Foremost ablation the Halo of Blood fluttered, then strained, and finally tore free; like a pennant untethered by hurricane winds, light become nothingness in Nullity's smothering grasp...

Leaving behind only the Ring of Blood.

The Ring Hunger.

From Lord Hunger's corpse came forth his shade: Forebear's Blade in hand, a crimson flare upon ghostlight fingers; and the thunder of his stride was the stroke of doom.
I like how such an old advancement ended up being relevant in the final battle, it's quite the throwback. And I must admit I did not see that tactic coming! Though if you had asked me I don't know if I would have predicted that Gisena's Nullity was strong enough to cancel the Blood Halo. Gisena has become quite the frightening existence...
Her eye very nearly twitched. Bait her into the Shattering Blow, then annul his own Halo that he might return - lessened, but not nearly so far as she. Already in her mind she could hear his tiresome refrain, age and treachery and all that...

So be it.

She, too, had one final card to play. One that even the Genius would patently dislike. What age and treachery could never offer, the Maiden had already secreted away.
The Maiden thinks Hunger's speeches about age and treachery are tiresome... She truly has no taste. And here come her very last card. With the way the vote is currently going, it's unlikely to work but one can hope...
Tyranny could not be negotiated with, save that you possessed its true desire.

"Your wife."

Hunger raised a single eyebrow, but did not break stride.

"Through my mantle she could be returned to life. In truth and utterly. Without provoking the intervention of those who forged the Forebear of Dynasties. Your child as well."
How does she even know it won't provoke an intervention of the Hidden Ones? What connection does she have to them that allows her to make that prediction?
The nature of innocence was this: when she spoke a lie, her interlocutors knew it for a lie; and so too when she spoke the truth.
A very useful power, that! Sure it might sucks to not be able to lie but the upside of always being trusted when you say the truth seems more than worth it!
He scoffed. "You would inhabit her as you do this current vessel?"

"No." She shook her head. "To return her would require more than all that remains of me. But your Crowning Curse has already promised its aid. Catherine would thereafter be Foremost, and myself a mere part of her. It would not be possible were her nature not already aligned with mine. You already know, better than any, how small a change that would be."
I definitely missed that the first time I read this passage but apparently the Apocryphal communicated directly with the Maiden and is actively helping with Hunger's wife resurrection if we are sensible enough to chose Freedom... The Apocryphal really seem to think that Freedom would be an interesting ending doesn't it? I can't say I disagree. Both ending would be very interesting and thematic here, it's simply that one of the options is far wiser than the other...
Grimly he smiled then, blade aloft. "What do you want?"

If one wife, one child, could matter so much to him, he who had raised Dynasties beyond number and seen them fall to ash… then he was not yet lost to the past, as he had once been lost to the long march of his Procession.

He was, as yet, more than an echo of the Forebear.
Once again, the Maiden is rather biased, but if Hunger actually caring about his wife and child is enough to conclusively show to her that he's still more than just an echo of the Forebear this doesn't really augur anything good for the path were he choses to become the Forebear reborn in truth.

And I know that Vengeance gives a bunch of relationship +s with Gisena and that's the reason at least one person is voting for it, but I'm left thinking that that path cannot possibly lead to anything resembling an healthy relationship. If Hunger is willing to discard his wife and child on autel of his Vengeance, if he becomes the Forebear reborn in truth... I don't see him being able to truly care for any individual person ever again and he would inevitably discard Gisena just as readily as he did his wife and child if that proved necessary to fulfill his Vengeance.
"The price of my hand?" She replied, returning his smile with her own. "A simple transaction. Take up a portion of my values, and proliferate them by your reign. Worry not. What I intend to request, even you will find reasonable."

The blade did not lower, but Hunger spoke. "...And here I had thought our differences irreconcilable."

