Towards the Future

Red Rationalist · Oct 17, 2022

Simon_Jester said:
You're absolutely right. What do you suggest?

I'm in the middle of writing out my recommendations. That takes some time, but to give my recommendation for leashing the CSS right now: Take "Overhaul the legal code". This writes a constitution, and thus limits on the powers of the CSS.

Simon_Jester said:
Remember that this is Galchobar talking, so his perceptions of how long before things blow up may prove... inaccurate.

I do think we need to choose our Military action with this issue in mind. And perhaps what little control we have over the CSS should be pointed in this direction somehow if possible.

You are wrong here, it's the report from our military commander, Morcant Singleir. He is capable, so I see no reason to doubt his judgement.

Simon_Jester said:
So I would continue to beat the drum that we need to worry less about "rebels" and more about shaping our institutions as best we can. This is why I advocated the Road of Life action, even knowing that it probably saves fewer people than some of the alternatives. Road of Life ensures that the populace of a region that would otherwise think we had totally abandoned them to the cold, such that the few survivors would likely hate us, will instead remember us as trying to help.

We are on the same page here. On closer reading, you are right that road of life is more symbolic than anything else. Still, having organized a winter logistics once, we are better able to do it in the future, when it has a larger impact.

Simon_Jester said:
With that said, we also need to make sure we don't create inefficient industrial enterprises, because more inefficiency translates directly into more death and lower capacity at times like this. We cannot afford for the Ministry of Industry to handle things badly when this means that we have less for everyone, when nearly everything we are manufacturing right now is directly or indirectly a necessity of basic survival.

If you are saying the industry is actually inefficient, I would disagree. I don't think the minister of finance is noting actual inefficiency, but rather misidentifying the problem. To take the exact quote:

Blackstar said:
The current industrial state is poor, MoInd has practically made an industrial structure arranged along a pyramid that at its best is a breeding ground for nepotism.

A pyramid isn't a refined organizational structure, but it does one thing really well. It's the optimal structure for controlling a lot of things with limited bureaucratic personal. Each person can control multiple people below them, whereas sophisticated organizations require much more manpower on the higher levels. There is reason feudalist systems resembled a pyramid, and that reason was the limited availability of literate bureaucrats vs. the large land that needed to be controlled. I consider the pyramid structure to be a good survival adaptation, given our lack of personal. There is also the fact that our minister of industry is capable administrator focused on fast solution, while our minister of finance has no experience outside of banking.

With that being said, I also support the subsidization of small workshops. Good idea, and the best choice for creating a wide variety of spare parts without consuming a lot if machinery.

Simon_Jester said:
It occurs to me that if Dumh can solve the problem of bioweapons actively designed to be hard to cure, Dumh can probably also solve the problem of merely "normal" diseases that spread due to crowded conditions, or at least do a lot to mitigate them. If she can release tailored bacterial agents that vaccinate the population against ultra-Ebola or whatever, she can release similar agents that vaccinate the population against Elf Typhoid or Elf Cholera.

I'm less optimistic about using tailored bacterial agents against more common diseases. The threshold for effective treatment is a lot higher, since they are lot less lethal than bioweapons. However, the production of medical compounds plus a clinic system should take care of the worst. The situation is already on it's way of being solved.

Simon_Jester · Oct 17, 2022

Red Rationalist said:
You are wrong here, it's the report from our military commander, Morcant Singleir. He is capable, so I see no reason to doubt his judgement.

Hrrm. My impression is that Galchobar's opinions still color the reports we get from ministers. I'm thinking back to some of the language used to discuss Orbital options. Do you remember what I mean? I might be imagining it.

If you are saying the industry is actually inefficient, I would disagree. I don't think the minister of finance is noting actual inefficiency, but rather misidentifying the problem. To take the exact quote:

A pyramid isn't a refined organizational structure, but it does one thing really well. It's the optimal structure for controlling a lot of things with limited bureaucratic personal. Each person can control multiple people below them, whereas sophisticated organizations require much more manpower on the higher levels. There is reason feudalist systems resembled a pyramid, and that reason was the limited availability of literate bureaucrats vs. the large land that needed to be controlled. I consider the pyramid structure to be a good survival adaptation, given our lack of personal. There is also the fact that our minister of industry is capable administrator focused on fast solution, while our minister of finance has no experience outside of banking.

