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A Simple Transaction I

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Orm Embar said:
That particular line was me quoting the author:
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They are not misaligned, the Accursed's cause and his wishes are not opposed to each other.

Edit: And you think the fractions of a conversation hunger has had with the Accursed and Haeliel are enough for him to know better than the very source of information he is basing his decision on?
 
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qwolfs said:
They are not misaligned, the Accursed's cause and his wishes are not opposed to each other.

Edit: And you think the fractions of a conversation hunger has had with the Accursed and Haeliel are enough for him to know better than the very source of information he is basing his decision on?
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Rihaku's post and Vengeance's text paint it as the option which maximizes the odds of the Accursed's victory, describing the odds of lifting the Doom as "not even that remote." I think the Accursed advocating for Freedom is him doing Hunger a kindness, and that Hunger is fundamentally strong enough not to need that reprieve - and with Haeliel's help, good enough not to fall into evil if he carries on. Also, because the Accursed is in fact Cursed with Hubris he's likely underweighting the utility of potentially having Hunger as a relevant ally.

Maybe he can win without the additional help. Certainly we here are all hoping that's the case. But he shouldn't have to. Tyranny's one of the primary obstacles to cooperative organizations like the Cursebearer's Association! And on some level, isn't it Hunger's mess to clean up? The Forebear broke it, therefore the Forebear should fix it if it's within his power. If more might is required, so be it.
 
Box Lunch said:
Specifically, it says:

Since Combat-classes can have the Apocryphal Curse (as we saw with one of the alternatives to Haeliel we didn't pick) I think the phrasing merely indicates the coincidence of his relinquished Progression and Apocryphal status. They aren't necessarily causing one-another.

The latter half, on the other hand, provides a rationalization completely in alignment with the behavior of the Curse, which has been consistently fluid and willing to ignore expectations of it in favor of novel and complex interpretations of its role. Especially since this simple transaction is mentioned to be backed by the Apocryphal Curse here:

-Implying that the Freedom option is sponsored explicitly by her. Supporting this, it's in her color as well.
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*The Apocryphal Curse will depart as Hunger relinquishes his command over the Lathe of Heaven. Hunger will remain a Combat-type Cursebearer with all his other Curses.
This part of the option is talking about the apocryphal curse. It explicitly says it departs as we relinquish our command over the lathe of heaven i.e cease being a progression cursebearer.

For one such as he, of course, such a burden hardly counts as adversity. That's fine. Some endings are interesting enough to not be worth perturbing with future drama.
This part however is just saying it's fine that Hunger's too strong for all the other curses and he doesn't need to spice up his retirement with extra danger. I don't think you can shuck off the apocryphal curse just by living an interesting life, if you could the Accursed wouldn't be having an issue in the first place.
 
qwolfs said:
They are not misaligned, the Accursed's cause and his wishes are not opposed to each other.
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The dichotomy is put plainly in the text. Do we allow ourselves to rest, or do we persist? The Accursed seems to have some sentiment involved with his choice, a chance to let the Bodhisattva of Blades finally rest, and put an end to his grim duty. But why should he?

If the Accursed turned around and said "actually, the status quo is okay," should those who take up up arms in his service then cease their efforts? No, because they don't fight for him, or shouldn't at any rate. He'd be the first to discourage worship of any sort. No, they should keep fighting whether or not he approves, because they're fighting for a better world than this. It does him credit, that he'd show compassion to a vanquished foe, but neither Hunger nor the Forebear have ever fought so that they personally can reach that kindness, but so that all the worlds there are may benefit from it.

There are worlds of unspeakable torment that may be righted, and might only be righted by sheer force of arms. Blood will be spilt and war will be had, but war is not always the wrong answer when faced with unspeakable torment. Sometimes, there is evil and it must be vanquished, with fire and sword. So, do we choose Justice, or do we choose Freedom?

But above all, it is a choice that the Seraph of Heroism finds value in. Whatever you might think, it cannot be so devoid of virtue as all that.
 
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LET'S FUCKING GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Goddamn.

Just. Goddamn.

My vocabulary laid insufficient. Vernacular a charred implement.

WE'RE FINALLY HERE BOIS

God.

I want Vengeance for the Victorious ending for the Accursed, but Hunger choosing Freedom also has its merits.

I need people who are more aware than I am to help me parse through the possibilities.
 
Orm Embar said:
Rihaku's post and Vengeance's text paint it as the option which maximizes the odds of the Accursed's victory, describing the odds of lifting the Doom as "not even that remote." I think the Accursed advocating for Freedom is him doing Hunger a kindness, and that Hunger is fundamentally strong enough not to need that reprieve - and with Haeliel's help, good enough not to fall into evil if he carries on. Also, because the Accursed is in fact Cursed with Hubris he's likely underweighting the utility of potentially having Hunger as a relevant ally.