Her smile grew rueful. "Marriage is about compromise, after all."
And we get offered another simple transaction, with the same options as we had at the beginning of the quest. Only this time with more information.
This is the final vote of A Simple Transaction I. After 169 threadmarks, the end is finally nigh! A deep and heartfelt thanks to all of my readers - without you, there would be no Lord Hunger, no Gisena or Letrizia, no Aeira or Adorie, and no story of theirs to conclude.
And thank you Rihaku for having written it. I don't think there is any other piece of writing quite like what you managed to write here and, even if arguing with the rest of the player base was often a exercice in frustration, I am immensely grateful for this quest existence.
Aobaru would of course always have existed.
Of course your SI would have still existed!
[ ] Vengeance - Carry on, O Forebear of Dynasties. You have debts yet to pay. A debt of gratitude to your patron, who rescued you from your lowest point; and a debt of the sword to the Hidden Ones, who brought you there. Cut through, even she who you cannot bear to cut.
I really feel like a better repayment towards the Accursed would be to actually listen to his advice and go for the action he prefers...
*Pass the final test. Become the Forebear of Dynasties in truth. You are no mere lord; your vice no mere hunger: you are he who was King once, and is now King again.
*+++++Gisena, +++Haeliel, ++Accursed Favor. Happiness is lighter than a feather; duty is heavier than eons.
*The Forebear, naturally, gains the power of every non-contradictory advancement of the Forebear's Blade hence offered, including the Inheritance Heroic Advancement. He retains Blood Halo, after working to restore it; for Hunger is the Forebear no less than the reverse. As his reign and onslaught commence, Devouring War will mitigate a progressively greater portion of the Decimator's Affliction. If the Forebear's standard shall be a pennant of blood, then the future will know only war.
*There's a chance, not even that remote, that the Forebear returned will one day be capable of lifting the Doom of Tyranny from the Accursed's shoulders, and realize his vengeance against the Hidden Ones. After all, it was no less than he who broke free of the Bleak Procession by strength alone. If successful, then by definition he would be a High Cursebearer - capable of performing an act relevant to the Accursed himself.
*Do your part to hasten the Victorious World!

You see now the self-same machinations behind the evil that set you first upon the Procession of Worlds and then your doomed mortal life. Resigned to tyranny you may be, but it need not be so for the Accursed; and if you should reach heights sufficient to extirpate the Forebear's curse from him then the victorious world will be all the closer.

As you chose in the beginning, so too now do you choose, with knowledge fully realized: not a life of joyful frivolity for the Forebear of Dynasties, for that is neither his gift nor his burden. Only the forward march, into sorrow, into greatness, into the terror and dusk; for none can bear it better than him, and he brings not peace but a sword.

Tremble, you ones in high places, who wreathed in shadows thought yourselves invincible. The Forebear of Dynasties is returned in full, and the fall of his blade is your ruin come at last.
The path of tragedy, of Hunger thinking he knows better than the Accursed, of self-sacrifice unasked for and unwanted, of tragedy. There is no happy ending to find here and only the faintest of hope of anything other than inevitable death.
[ ] Freedom - "Once you proscribed to pay me back for the powers I had imparted on you. Do me this favor, old foe: rest. Let me never again be forced to take up arms against you...

…It was a difficult enough fight the first time."
I like that everyone voting for Vengeance seems to either completely ignore or reject out of hand the possibility, brought here by the Accursed himself, that Vengeance winning might end up eventually resulting in a fight between the Accursed and the Forebear reborn. And by "like" I mean "hate".

...On a more positive note, the Forebear was quite the badass if the Accursed is that keen on avoiding a repeat of their last battle! Which is just one more reason to not let it come down to that of course...
*++++++++++True Catherine, +++++Hunger's Kid, ++++++++++Accursed Favor.
*Hunger will structure this and his future reign so as to limit the scope and severity of potential tyranny, installing safeguards against the grossest theoretical abuses of power.
*De-commissions Novakhron for some future hero to wield.
*The Apocryphal Curse will depart as Hunger relinquishes his command over the Lathe of Heaven. Hunger will remain a Combat-type Cursebearer with all his other Curses. For one such as he, of course, such a burden hardly counts as adversity. That's fine. Some endings are interesting enough to not be worth perturbing with future drama.
*Rest, Lord Hunger. Even the wildest of journeys will eventually seek a conclusion; rejoice that yours was a happy one.

Lay down your sword, tyrant of tyrants. The Forebear of Dynasties is past. You are not he, consigned to ruin in every word and every deed. It is not his sword by which you chose to be named, but the Ring. Perhaps you see now that the only king your blade aloft would murder was ever and only the wielder. Take what you have earned and find your sunset land, your quiet idyllic realm somewhere between dawn and evening: and for once in your life, be happy.

Who is to say that you will be disbarred from adventure forever? No, let it simply be that the adventures to come, come about by your choosing - by your will and hand, not some unending procession curated by those on high.

