East Africa 1930: An ORBAT Quest
- Thread starter 4WheelSword
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
- Location
- The Netherlands
Don't we need to first figure out how to get more steel and machining industrial capacity before we start making something like a tractor factory.
The whole reason i suggested satchel charges, was so we could have a weapon that did not impact those industries that much. Althoug i must admit the smaller AT grenade suggestion was a better weapon.
Yes, but demand can drive growth. There's also been a general slump in demand for steel lately with our shipyards shutting down, so we might have an abundance and the bottlenecks are lower down the chain (e.g., at the national weapons factory).
The smaller AT grenade suggestion is just making the satchel charges throwable, it was meant to build on your (good) idea.
Nope, we already got the okay. Our production has plateau'd for around 5 quarters at 1k per annum, but per QM, this could increase if demand increases.
That said, Jprice is (I think) referring to this from two updates back:
- Location
- The Netherlands
Yep that's the one.
- Location
- Fort Worth, TX
[X] Plan: Army preparedness, yes boat
Vote closed
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
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- It/She/They
Turn 13 Vote: January 1933
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Turn 13 Vote: January 1933
Project Development
Ongoing Projects
[X] Establish the Ordnance Office - Developing an arms industry from scratch will take time and effort. An Ordnance Office will allow us to delegate some of that work to specialists. (Constant Investment.)[X] Production Licensing: Machine Guns - Attempt to buy the rights to produce the ZB vz.30 in 6.5×50 mmSR. (3 Months Remain) ☑☑☑◻
[X] Establish the Carabinieri Oversight Office - No one really keeps an eye on the paramilitary police force that keeps watch over the nation. If the force is to be reformed and re-established in a new role, then oversight is needed at the very least. (Constant Investment.)[X] Organisational Reform: Wilderness Rangers - The Carabinieri is responsible for massive tracts of rural land. A specialist ranger unit trained in long-distance patrol and survival would be useful to the force as a whole. (3 Months Remain) ☑☑◻
Completed Projects
[X] Information Review: Government - Determine what the civilian government wants out of their armed forces. (Complete!) ☑[X] New Council Liaisons: Create permanent non-voting liaisons for the armed services and industry. Two will go to the armed services (one for each service, currently the Army and Carabineri), and three will be industrial representatives: one for each of the arms industry, the rail industry, the recognized unions in these industries. (Complete!) ☑
Kismayo-Turkana Line:
Progress, Marsabit-Turkana: 70% (Est. completion October 1933)
Arisaka Rifles, Orders, and Production:
Progress, Rifle Deliveries: 80% (Est. completion March 1933)
Progress, Rifle Factory: 3 rifles per day
Type 3 HMG Project:
Progress, Reverse Engineering: Experiencing delays.
Reports
Heavy Machine Gun Project
The rifle factory had expected they would be beginning low-rate manufacture of their Type 3 heavy machine gun next month, but the project has run into significant issues. The assembled prototypes have serious reliability issues; Army inspectors note that the machine guns are in such a poor state they would consider them in dire need of repair or replacement. The rifle factory is hard at work locating the source of these problems.Defence Council Investment - October 1932
The Defence Council currently has two investment points available to be spent on any area.Industry and Logistics
Armaments[ ] Weapon Testing: Anti-Air Weapons - The Ordnance Office will buy a handful of machine guns and cannons from around the world and test them until they break. Afterwards, they will make recommendations to the Defence Council on the topic of AA weapons. (6-Month Investment. Recommendations will be made at the end of this process.)
[ ] Weapon Testing: Anti-Tank Weapons - The Ordnance Office will research a handful of field guns and large calibre rifles from around the world. Afterwards, they will make recommendations to the Defence Council on the topic of AT weapons. (6-Month Investment. Recommendations will be made at the end of this process.)
[ ] Increase Funding: Type 3 - By funnelling additional investment towards the Type 3 project, it may be possible to have a prototype ready faster. (6-Month Investment.)
[ ] Restructure the Ordnance Office - Reduce staffing in the Ordnance Office to retain oversight of programs in progress and free up capital for investment elsewhere. This does not cost an investment point and can be done at any time. (3-Month Investment.)