That's fair.

At the same time, this isn't the only clue that we may be having some inefficiency problems. Reading between the lines of a lot of other stuff, the Ministry of Industry is struggling to be efficient, and sometimes may be shuffling machinery around or otherwise taking counterproductive actions. Or that's my impression.

With that said, my proposed solution to notional industrial inefficiencies is something you're happy with, so we can probably agree to disagree for now on the exact details. Because my proposed solution is to provide more decentralized production and decision-making capacity, per some of the stuff we've already said about small workshops and all.

Red Rationalist · Oct 17, 2022

Simon_Jester said:
Hrrm. My impression is that Galchobar's opinions still color the reports we get from ministers. I'm thinking back to some of the language used to discuss Orbital options. Do you remember what I mean? I might be imagining it.

I'm pretty sure our ministerial situation assessments are colored by the biases of the minister, since they are the ones speaking. I'm not sure what you are referring to, but perhaps it was a line outside of the ministerial actions, i.e. Golchabhor saying something about orbital in the paragraph at the start.

Simon_Jester said:
With that said, my proposed solution to notional industrial inefficiencies is something you're happy with, so we can probably agree to disagree for now on the exact details. Because my proposed solution is to provide more decentralized production and decision-making capacity, per some of the stuff we've already said about small workshops and all.

Amusingly enough a nearly identical action crops up in the form of "Private-Public Coordination System". So it seems the Minister of Industry considers this to be the right move, he just has a lot of other spinning plates.

Simon_Jester · Oct 17, 2022

Red Rationalist said:
I'm pretty sure our ministerial situation assessments are colored by the biases of the minister, since they are the ones speaking. I'm not sure what you are referring to, but perhaps it was a line outside of the ministerial actions, i.e. Golchabhor saying something about orbital in the paragraph at the start.

Maybe.

Amusingly enough a nearly identical action crops up in the form of "Private-Public Coordination System". So it seems the Minister of Industry considers this to be the right move, he just has a lot of other spinning plates.

Well then. Maybe we can get another 'opposites attract' thing going by having the Minister of Industry and the Minister of Finance work on the same project at the same time from opposite directions!

Red Rationalist · Oct 17, 2022

Our list of issues:
- Decreasing food supply, leading to eventual starvation
- Lack of transport, leading to localized famines
- Lack of decent shelter, leading to increased disease
- our entirely insufficient government structure, which we must unfuck to do anything
--> pervasive influence of the CSS and military, latent risk of coups

I will list the options I consider to be best for tackling these issues, while also mentioning the actions I consider to counterproductive overall.

Governmental Actions
Good:
- []Recruitment of Additional Personnel: Pretty important, given our gaps in the bureaucracy. Not only does this improve the minimum impact of any action, it also increases the best possible outcome for us.
- [][][]Overhaul the Legal Code: Writes a new legal system that corresponds to the situation on the ground. Also noteworthy for writing a constitution, which is useful for reigning in military units and the CSS, since it gives the democratic authorities a thing they can point at when claiming "Stop, that's illegal". Right now our legal and political system is based on what people sort of remember of the law, which isn't great. Especially helpfull with reigning in the CSS.
.- [][][]Unification of Planetary Governance: Reduces our reliance on the military for managing the bureaucracy, will unlock options to improve bureaucracy overall and enshrines civilian control over the military (discrete command system). Good option, but the military isn't the biggest threat to our fledgeling democracy right now.
Bad:
- Stabilization of democratic excesses: Certain councils are controlled by opposition and don't ask "How high?" when ordered to jump. This is a good thing Golchabhor, this is how democracy actually works.