Maybe he can without the additional help. Certainly we here are all hoping that's the case. But he shouldn't have to. Tyranny's one of the primary obstacles to cooperative organizations like the Cursebearer's Association! And on some level, isn't it Hunger's mess to clean up? He broke it, therefore he should fix it if it's within his power.
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As mentioned, lifting the Doom but the having to fight Hunger may not be worth it.

This seems to be how the Accursed has weighted these options, where Vengeance gives a higher probability of lifting the Doom but also fighting Hunger, and Freedom gives a lower chance of lifting the Doom, but if Hunger succeeds the Accursed doesn't have to fight him.

Lealope said:
But above all, it is a choice that the Seraph of Heroism finds value in. Whatever you might think, it cannot be so devoid of virtue as all that.
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Yes, if you value Haeliel's judgement, values, or goals, more than the Accursed then Vengeance is the correct choice.

I prefer the Accursed, in this instance, so vote Freedom.
 
Some clarifications:

1) It should hardly need to be said, but the option the Accursed prefers is Freedom. The text makes that abundantly clear.

2) In Freedom, The Apocryphal Curse is departing because Freedom is an interesting enough ending for the story of the Forebear and Hunger. But if Hunger did not relinquish Progression, it would not so depart. The former is the cause; the second is a necessary additional condition. Buying a ticket entitles you to ride the train, if you are also tall enough to ride.

3) From an expected-value standpoint, as best Hunger or anyone around him can tell, he most hastens the Victorious World by choosing Vengeance. Haeliel seems to be more in agreement with this than not. The Accursed, aside from what he's already said, keeps his own counsel.

4) If True Catherine is resurrected, they will get back together.

5) We can hardly imagine that the Forebear has a ~0.1-1% chance of becoming a High Cursebearer and yet Freedom Hunger would still struggle with Indenture, Tyranny and Decimation without the interference of the Apocryphal Curse. The latter three would be little more than a serious inconvenience to his like; if it comes down to it he can simply Cut Through.
 
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My estimation of expected returns was incorrect, this significantly improves Vengeance's value.

Returning to Catherine is not my preference, either.

But, a favor has been called in, and it's not too terrible a price, so my vote has not changed. That is somewhat unfortunate.
 
Rihaku said:
2) In Freedom, The Apocryphal Curse is departing because Freedom is an interesting enough ending for the story of the Forebear and Hunger. But if Hunger did not relinquish Progression, it would not so depart. The former is the cause; the second is a necessary additional condition. Buying a ticket entitles you to ride the train, if you are also tall enough to ride.
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Is picking a Freedom variant where we don't give up Progression an option?
Orm Embar said:
The coloration's more of a callback to the opening vote of the quest. "Every story has been told before," and all that.
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Well yeah, but there's a reason that's her color too?
Box Lunch said:
And yeah, Wolber would have totally aced any other single Curse trivially. The Apocryphal is literally the only one that would have challenged him at all.
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May You Come To The Attention Of Those In Power would probably have given him trouble, and Doom of the Culling definitely would have.
 
HoratioVonBecker said:
May You Come To The Attention Of Those In Power would probably have given him trouble, and Doom of the Culling definitely would have.
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Eh, he'd just cut a deal. His only goal is Curse mitigation; he'll suborn himself to any authority if they don't outright ban Praxis research forever. And the Doom of the Culling was a minor curse extending off the edge of Indenture - he couldn't have it as his sole curse.
 
Rihaku said:
Some clarifications:

1) It should hardly need to be said, but the option the Accursed prefers is Freedom. The text makes that abundantly clear.

2) In Freedom, The Apocryphal Curse is departing because Freedom is an interesting enough ending for the story of the Forebear and Hunger. But if Hunger did not relinquish Progression, it would not so depart. The former is the cause; the second is a necessary additional condition. Buying a ticket entitles you to ride the train, if you are also tall enough to ride.

3) From an expected-value standpoint, as best Hunger or anyone around him can tell, he most hastens the Victorious World by choosing Vengeance. Haeliel seems to be more in agreement with this than not. The Accursed, aside from what he's already said, keeps his own counsel.

4) If True Catherine is resurrected, they will get back together.

5) We can hardly imagine that the Forebear has a ~0.1-1% chance of becoming a High Cursebearer and yet Freedom Hunger would still struggle with Indenture, Tyranny and Decimation without the interference of the Apocryphal Curse. The latter three would be little more than a serious inconvenience to his like; if it comes down to it he can simply Cut Through.
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Offhand any chance that hunger as a combat type cursebearer would reach high cursebearer? We don't actually get to see if they reach it no matter which option we pick right?
 