The era may arise when strife and wickedness again engulf the land, crying out for a hero; but it is not this era. The day may come when you must once more take up your blade; but it is not this day. The hour of destiny's summons may yet alight upon your shoulders, but it is not this hour.

Rest, O hero.

At long, long last, your dalliance of a season has come to an end.
The happy ending that the Forebear so richly deserve. Who deserves to rest more than he does? Listen to the voice of wisdom. Listen to the Accursed.
 
Well, we already know the Accursed's opinion on Freedom/Vengeance since the beginning of the quest:

The eyes of the Accursed open. The ghost of a smile plays across his face, almost too quickly to catch. "Perhaps the wiser choice. Be careful which burdens you undertake; they will accompany you for eons to come. Go, enjoy your freedom. You've earned it."

"...If that is what you wish."

"If you survive, no power will be beyond you. In time, there will be no blade you cannot sunder, no force you cannot rout, no foe you cannot ruin, no throne you cannot claim. Take care that you do not become that which you despise."

They are simply repeated here again, now with greater finality.
 
There is no hard limit on the system, only a soft one of plausibility. A normal man rose to become the Forebear in the first place!
Procession is quasi Progression in so far that you always get greater challenges to overcome to grow stronger, so you can't get stuck in some random ontology that doesn't allow real advancement. Similar to how we used Apo to turbocharge Hunger's advancement here, although Progression certainty helped.
 
I definitely missed that the first time I read this passage but apparently the Apocryphal communicated directly with the Maiden and is actively helping with Hunger's wife resurrection if we are sensible enough to chose Freedom... The Apocryphal really seem to think that Freedom would be an interesting ending doesn't it? I can't say I disagree. Both ending would be very interesting and thematic here, it's simply that one of the options is far wiser than the other...
The Apocryphal Curse has been dubbed 'The Bane of Heroes.' I cannot help but feel that the Apocryphal's assistance in restoring Hunger's Wife & Child is a red flag; Apo waged war on Hunger for roughly a year and was rebuffed over and over again. The Pirate: Slain. The Gamer: Slain. The Rotbeast: Slain. The Lord Protector: Slain. The Armament: Slain. The Shard: Slain. The Mordred: Subverted. The Maiden: Shattered. The previous attempt on Hunger (Aobaru's Treachery) resulted in a local Apocryphal mitigation of 1% for all nearby ontologies for quite a while. It also provided him with a Lieutenant that was able to deflect two high-tier attacks on the Human Sphere.

Why would the Apocryphal Curse stick around trading blows with Hunger the Progression Type Cursebearer when it only seems to be losing ground? It can derail him from the path of heroism by providing him with a convenient distraction! Abandoning Vengeance wards Apo-chan's masters against catching their due, and it preempts any and all further mitigation by Hunger himself. Voting for Freedom grants Apo an absolute win, because it is the bane of Hunger the Hero.
 
The previous attempt on Hunger (Aobaru's Treachery) resulted in a local Apocryphal mitigation of 1% for all nearby ontologies for quite a while. It also provided him with a Lieutenant that was able to deflect two high-tier attacks on the Human Sphere.
False, I believe. That was the counterfactual where we picked Seram instead of the Shards. A Chosen Purpose made him handle - and grow from - a small fraction of our Apocryphal procs, though.
Abandoning Vengeance wards Apo-chan's masters against catching their due, and it preempts any and all further mitigation by Hunger himself. Voting for Freedom grants Apo an absolute win, because it is the bane of Hunger the Hero.
Why do you think the Hidden Masters are the ones who made Apocryphal? I'm pretty sure Cycle Of Revenge is one of them, going by the Hero's story.

Incidentally, I came back because I had a thought: Does convincing Apocryphal to leave count as full mitigation of our Apocryphal shard? Because that is, in fact, a pretty significant factor in terms of our war contribution!
 
I can't imagine why it would, it's leaving not being defeated.
Cannot imagine? We're obviously both biased, but 'sacrificing a full share of Progression' being the kind of thing that would let you fully mitigate a curse, and 'our shard of Apocryphal leaves, not destroyed, but not to bedevil the Accursed in particular, either' seems like a reasonably plausible interpretation. She also handles those people who got her attention via Binding Casino et al, after all.
 