Committee of State Security ( choose 1/3 actions):
Good (least bad actions):
- [] Enhanced Criminal Searches: Sounds bad, but constructs an actual prisons. It also allows us effectively lower punishments, since we have options outside of penal labor and shooting criminals.
-[/] [/] Co-Opting of Worker Movements: Sounds bad, but introduces state-integrated unions and a complaint system. Far better than having local unions start striking and having Golchabhor decide to arrest them all.
- [][]Justice System Overhauls: This seems to create a global sets of judicial guidelines, rather than letting courts arrive at a new legal code by arguing over precedent. In short, we would create a global, universally applied legal code rather than a regionalized patchwork of different legal interpretations. Which is an all right goal. Should be taken after "Overhaul the Legal Code" is finished and we have enshrined basic constructional rights.
Bad: Everything else

Orbital Command (choose 1/2 actions):
Good:
- []Start Terrestrial Habitation of Dannan-2: Gets people off the failing central habitat, and into habitats with lower parts useage.
- [/][]Industrialization of Dannan-2: Increases spare part production, while lowering the personal in the steadily deteriorating habitat.
- []Authorize Exploration of Lower Orbit: Allows us to get some rare parts, thus prolonging the maintenance life of the cylinder.
- []First Transport Flights: Ensures basic resupplies, mostly of fissile materials and other consumables.
Ok: Everything else

Military Command (Choose 1/2 actions):
Good:
- []Start Rationalization of Military Foodstocks: Allows us to stretch our high-quality rations out. While it has a chance of moderately lowering morale, a moderate hit to morale can be made up later.
- [/]Strengthen Supply Stocks: Confiscates high-quality rations from the civilians. Not ideal, but it does give us more time.
- []Expand Appropriations: Confiscates various consumer goods from the population and persecutes the remaining oligarchs.
Bad:
- [] Restart Conscription: This worsens the lack of workers we already have. There is no reason to reason to go back on the policy we have implemented. This could work as a basic social safety net for the unemployed, but that is not a problem we have right now.

Ministry of Infrastructure (Choose 2/3 actions):
Good:
- [/]Winter Hot Bunking: Improves the usage of shelter and thus reduces winter casualties.
- [] Tractor Confiscation + [] Road of Life: Transports food to the northern regions and makes tractors into transport vehicles. The actual amount transported will be low, but it will considerably increase morale. Also, I think trying to organize logistical lines during the winter gives us experience, and will make future attempts better, especially when we can restart vehicle manufacturing.
- []Mass Transit(Bus): This increases work efficiency and lowers casualties due to frostbite. It's mostly effective in urban region, where shelter is mostly sufficient. So I would prioritize the above combination.
-[]Continued Port Reclamation: Clears more of the large harbors. While definitively necessary in the long run, I doubt it's a good idea during the winter. Even if the sea isn't freezing in the tropical regions, we would still loose a lot of people to hypothermia. An absolute must once the winter is over.
- [][]Housing Restoration Projects: Increases the available shelter, especially in rural areas. While this is obviously a good project, I don't think starting one during the worst winter we will have is a good idea. Probably a must-pick for the next summer.

Ministry of Development (Choose 1/2 actions):
Good:
- []Container-Adaptation Measures: Improves the availability of shelter. Helps with an acute problem and can be rolled out this month.
- []Universalization of the Clinic Program: Yes, yes, yes! This substantially helps prevent the spread of diseases and reduces our casulties. Additionally, doctors can also help slightly by prioritizing identifiying the people most affected by malnutrition, improving the effectiveness of our rationing scheme. This should be rolled out next turn.
- [/][]Decentralized Fungiculture: Improves nutritional quality and allows for the production of better food (meat replacements instead of starch). Good idea, it just won't be implemented for a while.
Bad:
- []Private 3D Printing: This gives 3d printers to local councils interested in consumer good production. This would activly hinder our efforts to produce machine parts in workshops and thus worsen the parts crisis. If we already undertook "Subsidize Necessary Production" and printers are left over, then it would be worth considering. As it stands, a very bad idea that likely squander resources.