[X] Freedom

The chance of Vengeance achieving anything substantive is minuscule. The chance of Freedom achieving it's goals is as certain as anything can be. And I like those odds much better.
 
LeMat said:
[X] Freedom

The chance of Vengeance achieving anything substantive is minuscule. The chance of Freedom achieving it's goals is as certain as anything can be. And I like those odds much better.
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Rihaku said:
*There's a chance, not even that remote, that the Forebear returned will one day be capable of lifting the Doom of Tyranny from the Accursed's shoulders, and realize his vengeance against the Hidden Ones. After all, it was no less than he who broke free of the Bleak Procession by strength alone. If successful, then by definition he would be a High Cursebearer - capable of performing an act relevant to the Accursed himself.
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The vengeance option explicitly says we have a not even that remote chance of lifting the Doom of Tyranny, which would be extremely substantial.

Freedom doesn't even have any goals, it;s just a "and then they lived happily ever after" ending. I mean unless the Hidden Ones still want to screw us over, in which case it's a "I guess we pay off the geas of Indeture for a while and then die horribly" ending.

We also might actually get vengeance against the Hidden Ones, which although we've gotten pretty sidetracked over the course of this quest was actually our original goal.
 
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Orm Embar said:
Nope.
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*puzzled look*
I'm asking if we can accept the Maiden's deal, but don't give up Progression in order to remove Apocryphal. That would cost us ~150 Arete and twenty picks worth of Forebear advancements, which suggests an interesting symmetry with Committed Haeliel, but I'm willing to spend that much on mitigating value drift.
What did you think linking the post I quoted would clarify?
 
Word from discord is that Rihaku puts Hunger's odds of reaching High Cursebearer status with Vengeance in the 0.1%-1% range. Which is incredible! But also pretty small objectively.
 
firefrog600 said:
I'm kinda curious if any combat type cursebearers have reached high cursebearer with just the praxis and sheer unrelenting autism and time.
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I believe it was stated at one point that it had never been done, but if it were to be so, such an individual would definitely be one of the Accursed's finest.

Or something to that effect. With just Praxis, it's kind of hard to imagine happening. You'd have to be good enough at the boss's personal fighting style to do things that are relevant to him, even though he could already just up and do all of that himself. It's a catch-22.
 
Man.

I'm sure everyone's thought it, but I wanna voice it.

Last Apocryphal Event will be the Accursed, either by Hunger's hand or the Accursed's own triggering, and ending ForeHunger will be what causes the Doom to be lifted.

Killed him once and got the curse bestowed. Galaxy Brain solution is to kill him again to remove it.
 
Box Lunch said:
I believe it was stated at one point that it had never been done, but if it were to be so, such an individual would definitely be one of the Accursed's finest.
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The opposite, it has been done. By people more outrageous than even Hunger, but it has been done.

Box Lunch said:
Or something to that effect. With just Praxis, it's kind of hard to imagine happening. You'd have to be good enough at the boss's personal fighting style to do things that are relevant to him, even though he could already just up and do all of that himself. It's a catch-22.
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The minimum threshold of HC status is better conceptualized (for familiarity) as "can achieve complete mitigation of their own personal Curses."
 
LordOfMurder said:
The vengeance option explicitly says we have a not even that remote chance of lifting the Doom of Tyranny, which would be extremely substantial.

Freedom doesn't even have any goals, it;s just a "and then they lived happily ever after" ending. I mean unless the Hidden Ones still want to screw us over, in which case it's a "I guess we pay off the geas of Indeture for a while and then die horribly" ending.

We also might actually get vengeance against the Hidden Ones, which although we've gotten pretty sidetracked over the course of this quest was actually our original goal.
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Just imagine, we might learn something about the actual architects of Hunger's tragedy! Vengeance aside, I'm very curious. In about a week it'll be the three year anniversary of AST I's launch, and we still know virtually nothing about them. The Ring of Blood's reveal had some lore implications, a couple of CYOAs have hinted at things, and... that's it. Whether or not Hunger ultimately succeeds, I want the catharsis of having someone to hate on his behalf. Baenlixnaire at least could see Fate!

I think Freedom is the Hidden Ones 'screwing' Hunger over in some sense, honestly. Torpedoing his chances of becoming a threat by arranging for him to lose the Lathe, restoring his wife and child so he has no motive to act against them. Impossible to prove, as they live up to their appellation. But just ask yourself: cui bono? That Hunger himself will be happy does nothing for the countless innocents who will suffer from their caprice in the future.

Edit: WoG heavily implies no intervention by Them here.
 
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