Cannot imagine? We're obviously both biased, but 'sacrificing a full share of Progression' being the kind of thing that would let you fully mitigate a curse, and 'our shard of Apocryphal leaves, not destroyed, but not to bedevil the Accursed in particular, either' seems like a reasonably plausible interpretation. She also handles those people who got her attention via Binding Casino et al, after all.
I think that not just leaving Hunger forever but also the Accursed himself forever just because Hunger gave up infinite escalation power sounds like a sketch no offense.
 
Last edited:
Man, the human mind is crazy; when we had (much much much much) less of a vigintillionth of a percent of becoming a High Cursebearer people didn't care even a single bit about our odds and voted to Cut Through anyway, but a 1% chance has people saying its fundamentally hopeless. I guess the former number just doesn't sound real.
Every time people say this it gets more fucking insulting and offensive.

People can have voted for Vengeance in the past (say, because it's in-character for someone who's irreversibly lost everything to want it), and vote for Freedom in the present (say, because it's in-character for someone who's reversed their irreversible losses to at least stop and fucking think about what they actually want from life instead of being a fire-and-forget missile flailing onward eternally into the darkness and smashing through entire universes along the way).

It's not just everyone being a drooling gibbering brainless thing incapable of logically processing facts about probability.

This is incredibly condescending and wrong, and there's like five people repeating it.
 
There's actually a finite number of Progression-types if I remember right. But still, there was only one Forebear of Dynasties. No one else can do what we can. Should we simply pass this burden onto others, even if we have a chance to repay creation entire? Someone has to bear this burden, and we are among the best that can do so.
Repay for what? The Accursed has Hunger's loyalty for sparing him the axe and giving him a chance at a redemption.

All creation ever did was give Hunger wars to fight.
 
There is no hard limit on the system, only a soft one of plausibility. A normal man rose to become the Forebear in the first place!
on the other hand to do so he had to survive the procession. I don't think Indenture by itself is quite enough to reach such heights again... but then again, while the chance of becoming a High Cursebearer is FAR lower, it's probably not quite zero. Mostly because there's always a chance of Hunger picking up the mantle.

I wouldn't be surprised if, eventually, just like he once gave up the Lathe of Heaven, he could in theory retake that mantle... and, of course, the Apocryphal Curse.

But what would it take for him to do that? the death of his family again?
 
Every time people say this it gets more fucking insulting and offensive.

People can have voted for Vengeance in the past (say, because it's in-character for someone who's irreversibly lost everything to want it), and vote for Freedom in the present (say, because it's in-character for someone who's reversed their irreversible losses to at least stop and fucking think about what they actually want from life instead of being a fire-and-forget missile flailing onward eternally into the darkness and smashing through entire universes along the way).

It's not just everyone being a drooling gibbering brainless thing incapable of logically processing facts about probability.

This is incredibly condescending and wrong, and there's like five people repeating it.
No bro, some outright said that the chance of success affected their voting. They were totally fine with the character arc as long as it was good odds. Which is totally inconsistent with how the Vengeance option was portrayed for the entire quest.

I also disagree with this summation of Hunger's arc when he knowingly had the option to live well and get back what he missed most at the start and deliberately rejected it. And nothing in this adventure presents that his reasons for doing so were wrong. There was never a refutation of his principles.
Repay for what? The Accursed has Hunger's loyalty for sparing him the axe and giving him a chance at a redemption.

All creation ever did was give Hunger wars to fight.
I mean, you're the one who said this:
For me, what I see here are two questions. Firstly, Hunger is being asked if being the Forebear was a good thing. And frankly? No, I don't believe it was
But if you actually say that the Forebear was based I won't argue. Can't just say that Hunger isn't the Forebear because we've had a winning vote otherwise, and so he will act accordingly.
 
Last edited:
How do those two contradict again? I'm not seeing it.
You said that being the Forebear was a bad thing. Even if the Forebear bears no culpability for his existence, it is logical to want to repay this harm. But then you say that all creation ever did was put him in endless battles, which is true, but implies creation fully deserved the existence of the Forebear, and so he cannot be a bad thing. This is at least the implication of this statement:
Hunger's view of the Forebear is one of unflinching approval, but his opinion of the Procession of Worlds and all it entails are anything but. Even despite the power reincarnation offered, and the sheer legacy it enabled him, his concerns thereabout lie solely in preserving what shreds of self-respect he might along the way.
"All it entails"; is this not disapproval of the Forebear's actions? If you say that in the following statement that Forebear was a bad thing despite Hunger's complete approval, is this not part of that conclusion?