Ministry of Agriculture (Choose 3/5):
Good:
- [/][][][]Starch Construction: Increases food production to sustainable levels. Obviously important.
- [] Restore the Laboratory System: Greatly helps our agricultural bureaucracy. While it doesn't help with any immediate problem, it probably grants substantial mechanical benefits.
- [] Biosphere Salvaging Initiatives: Helps with future restoration of the biosphere. While it is painfully to push it off a while, ensuring the MinAgri has sufficient personal takes priority. We can almost certainly do it next turn.
- [] Chemicalization of Production: Improves nutritional quality and makes the food more edible. Good to have, but raw food production takes priority.
- [/]Establish Industrial Scale Medication Synthesis: Basic medicine production. Certainly nice to have.
Bad:
- Re-Organize Farmers: This project helps with yields during the winter (creating truffle fields that can withstand the winter), but I don't think we can start planting those during winter. It also disrupts conventional agriculture, thus worsening food production overall. Maybe during the next winter, but certainly not now.

Ministry of Industry (Choose 2/3):
-[][]Heavy Industrial Resumptions: Restarts machine building industries, which are pretty vital for maintaining our industry. This also likely allows unlocks the production of trucks going forward, greatly easing the logistical situation. Definitivly a good idea.
- []Formal Parts Rationing: We are running out of good parts and that is bad. Starting rationing is a good idea, but this is only effective once we are producing substitutes. Still, it could shut down some especially demanding industrial sectors, helping to stretch the supply a bit.
- []Shipbuilding Industry Revival: This is would allow us to improve our industrial network, but not help with our oversea logistics. Still, producing naval vessels rather than barges is probably locked behind this action. Good to do over the next turn.
- [/][]Grid Construction: Supplants power from renewable and nuclear powerplants. Definitively a good idea, but doesn't need to be completed this turn. Much of our power is derived from nuclear ship reactors, which will power the coastal cities for years to come.
Bad:
- []Petrochemical Intensification: Sacrifices long term fuel production for short term gain. Our production of heating oil and fuel is generally sufficient, making this a bad trade.
- []Private-Public Coordination Systems: Can be done from the MinFinance, waste of an action in a critical ministry.

Ministry of Finance:
Good:
- []Subsidize Necessary Production: Supports the creating of flexible, small machining workshops. This allows to fulfill the demand for specific parts until they can be produced on a larger scale. A pretty good policy!
- []Resume Service Sector Employment: Increases quality of life slightly, while also allowing soldiers something to spend their money on. It also creates the foundation for a primary education system, which is really nice. Slight draw on manpower, but I think it's a drop in the bucket.
Bad:
- []Suppress Integrated State-Trusts: Actively fucks up the current organization of industry, while we are trying to make the capital good useage sustainable. This is also a pretty obvious power play, and will lead to petty infighting between MinInd and MinFinance. Please don't do that.

So overall, I'm going to present my plan draft based on the preferences I outlined above:
[] Plan Shelter, Machines, Food and a Constitution
Government (3/3):
- [/][/][ ] Overhaul the Legal Code
- [/] Recruitment of Additional Personal
CSS (3/3):
- [/][/]Co-Opting of Worker Movements
- [/]Enhanced Criminal Searches
Orbital Command (2/2):
- [/][ ]Industrialization of Dannan-2
- [/]Start Terrestrial Habitation of Dannan-2
Military Command (2/2):
- [/] Strengthen Supply Stocks
- [/] Start Rationalization of Military Foodstocks
MinInfra (3/3)
- [/]Winter Hot Bunking
- [/] Tractor Confiscation
- [/] Road of Life
MinDev (2/2)
- [/] Container-Adaptation Measures
- [/][ ]Decentralized Fungiculture
MinAgri (5/5)
- [/][/][/][ ]Starch Construction
- [/]Establish Industrial Scale Medication Synthesis
- [/]Restore the Laboratory System
MinInd (3/3)
- [/][]Grid Construction
- [/][/]Heavy Industrial Resumptions
MinFin (2/2)
- [/]Establish Limited Interconvertibility
-[/]Subsidize Necessary Production

