Frankly, I think it has its limits and loses its luster as the numbers that are going up escalate forever.
One thing to keep in mind is that we're going to eventually reach the level at which "numbers" and "forever" stop mattering as concepts due to Progression. Which is the level we're aiming for, which invalidates the mention of Pascal's Mugging on account of the downsides being measurable (0.1-1% of reaching High Cursebearer, hence 99% chance of death), and the upsides being beyond the concept of human comprehension.
 
One thing to keep in mind is that we're going to eventually reach the level at which "numbers" and "forever" stop mattering as concepts due to Progression. Which is the level we're aiming for, which invalidates the mention of Pascal's Mugging on account of the downsides being measurable (0.1-1% of reaching High Cursebearer, hence 99% chance of death), and the upsides being beyond the concept of human comprehension.
Dropping infinities into Pascal's Mugging doesn't make it less of an instance of Pascal's Mugging.

The lesson of Pascal's Mugging is that sometimes it's a good idea to have a rule that says "you shouldn't endlessly gamble on slim chances of incredibly large rewards even if you're assured that they're really really incredible."
 
Dropping infinities into Pascal's Mugging doesn't make it less of an instance of Pascal's Mugging.

The lesson of Pascal's Mugging is that sometimes it's a good idea to have a rule that says "you shouldn't endlessly gamble on slim chances of incredibly large rewards even if you're assured that they're really really incredible."
I see your point but I am still of the idea that a measurable downside is irrelevant compared to what amounts to an infinite upside.
 
Rihaku did actually suggest that Hunger might actually have a higher chance of victory (w.r.t Hidden Ones) with Freedom, because he doesn't have the looming death chance of Apocryphal and thus can just apply Imperial Praxis and a build that isn't monomaniacally combat-based to eventually reach the powerlevels of the Vengeance option.

Remember, the Forebear became a HCB-level entity before without Progression, and with only the Royal Praxis.
 
Sometimes Hunger wondered if the drive to advancement, in its unremitting lunacy, was itself the most dangerous aspect of the Apocryphal Curse. In preparing for his greatest challenge, he had voluntarily subjected himself to a challenge even greater; his soul now a stained-glass mosaic, ruptured and pressed whole beneath the apocalyptic enormity of his current opponent. To that, the same refrain played as it always did, as it always must.

His soul could yield, his blade could yield, his Realm could yield, but he could not.
Such was the intensity demanded of his Ring, to find further purchase among the summits he'd reached. And yet he almost despaired that his journey had only begun.

The Accursed had done it, and Haeliel after him... a journey of such interminable length and ferocious hardship that it was literally inconceivable to Hunger in his present form. That was what pushed him onwards, what maintained his resolve: that the Hunger of tomorrow, would not be so weak as he was today.

[X] Vengeance
 
I see your point but I am still of the idea that a measurable downside is irrelevant compared to what amounts to an infinite upside.
In a universe where there are innumerable and often unknown paths to power that leaps and bounds beyond all conception, one cannot weigh the value of AN infinite upside as if it were the ONLY infinite upside, or that infinite downsides do not exist in relevant form.
 
This isn't a common misconception, but I'd like to clarify that the 0.1% - 1% odds for Hunger are summed across the entire probability spectrum of his entire journey; there is no raising the odds above that. The fact that Vengeance Hunger - he's the Forebear returned and has advancement rate and performance even beyond what's demonstrated in the quest - is absurd is what gives him those odds in the first place, and there are not really any further leaps available to push that probability above ~1% (which accounts for +Mental Stability from Arete and some degree of extradiegetic influence already).

What about Decimation?

Huntress' Moon. Similarly, the logistical difficulties imposed by Indenture can be overcome with sufficient power and ingenuity. Well beyond what the likes of Seram would reliably achieve, but Hunger is not Seram. He is a HC candidate.
 
Last edited:
{ } True Grand Solipist
{ } Legacy (1 orb)
{ } The Tiger (2 orbs)
{ } Archival Magic (1 orb)
{ } Inheritor (3 orbs)

{ } An Age of War
{ } Mazed

{ } Fatal Flaw - Solipsistic Pride(Proud Greed? Greedy Pride?)
{ } Pacifist


I will go the route of Archaon. Reality shall be subsumed into nothingness, becoming retroactively my own Azathothian dream, allowing me to mold the new reality in ways the Norns could only dream of. I expect the easiest method would be to make an immense Internal World in the style of Zang Kong and have it eat the outside world via an Extrusion. Pacifist, therefore, is a free Orb.