Breeding and Working
[ ] Restructure the Veterinary Oversight Office - To reduce operational costs the Veterinary Oversight Office has been shrunk significantly. Funding and personnel would allow the Office to perform specialised tasks. (3 Months, Constant Investment)
Doctrine and Organisation
DCIRRO[ ] Establish the Information Review Team - This group will be tasked with drafting reports on various arms of the internal structure of Reewiin. (12-Month Investment. Will enable additional work in this specific area, including write-in Information Review requests.)
[ ] Information Review: Government - Determine what the civilian government wants out of their armed forces. (3-Month Investment.)
[ ] Analysis: Ethiopia - Long-term analysis of the optimal army to defend Reewiin against our eternal enemy, Ethiopia. (6-Month Investment.)
[ ] Analysis: Britain - Long-term analysis of the optimal army to defend Reewiin against our eternal enemy, Britain. (6-Month Investment.)
[ ] Analysis: Italy - Long-term analysis of the optimal army to defend Reewiin against our eternal enemy, Italy. (6-Month Investment.)
[ ] Analysis: The Foreigners Have Some Good Ideas - Send observation teams overseas to take the best ideas from foreign nations. (6-Month Investment.)
[ ] Send Observers: Bolivia - Send a military attaché to learn from the Bolivian army's experiences on the Chaco front. (Until recalled or conflict ends)
[ ] Send Observers: Paraguay - Send a military attaché to learn from the Paraguayan army's experiences on the Chaco front. (Until recalled or conflict ends)
Reforming the Carabinieri
[ ] Restructure the Carabinieri Office - Reduce staffing in the Carabinieri Office to retain oversight of programs in progress and free up capital for investment elsewhere. This does not cost an investment point and can be done at any time. (3-Month Investment.)
Reforming the Army
[ ] Manoeuvre Training - The Army Review has determined that Reewiin's standing military is not currently fit for the task. Field manoeuvres will begin to improve this. (6-Month Investment.)
[ ] Optional: Request Japanese support for this program, improving impacts and benefiting from IJN institutional knowledge.
[ ] Optional: Request Japanese support for this program, improving impacts and benefiting from IJA institutional knowledge.
[ ] Marksmanship Training - With an average of twenty rounds per man per year, marksmanship is of very poor quality. Regular range training will begin to improve this, not only for the infantry but for the cavalry and artillery too. (6-Month Investment.)
[ ] Optional: Request Japanese support for this program, improving impacts and benefiting from IJN institutional knowledge.
[ ] Optional: Request Japanese support for this program, improving impacts and benefiting from IJA institutional knowledge.
[ ] Cavalry Training - The Cavalry are loath to conduct operations en-masse, leaving them poorly equipped for the field. Regular deployments into central Reewiin will begin to improve this. (6-Month Investment.)
[ ] Optional: Request Japanese support for this program, improving impacts and benefiting from IJA institutional knowledge.
[ ] Artillery Training - Our artillery capability is doctrinally obsolescent, with all firing conducted over open sights. More realistic training will begin to improve this. (6-Month Investment.)
[ ] Optional: Request Japanese support for this program, improving impacts and benefiting from IJN institutional knowledge.
[ ] Optional: Request Japanese support for this program, improving impacts and benefiting from IJA institutional knowledge.
[ ] Establish an Officer Academy - Our officers are currently trained in an ad-hoc fashion. The establishment of a proper Academy would allow us to educate more officers, and provide a centre for spreading doctrinal advances across the military by running a series of advanced courses and bringing able officers back as instructors. (12-Month Investment.)
[ ] Optional: Request Japanese support for this program, improving impacts and benefiting from IJN institutional knowledge. (Reduces to 6-Month Investment)
[ ] Optional: Request Japanese support for this program, improving impacts and benefiting from IJA institutional knowledge. (Reduces to 6-Month Investment)
[ ] Establish an Infantry School - Our riflemen are currently trained in an ad-hoc fashion. The establishment of a proper School would allow us to drill our soldiers in more advanced tactics and provide a single baseline for all of our forces, so that officers can more easily assume command of troops they have not trained with. (12-Month Investment.)