If you instead meant that being the Forebear was bad exclusively for Hunger and no one else, and so he should give up, that seems nonsensical to me. You yourself admit that being the Forebear is what gave him this opportunity after all, and in previous votes we already accepted our past in this regard.

The Procession indeed caused him unimaginable pain. But for him, it was merely a curse, while we do have an ultimate goal, and that's the fundamental difference. Being forged in the Procession, he could no longer escape the behaviors that let him transcend.

But we have an opportunity to do what he could not. To kill the Hidden Ones may be loftier than any goal that Forebear could conceive at the start of his journey, but it is nonetheless an end. And a more meaningful one than merely surviving in the wake of things forever beyond us.
 
Last edited:
Combat types do cap out the amount of mitigation they can give the Accursed, eventually. It depends on Hunger's ultimate power but he's definitely gonna be much weaker than Vengeance, who might be able to provide stage 5 or 6 mitigation.
1) From a perspective of providing value by defeating the Hidden One's settings - we don't have the freedom to actually chase them or actively seek them out thanks to Indenture, plus Hunger's priorities in Freedom will be enjoying his life with his family.

2) I don't really care too much about Lesser Remittances if Freedom either, since Hunger is living a retirement life with challenges he'll be able to deal with on his own. Why make the Accursed put in effort to help us for stuff we don't really need?

Another fairly large complaint for me is that Freedom is basically hard committing to saying goodbye to Gisena, and Adorie, and all the companions we've grown close to over the quest (because Hunger only has 2 companion slots, and must commit them to Catherine + his kid). Since we haven't seen much of either it's got 0 appeal personally.

We can also just do it for the Favor and abusing Indenture for scaled settings.

Procession is quasi Progression in so far that you always get greater challenges to overcome to grow stronger, so you can't get stuck in some random ontology that doesn't allow real advancement. Similar to how we used Apo to turbocharge Hunger's advancement here, although Progression certainty helped.

Indenture still scales worlds to you, and without Apocryphal(and with his family) Hunger will have stuff besides training taking up his time. He'll grow slower, but he won't, you know, stagnate.
 
Indenture still scales worlds to you, and without Apocryphal(and with his family) Hunger will have stuff besides training taking up his time. He'll grow slower, but he won't, you know, stagnate.
he'll grow up qualitatively slower, to the point he'll have a negligible chance of ever becoming HC.

He'll still grow stronger, sure, but... well, you can grow stronger forever without ever going up a single ISH rank. or even if he continued to climb the ISH rank, he might never go beyond finite numbers, and High Cursebearers are above the ISH scale (at least in terms of normal numbers)
 
You said that being the Forebear was a bad thing. Even if the Forebear bears no culpability for his existence, it is logical to want to repay this harm. But then you say that all creation ever did was put him in endless battles, which is true, but implies creation fully deserved the existence of the Forebear, and so he cannot be a bad thing. This is at least the implication of this statement:
What? Being the Forebear was shit because it was a nigh-endless travail of inestimable cruelty which only the near-total dissolution of the Forebear's underlying humanity eventually freed him from. That's what that period of time was.

There's no reason to repay creation for anything. It didn't cause the Forebear's Procession, nor Hunger's grim slog of years; it also offered no aid in his time of need and is due no specific consideration. The general consensus of creation is one of polite indulgence towards the affairs of heroes and conquerors alike. For one who has held both titles, the facile nature of such concern is argument for disregard, regardless of the multitudes involved.

(Freeing the oppressed is an exception in either case. Their concern is not facile there; it is not idle masses he wars for then, and indeed he toppled the Temple for the freedom of a single Ring.)

My point is, that Hunger's drives relate entirely to entities and attributes which relate to him in turn. That a course of action would be of supreme relevance to the wider setting is not a position that should be relevant to Hunger, at least I understand the character. Though definitely appealing from this side of the fourth wall, it's not an argument.
"All it entails"; is this not disapproval of the Forebear's actions? If you say that in the following statement that Forebear was a bad thing despite Hunger's complete approval, is this not part of that conclusion?
No, actually. It is disapproval of their necessity. Hunger approves of that he did what must be done; not that it must be. This is generally considered a sign of mental health.