Simon_Jester · Oct 17, 2022

Red Rationalist said:
Governmental Actions
Good:
- []Recruitment of Additional Personnel: Pretty important, given our gaps in the bureaucracy. Not only does this improve the minimum impact of any action, it also increases the best possible outcome for us.
- [][][]Overhaul the Legal Code: Writes a new legal system that corresponds to the situation on the ground. Also noteworthy for writing a constitution, which is useful for reigning in military units and the CSS, since it gives the democratic authorities a thing they can point at when claiming "Stop, that's illegal". Right now our legal and political system is based on what people sort of remember of the law, which isn't great. Especially helpfull with reigning in the CSS.
.- [][][]Unification of Planetary Governance: Reduces our reliance on the military for managing the bureaucracy, will unlock options to improve bureaucracy overall and enshrines civilian control over the military (discrete command system). Good option, but the military isn't the biggest threat to our fledgeling democracy right now.

Hmm, good point. The CSS is on steroids right now, the military, while relevant and a concern, is probably less directly relevant. So overhauling the legal code winds up mattering more.

Committee of State Security ( choose 1/3 actions):
Good (least bad actions):
- [] Enhanced Criminal Searches: Sounds bad, but constructs an actual prisons. It also allows us effectively lower punishments, since we have options outside of penal labor and shooting criminals.

Also, if CSS goons are busy running around all over the world chasing after escaped convicts (quite a few of whom may be people we actually don't want loose, in any case!)... Well, those same CSS goons are not busy doing something (even) more antisocial at the same time.

- [][]Justice System Overhauls: This seems to create a global sets of judicial guidelines, rather than letting courts arrive at a new legal code by arguing over precedent. In short, we would create a global, universally applied legal code rather than a regionalized patchwork of different legal interpretations. Which is an all right goal. Should be taken after "Overhaul the Legal Code" is finished and we have enshrined basic constructional rights.

Good point about the sequencing here.

Military Command (Choose 1/2 actions):
Good:
- []Start Rationalization of Military Foodstocks: Allows us to stretch our high-quality rations out. While it has a chance of moderately lowering morale, a moderate hit to morale can be made up later.
- [X]Strengthen Supply Stocks: Confiscates high-quality rations from the civilians. Not ideal, but it does give us more time.
- []Expand Appropriations: Confiscates various consumer goods from the population and persecutes the remaining oligarchs.
Bad:
- [] Restart Conscription: This worsens the lack of workers we already have. There is no reason to reason to go back on the policy we have implemented. This could work as a basic social safety net for the unemployed, but that is not a problem we have right now.

Hm, I see what you mean. I was thinking more in terms of getting some rotation involved between the military and civilian populations, so that we're less likely to have a military whose rank and file see themselves as a discrete population of "sheepdogs" separate from the civilian "sheep."

Ministry of Infrastructure (Choose 2/3 actions):
Good:
- [X]Winter Hot Bunking: Improves the usage of shelter and thus reduces winter casualties.
- [] Tractor Confiscation + [] Road of Life: Transports food to the northern regions and makes tractors into transport vehicles. The actual amount transported will be low, but it will considerably increase morale. Also, I think trying to organize logistical lines during the winter gives us experience, and will make future attempts better, especially when we can restart vehicle manufacturing.
- []Mass Transit(Bus): This increases work efficiency and lowers casualties due to frostbite. It's mostly effective in urban region, where shelter is mostly sufficient. So I would prioritize the above combination.
-[]Continued Port Reclamation: Clears more of the large harbors. While definitively necessary in the long run, I doubt it's a good idea during the winter. Even if the sea isn't freezing in the tropical regions, we would still loose a lot of people to hypothermia. An absolute must once the winter is over.
- [][]Housing Restoration Projects: Increases the available shelter, especially in rural areas. While this is obviously a good project, I don't think starting one during the worst winter we will have is a good idea. Probably a must-pick for the next summer.