[ ] Optional: Request Japanese support for this program, improving impacts and benefiting from IJN institutional knowledge. (Reduces to 6-Month Investment)
[ ] Optional: Request Japanese support for this program, improving impacts and benefiting from IJA institutional knowledge. (Reduces to 6-Month Investment)
[ ] Enlarge the Officers Corps - The Army of Reewiin lacks many things, one of which is junior officers. While this is not a significant issue at the high level, it leaves the junior officers seriously overworked. Beginning a major drive to recruit and train new officers will shift this issue towards the positive. (12-Month Investment.)
[ ] Enlarge the Army - Currently, Reewiin maintains a standing Army of 6,000 men organised into five effective battalions. There are several options for enlarging this; select one or more:
[ ] Establish a more formal reservist force from those claiming their pension.
[ ] Increase recruitment - Write in the desired force size.
[ ] Write in.
[ ] Confine Idle Soldiers to Barracks - We can't have the Army tarnishing its image by gambling and causing trouble on the streets! Confining the soldiers to their barracks when they don't have leave will keep them from being a nuisance. (3-Month Investment).
A New Ship
[ ] Form a Naval Service: Carabinieri Maritime Policing Unit - The Kutulo could most easily be subsumed into the Carabinieri, since they already have a boat section for policing Lake Turkana. (3-Month Investment.)
You are more than welcome to ask questions about what is acceptable as a write-in vote.
There will be a 6-hour moratorium on voting to encourage discussion. The vote will close in three days.
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- Location
- an unseen void
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Forming the naval service now seems correct. Probably also send observers? We can recall them if things get really tight but I want to Learn Things.
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Well, the machine gun timeline is unfortunate but it looks like we may not be ready for it technically. We can see if it improves but we should be wary of trying to design our own 37mms barring radical improvements. Just an LMG and our assorted other guns are OK for a while, if necessary.
I think we should immediately form the Carabineri Naval Service so that we can put it into operation as soon as Wilderness Rangers completes - for the other slot training seems like a good idea, probably.
I think we should immediately form the Carabineri Naval Service so that we can put it into operation as soon as Wilderness Rangers completes - for the other slot training seems like a good idea, probably.
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4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
- Pronouns
- It/She/They
You saw nothing.
Well, damn. The machine guns are Not Going Well. Agreed with @Dessard; if these don't work out within the next turn or two, we'll have to do an alternate plan. 4wheelsword's comment makes me think they will not.
Thoughts on some other options:
Also, I'm mostly in favour of Paraguay since I think they're closer to Reewiin than Bolivia is.
Edit: Point usage table
Our 4 objectives:
Thoughts on some other options:
Before voting on this, I'd like to know how the Hotchkiss 13.2 mm HMGs are doing! If the Army doesn't see a huge problem with them right now, then keeping them as standard kit and getting a few more seems like a good idea. We don't have to spend six point-months on it, while also maintaining ammunition commonality. Does the Army liaison know anything about how the troops are taking to the 13.2s?
Not just yet, but ARSENAL OF DECOLONIZATION is an idea I am 100% behind if we somehow get a lot of free points later.
Always the bridesmaid, never the bride, I think it may be a good opportunity to do this very soon. It'd synergize well with sending observers to Paraguay and as a step prior to our establishment of an actual officer school. We need to know who's got the good ideas before we can copy them.
Yes.
Also, I'm mostly in favour of Paraguay since I think they're closer to Reewiin than Bolivia is.
I think we should get on this soon-ish. Having confidence in their own weapons is important.
Do you guys think this is valuable before we get modernized artillery? It's important long term, but I'm not sure if it's high priority this early.
The Big One for this three-year period. I want to take The Foreigners Have Some Good Ideas before we do this in the hopes that we can get support from a more broad spectrum - military advisors from Czechoslovakia, Britain, etc. would help dilute Japan's worse influences and provide a balanced curriculum (e.g., the extreme tactical specialization of German officer training offset by the strategic and logistical focus of the British).
Something we could do later is to not quite this, but instead offer education to soldiers in the barracks. Pay people to conduct night classes, which will both keep soldiers occupied while also contributing to a skilled workforce once they leave the Army.