Using my Inheritor abilities(Artifice or Naturalism would likely work best) a Hyperbolic Time Chamber that prioritizes temporal acceleration for my personal use will be constructed. I should have at least a decade before Summer starts really coming into his power if I can manage a *10 on the flow of time, Tiger should start to come into it's own by that point, and if it boosts all my supernatural powers, there should be a multiplicative effect with pseudo-Thrice Great in Inheritor.

There are probably a number of Cultivation techniques that take a long time to bear fruit I can do while I wait, and studying Archival with any pieces of lore I collect on the outside should also be of worth. During forays outside, I will work to leverage my Legacy and what connections Mazed allows me to.

This build prioritizes maximum prep time memes, hence no direct empowerment of Summer in this regard. My Greed build would probably purchase Invulnerability for the early safety and the potential for Organ-Refining to be utterly ridiculous with Tiger bolstering everything. Plus, getting his with a 'a thousand years pass' attack could be used to cheese Tiger. Hell, I might cultivate an ally with an affinity for time shenanigans specifically to exploit that.

[X] Freedom

I don't trust the maiden's judgement, nor do I trust her. Frankly, I'm sure the me of a couple timelines over is saying Freedom is a Trap option using Apocryphal to masquerade as a good option.

However. I do trust The Accursed's judgement, and I do want to see one of my Greed builds made canon in the kids of Hunger and Gisena/Adorie/Augustine/Arcanist and the maiden. My Pride has never been a match for my Greed. Imperishable Night can still be learned either way, but Progression Cursebearer Hunger has better things to do. So. Freedom it is.

I have committed the ultimate betrayal of the anti-Simping Gang, and yet my ideals remain intact. For my petty hatred was but an outgrowth of disgust over hypocrisy. My opinion of Simping was indifferent. We were allies of convenience, nothing more.
 
Last edited:
The problem with this all is that Wolfy is right. Going Freedom is literally throwing away every single drop of sweat Hunger has put in his quest.
I think you've hit the nail on the head, except for one thing: it's our sweat that's being reallocated.

With recent evidence that High Cursebearer is a lost cause, I feel Vengeance is a sunk cost. It's an ending that pretends it doesn't end, offering a result we did not earn. We certainly feel like it was earned; there are people here who spent mightily of themselves making it this far. But these long odds tell the true story, that Hunger's power fantasy should not continue into the transfinite abyss. He will not make it.

It's a matter of pride, I get that. Everyone's here for a different reason, and it seems for many of us that reason isn't in the cards anymore. I'm not pleased by that, if only because your votes all matter as well. But suicide in detail is not a solution. Please do not martyr Hunger out of spite!
 
Vengeance gives us Stranglethorn, funnily enough:
The Forebear, naturally, gains the power of every non-contradictory advancement of the Forebear's Blade hence offered
I think you've hit the nail on the head, except for one thing: it's our sweat that's being reallocated.

With recent evidence that High Cursebearer is a lost cause, I feel Vengeance is a sunk cost. It's an ending that pretends it doesn't end, offering a result we did not earn. We certainly feel like it was earned; there are people here who spent mightily of themselves making it this far. But these long odds tell the true story, that Hunger's power fantasy should not continue into the transfinite abyss. He will not make it.
It is not "trasnfinite abyss", we have very clear goal we want to achieve - to lift Curse of Tyranny off the most powerful being in the universe, effectively increase pro human valiance of entire existence by noticeable amount. Lofty? Extremely so. Hard? Extremely so. Possible? Explicitly so.

Worth it? Without a question. It is not in Hunger to quit, and between Hunger and the uncaring universe, Hunger is not the one that will blink first. Really, what would that be but ultimate heroism, a feat of true significance in this universe of countless infinitudes that make mockery of every attempt at relevance? To remove a Curse, truly and finally. Just imagining scale of such achievement makes me giddy.

Once more, for a final time - Cut Through, now that we know Cutting Through is within the reach.
 