Good point about winter making it a bad time to try some projects, though note that a lot of the problems we have are in tropical regions, where by definition there isn't much winter or summer as such...

Bad:
- []Private 3D Printing: This gives 3d printers to local councils interested in consumer good production. This would activly hinder our efforts to produce machine parts in workshops and thus worsen the parts crisis. If we already undertook "Subsidize Necessary Production" and printers are left over, then it would be worth considering. As it stands, a very bad idea that likely squander resources.

Ahhh. I see what you mean. Subtle.

- []Private-Public Coordination Systems: Can be done from the MinFinance, waste of an action in a critical ministry.

You sure? This might be the kind of action where doing it from both ends creates a synergy effect.

Red Rationalist · Oct 17, 2022

Simon_Jester said:
Hm, I see what you mean. I was thinking more in terms of getting some rotation involved between the military and civilian populations, so that we're less likely to have a military whose rank and file see themselves as a discrete population of "sheepdogs" separate from the civilian "sheep."

To be entirely honest, I haven't found the time to read your second reaction post. Typing out my response to the update and formatting it for readibility took a while.

Simon_Jester said:
Good point about winter making it a bad time to try some projects, though note that a lot of the problems we have are in tropical regions, where by definition there isn't much winter or summer as such...

I was talking about the nuclear winter specifically. I'm not a meteorologist, but I'm fairly certain the tropics will get colder if most of the oceans freeze over.

Simon_Jester said:
You sure? This might be the kind of action where doing it from both ends creates a synergy effect.

I'm fairly sure about it. What we would be doing is ordering two ministries to do the same thing. I think this just results in a lot of wasted time and fighting over who is actually in charge.

dbRevned · Oct 17, 2022

Red Rationalist said:
I was talking about the nuclear winter specifically. I'm not a meteorologist, but I'm fairly certain the tropics will get colder if most of the oceans freeze over.

I could see for the housing atleast 1 action not causing trouble depending on how we actuallly alocate personal. If its a you do this syring the first parts of the turn, then when its super dangerous to build more housing we'll ship you off to do stuff inside. Or they'll just work all through the turn with only 1 actions worth of people/resources. If its the first im for housing, if its the second i agree with you.

Red Rationalist · Oct 17, 2022

dbRevned said:
I could see for the housing atleast 1 action not causing trouble depending on how we actuallly alocate personal. If its a you do this syring the first parts of the turn, then when its super dangerous to build more housing we'll ship you off to do stuff inside. Or they'll just work all through the turn with only 1 actions worth of people/resources. If its the first im for housing, if its the second i agree with you.

I think unfortunately we work on the latter principle, actions are generally done simultaneously and throughout the year. The winter has already started and the action is about mass construction of new housing. Also, as Simon has put it, Golchabhor previously took the "Digg a canal with your dying breath" approach, so I don't think we can start construction during a safe period. Starting the action now might kill more people than it saves.

Adronio · Oct 17, 2022

I think there are very good merits for re-introducing conscription at a later date, albeit not right now when it would mainly be robbing peter to pay paul. The military is gonna have a huge societal effect on us pretty much no matter what, and its important we twist that into a benefit instead of a poison that'll tear our nation apart. Citizen soldiers would, imo, be a significantly healthier social phenomenon then a seperate and entitled soldiering class growing out from an oversized and overprioritized 'professional' organization.

Thats for the future though, right now making sure the military's stock of non-starch foodstuff lasts longer is way more important. That being said, I feel like the 'good times' in the military tab is now gonna be over as we see them lose more and more of their inhibitions as they get time to breathe and think, and we have limited means to appease them properly.

Vi'Talzin · Oct 17, 2022

Simon_Jester said:
Overspecialized

We are in an arquipelago planet, its really not, waterways were and always will be the main means of bulk transport, we really shouldn't dismiss this option so readily.