If we do this please let's at least rip some of the 6" guns off and use them to construct a coastal battery outside Kismayo.
Edit: Point usage table
| Q2 1933 | Q3 1933 | Q4 1933 | Q1 1934 | |
| Ordnance Board | Production Licensing ZB 30 | ? | ? | ? |
| Carabinieri Officce | Wilderness Rangers | ? | ? | ? |
| ? | ? | ? | ? | |
| ? | ? | ? | ? |
- Reform the Army with a focus on training and leadership.
- Reform the Army with a focus on artillery and supporting arms, including AA/AT weapons.
- Laying the groundwork for, and making a modest beginning to, army expansion.
- Resolve the question of the Kutulo by establishing a small Carabineri naval service.
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- an unseen void
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Some of the guns off one ship is like the halfhearted start of a coastal battery. I don't think that's worth it.
I'm down for doing Foreigners Have Some Good Ideas so that we actually put the DCIRRO to work.
I'm down for doing Foreigners Have Some Good Ideas so that we actually put the DCIRRO to work.
A standard coastal battery is usually around 4 guns. A single battery wouldn't be huge, but it'd represent laying groundwork for future coastal artillery. They're not much use on Kutulo right now, and having some 6" guns protecting the harbour means we're less likely to get Port Arthur'd.
Sadly, we just missed the sinkex of the Aso; we could have grabbed 6 more 6" guns off of her.
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Here's what I'd propose for the year at this point:
I think we'll need to spend some resources in the Carabineri Office to actually get the ship crewed and operational, but in order to start on our critical officer training, troop training and foreign observer capabilities I think expanding the naval service beyond that will need to be pushed to later in the plan if not the next one. Hopefully we can do the basics with just two quarters of work but it could take more.
Meanwhile, I think we need to start the Officer Training School ASAP so that we can complete it plus Enlarge the Officers Corps early on. The sooner those happen, the better both from the perspective of getting it done in time for expansion, and general experience-building. And I don't think it's an area where we want to get the IJA/IJN involved. I don't think we need to do observers first since the curriculum should always be evolving anyway.
Marksmanship Training is a big priority because not only do we need it, it supports us hammering the army into shape in several ways. It puts our weapons and uniforms to practical test at a much larger scale than before. It is a relatively easy organizational task for our soldiers and officers to learn to work out. And, it makes the soldiers feel like soldiers and have something to be proud of before we start making them sleep in the dirt, work on roads, and so on. And with training being so desperately needed and us having kept putting it off, I don't want to put it off any farther.
| 1933 | Q1 | Q2 | Q3 | Q4 |
| Ordnance Board | Production Licensing ZB 30 | ? | ? | ? |
| Carabinieri Office | Wilderness Rangers (3/3) | Boat Stuff | Boat Stuff | Close down the office if possible to send out observers |
| Free | Establish the Naval Service | Officer Training School (1/4) | Officer Training School (2/4) | Officer Training School (3/4) |
| Free | Marksmanship (with Japanese help) (1/2) | Marksmanship (with Japanese help) (1/2) | Maneuver? Roads? DCIRRO observers? | Maneuver? Roads? DCIRRO observers? |
I think we'll need to spend some resources in the Carabineri Office to actually get the ship crewed and operational, but in order to start on our critical officer training, troop training and foreign observer capabilities I think expanding the naval service beyond that will need to be pushed to later in the plan if not the next one. Hopefully we can do the basics with just two quarters of work but it could take more.
Meanwhile, I think we need to start the Officer Training School ASAP so that we can complete it plus Enlarge the Officers Corps early on. The sooner those happen, the better both from the perspective of getting it done in time for expansion, and general experience-building. And I don't think it's an area where we want to get the IJA/IJN involved. I don't think we need to do observers first since the curriculum should always be evolving anyway.
Marksmanship Training is a big priority because not only do we need it, it supports us hammering the army into shape in several ways. It puts our weapons and uniforms to practical test at a much larger scale than before. It is a relatively easy organizational task for our soldiers and officers to learn to work out. And, it makes the soldiers feel like soldiers and have something to be proud of before we start making them sleep in the dirt, work on roads, and so on. And with training being so desperately needed and us having kept putting it off, I don't want to put it off any farther.