In the absence of inescapable compulsion, he might only continue upon that undesirable, yet necessary path if that indeed was what he wanted all along. I don't believe that to be true, thus why I'm in disagreement and arguing against it. And as arguments to the contrary go, I've seen... four? Four raised:
1. Keeping the Progression
2. Spiting the Maiden
3. Vengeance against the Hidden Ones
4. Rescinding the Doom of the Tyrant

Progression is a means to an end. Hunger observes parlay even when undesirable. Rescinding the Doom of the Tyrant is not among his motives.
Only vengeance against the Hidden Ones is important to him. And it is, in fact, very much possible that vengeance is no longer worth pursuing, explicitly because to do so would require recreating the platonic agony of Procession via the Indenture under Apocryphal conditions. If he were driven by rage, it would make sense to mantle the source of his agony and wield it unrelentingly against his foes, even if it were no longer necessary.

But he is not. We chose the Blade. Vengeance is a messy business, to be concluded promptly. A responsibility, not a compulsion of its own. To knowingly accept a fate similar to the Procession would contradict this concept of vengeance, because it would preclude the same dignity that vengeance would restore. Vengeance is worth nothing without cause. For Hunger, that cause is now demonstrably self-defeating. The choice is no longer between fighting and running away, but between abeyance and recidivism.
 
What? Being the Forebear was shit because it was a nigh-endless travail of inestimable cruelty which only the near-total dissolution of the Forebear's underlying humanity eventually freed him from. That's what that period of time was.

There's no reason to repay creation for anything. It didn't cause the Forebear's Procession, nor Hunger's grim slog of years; it also offered no aid in his time of need and is due no specific consideration. The general consensus of creation is one of polite indulgence towards the affairs of heroes and conquerors alike. For one who has held both titles, the facile nature of such concern is argument for disregard, regardless of the multitudes involved.

(Freeing the oppressed is an exception in either case. Their concern is not facile there; it is not idle masses he wars for then, and indeed he toppled the Temple for the freedom of a single Ring.)

My point is, that Hunger's drives relate entirely to entities and attributes which relate to him in turn. That a course of action would be of supreme relevance to the wider setting is not a position that should be relevant to Hunger, at least I understand the character. Though definitely appealing from this side of the fourth wall, it's not an argument.

No, actually. It is disapproval of their necessity. Hunger approves of that he did what must be done; not that it must be. This is generally considered a sign of mental health.

In the absence of inescapable compulsion, he might only continue upon that undesirable, yet necessary path if that indeed was what he wanted all along. I don't believe that to be true, thus why I'm in disagreement and arguing against it. And as arguments to the contrary go, I've seen... four? Four raised:
1. Keeping the Progression
2. Spiting the Maiden
3. Vengeance against the Hidden Ones
4. Rescinding the Doom of the Tyrant

Progression is a means to an end. Hunger observes parlay even when undesirable. Rescinding the Doom of the Tyrant is not among his motives.
Only vengeance against the Hidden Ones is important to him. And it is, in fact, very much possible that vengeance is no longer worth pursuing, explicitly because to do so would require recreating the platonic agony of Procession via the Indenture under Apocryphal conditions. If he were driven by rage, it would make sense to mantle the source of his agony and wield it unrelentingly against his foes, even if it were no longer necessary.

But he is not. We chose the Blade. Vengeance is a messy business, to be concluded promptly. A responsibility, not a compulsion of its own. To knowingly accept a fate similar to the Procession would contradict this concept of vengeance, because it would preclude the same dignity that vengeance would restore. Vengeance is worth nothing without cause. For Hunger, that cause is now demonstrably self-defeating. The choice is no longer between fighting and running away, but between abeyance and recidivism.
Your whole argument relies on Hunger following an abstract conception of dignity which to me is not in evidence at all. More than the whole "Age and Treachery" thing, while The Blade option puts limits on vengeance, vengeance is still achieved; while Freedom now would be absconding that vengeance. Hunger, in all the actions of the quest, has been driven to perform retribution against them Hidden Ones; he understands the grim challenges before him, but surpassing them is not the worth of a Hero? There's a reason Vengeance gives Haliel favor.

We have still not fulfilled the responsibility of not only restoring what was lost, but giving the perpetrators it's due, so I contest that definition of Hunger's vengeance absolutely. And I think the very first vote of the quest is enough to demonstrate why:
*Some say the best revenge is living well. They are lying to themselves. One can strive to live well regardless, but there is no true substitute for revenge. No substitute for doing unto them what they did unto you, for passing sentence upon their richly deserving selves. King or noble, brazen masters or hidden ones... it matters not. When the hour arrives at last, there will be no justice here. Only vengeance.
 
Back
Top