It is not "trasnfinite abyss", we have very clear goal we want to achieve - to lift Curse of Tyranny off the most powerful being in the universe, effectively increase pro human valiance of entire existence by noticeable amount. Lofty? Extremely so. Hard? Extremely so. Possible? Explicitly so.
Progression is by definition transfinite. Facing the Apocryphal Curse is definitely an abyss, among other rude epithets.

And getting to the point of Cutting out the Doom? LOL. You will fail. This is not a question. It's not 'hard', it's a numbers game. Someone will succeed, but it won't be Hunger.
 
And getting to the point of Cutting out the Doom? LOL. You will fail. This is not a question. It's not 'hard', it's a numbers game. Someone will succeed, but it won't be Hunger.
It is a numbers game that leans heavily into our favor though. Less than one in a million chance for a task of this scale? No wonder Haeliel is against this, imagine being so afraid of mere on in a thousand chance! How sad she will be, knowing that her chosen is such a scardy cat..
 
Just because his did it before doesn't mean he has to do it again. As far as I know we don't even know why he fought the accursed in the first place.
He's not going to suddenly turn evil or anti-Accursed because who the fuck knows.
Then why did the Accursed bring it up as a live possibility?
"Once you proscribed to pay me back for the powers I had imparted on you. Do me this favor, old foe: rest. Let me never again be forced to take up arms against you...

…It was a difficult enough fight the first time."
Do people really think they know better than the Accursed? Like Rihaku said in the discord:

R' — Yesterday at 7:41 PM
Maybe the Accursed... actually knows what he's talking about?

And it's not like you need the Accursed infinite intellect (escalated through NaN transfinite escalation of cardinalities, etc.) to see how Vengeance could lead to that possibility: to chose Vengeance here is to chose for Hunger to disregard the recommendations of the wisest being in all of existence and non-existence combined, the very being who gave him is power and is now asking for him to please stop because he doesn't want to have to fight the Forebear again, because Hunger think he knows better. That's not a story that has an happy ending. That's a tragedy.

And if that's what you want, if you want this story to be a tragedy, then I have no objections to that. It would certainly be fitting in a way. But please be aware this is what you are voting for.
 
Can we really know anything about what the accursed is like or might do with the universe without curses? It seems he is altered to such an extent it's impossible.

Not that I've read anywhere near enough of this to know if I'm missing something.
 
[X] Vengeance

Do, or do not. But always try.

When it comes down to it, Hunger chose vengeance. At the very start of this quest, when the odds were unknown and insurmountable, even still he chose to pick up his sword and fight. Though it came at the cost of resurrecting his loved ones, he chose the opportunity to rise beyond the Hidden Ones and deliver upon them justice in the form of well-deserved retribution. Over the course of his story, he and the thread as a whole, have made choices consistent with that goal. To abandon it now, is not merely distasteful but the height of folly. A betrayal of what Hunger stands for, what the Forebear represents. The promise to himself and the world that the Hidden Ones would be punished for their sins, that the possibly infinite Procession of Worlds forged for the sake of suffering and amusement would be avenged.

We knew going in that becoming a High Cursebearer was almost impossible, but we committed to the path anyway. Why? Because the act of committing was always more important than attaining. In exertion, ascension is thus achieved. The world may not allow for us to succeed. But the nature of the Art is to not care for the world. Here and now, we stand on a precipice of a possibly neverending story, but one that contributes to an ending of true victory, not just for Hunger himself but for the countless casualties to the Hidden Ones and the status-quo, and for countless more individuals who will be bettered by our work. That is not a mere choice, it's a duty and its weight is truly beyond eons.

But Hunger is one best suited to carrying it. To continue down that path, for the sake of his promise, for the sake of the Accursed and the sake of a kinder world. Forward, always and forever.

0.1 to 1%? That sounds impossible, like something that cannot be done. But still...

Do, even if it cannot be done.
 
[X] Freedom

It's actually worse than 0.1 to 1%, is the thing.

In that spectrum of possibilities Hunger hits HC class, it's still possible for him to have become a tyrant that the Accursed has to fight again.

The odds that we hit HC and avoid that are a narrower band.

Personally, I'm keen on letting the man finally rest.
 
If not hunger,who would walk the path? If hunger puts down the blade and accepts the freedom end, who else would pick the vengeance option? All ot takes for evil to win is for a good man to do nothing, and even now even as a Tyrant, Hunger is the archtypical Good Man Who Fights
 
Back
Top