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@xthetenth, you didn't threadmarked the update.
If the Army hasn't encountered any problems with the Hotchkiss 13.2 mm machine gun, then we can get the Ordnance Board to purchase more of them. Right now, iirc, we have 4 per regiment and 4 for training; it'd be nice if we could get them down to the battalion or company level as well as having some for the Carabinieri in fixed locations (e.g., defending border forts or cities), for training and for future army expansion.
Agreed on marksmanship being high-ish priority.
I'd like to keep the Carabinieri office around because I think there's quite a few things it could do and the Carabinieri is significant as the only branch of the military in which Bantu people can serve.
I'm concerned about starting the officer training school before we actually have a curriculum. If we're not asking for Japanese help, which we shouldn't, how are we going to know what to teach? My gut feel is that both Foreign Ideas and Attaches are a prerequisite to doing it right.
What about something like this?
| 1933 | Q1 | Q2 | Q3 | Q4 | Q1 1934 |
| Ordnance Board | Production Licensing ZB 30 | Buy 13.2 mm AA gun | Buy 13.2 mm AA gun | ||
| Carabinieri Office | Wilderness Rangers (3/3) | Boat Stuff | Boat Stuff | Boat Stuff, or radios, LRDG, airplanes, etc. | ? |
| Free | Establish the Naval Service | Attaches | Attaches | Attaches | Attaches |
| Free | Foreign Ideas | Foreign Ideas | Marksmanship | Marksmanship | Officer Training School |
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I don't think we necessarily need a curriculum based on foreign observations to start off - with our existing officer shortage (no squad-level officers at all), varying regimental cultures, weak indoctrination for on civilian control of the military and need for expansion - just increasing throughput, standardizing training and putting the right people in charge would be an improvement.
Also, an academy would have value not just for training new officers, but also for processing and implementing the information we do gain from experience and observation.
Also, an academy would have value not just for training new officers, but also for processing and implementing the information we do gain from experience and observation.
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[X] Plan: Learn Things
-[X] Form a Naval Service: Carabinieri Maritime Policing Unit - The Kutulo could most easily be subsumed into the Carabinieri, since they already have a boat section for policing Lake Turkana.
-[X] Analysis: The Foreigners Have Some Good Ideas - Send observation teams overseas to take the best ideas from foreign nations. (6-Month Investment.)
--[X] Send typed-out contact info along with our observation team should they find foreign officers who are open to come teach in Reewiin.
-[X] Form a Naval Service: Carabinieri Maritime Policing Unit - The Kutulo could most easily be subsumed into the Carabinieri, since they already have a boat section for policing Lake Turkana.
-[X] Analysis: The Foreigners Have Some Good Ideas - Send observation teams overseas to take the best ideas from foreign nations. (6-Month Investment.)
--[X] Send typed-out contact info along with our observation team should they find foreign officers who are open to come teach in Reewiin.
- Pronouns
- He/They
[X] Plan: Basic Training
-[X] Marksmanship Training - With an average of twenty rounds per man per year, marksmanship is of very poor quality. Regular range training will begin to improve this, not only for the infantry but for the cavalry and artillery too. (6-Month Investment.)
--[X] Optional: Request Japanese support for this program, improving impacts and benefiting from IJA institutional knowledge.
-[X] Form a Naval Service: Carabinieri Maritime Policing Unit - The Kutulo could most easily be subsumed into the Carabinieri, since they already have a boat section for policing Lake Turkana. (3-Month Investment.)
-[X] Marksmanship Training - With an average of twenty rounds per man per year, marksmanship is of very poor quality. Regular range training will begin to improve this, not only for the infantry but for the cavalry and artillery too. (6-Month Investment.)
--[X] Optional: Request Japanese support for this program, improving impacts and benefiting from IJA institutional knowledge.
-[X] Form a Naval Service: Carabinieri Maritime Policing Unit - The Kutulo could most easily be subsumed into the Carabinieri, since they already have a boat section for policing Lake Turkana. (3-Month Investment.)
These are all issues we can fix, even if foreign perspectives are also valuable - let's start on the basics before the improvements.
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- Location
- an unseen void
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[X] Plan: Learn Things