Red Rationalist said:
With that being said, I also support the subsidization of small workshops. Good idea, and the best choice for creating a wide variety of spare parts without consuming a lot if machinery.

Blackstar has noted several times our industry is running on p much zero spare parts. Our MinInd is being neglectful of it, so taking that action as soon as we can should be a priority yeah.

Red Rationalist said:
Bad:
- []Petrochemical Intensification: Sacrifices long term fuel production for short term gain. Our production of heating oil and fuel is generally sufficient, making this a bad trade.

I disagree with this being a bad option, in a vacuum, yes, we production is sufficient, but don't forget that MinInd is starting up oil firing power plants, which he notes will require an increase of production.

[][]Grid Construction: Development programs for a number of new petrochemical power plants are a logical development from the resumption of mining. Current renewable and nuclear plants are too irreplaceable to be maintained for a long period and new production is unlikely to reach sufficient levels in time. To supplant the gap of industrial power use, massive quantities of petrochemicals can be burned to make up the difference. Increased intensity hydrofracking will be necessary to keep up yields on poorer wells, but as this is inherently temporary, the damage should be acceptable.

I suspect that if we don't take this, fuel shortages will come very quickly. A bit of loss of extractive efficiency later on is not too bad, we picked a planet with plenty of oil, and this would be done on poorer wells according to the action. We will be fine, this should more than pay off in the long run.

Dwergar · Oct 17, 2022

When and/or if we would get the option in military to release existent fissile material to supply the needs of energy infrastructure?

Simon_Jester · Oct 17, 2022

Dwergar said:
When and/or if we would get the option in military to release existent fissile material to supply the needs of energy infrastructure?

1) Facilities for reprocessing uranium or making uranium into fuel pellets of any kind would have been prime targets during the nuclear war. Kaboom.
2) Expertise for doing so, likewise. Kaboom.
3) While the military definitely has some nuclear warheads left that could be reprocessed, and some nuclear powered ships not outright dismantled, there aren't many warheads left anyway, and I think we already took an action to have the remaining nuclear warships anchor in port cities to act as power ships to contribute to the electrical grid.

I'm not sure it'd help much.

Red Rationalist · Oct 18, 2022

Mr. Sandman said:
I disagree with this being a bad option, in a vacuum, yes, we production is sufficient, but don't forget that MinInd is starting up oil firing power plants, which he notes will require an increase of production.

[][]Grid Construction: Development programs for a number of new petrochemical power plants are a logical development from the resumption of mining. Current renewable and nuclear plants are too irreplaceable to be maintained for a long period and new production is unlikely to reach sufficient levels in time. To supplant the gap of industrial power use, massive quantities of petrochemicals can be burned to make up the difference. Increased intensity hydrofracking will be necessary to keep up yields on poorer wells, but as this is inherently temporary, the damage should be acceptable.

I suspect that if we don't take this, fuel shortages will come very quickly. A bit of loss of extractive efficiency later on is not too bad, we picked a planet with plenty of oil, and this would be done on poorer wells according to the action. We will be fine, this should more than pay off in the long run.

Keep in mind that grid construction is a long-term thing. We don't have to replace every existing power plant in the future, but we are building petro-electrical power plants for when they eventually start malfunctioning. It doesn't make sense to start hydro-flooding to a non-sensical extent before we have even built the plants consuming it. And we are not running out of fuel right now.
Also, we get a different recommendation from the MinInd:

Blackstar said:
Expansions of secondary production will further serve to prepare the state to replace the currently irreplaceable machinery operating in the petrochemical industry. The highest priority for the sector itself is the production of more machine tools and enabling it to occur.

Once we are producing rudimentary parts for oil extraction, we can undertake an expansion of the oil refining sector. Hydro-flooding would lower oil yields for the sake of a short-term abundance of oil, which we can't use. It would also delay the large-scale production of capital goods and spare parts, which delays sustainable expansions of resource extraction sectors.

Mr. Sandman said:
Blackstar has noted several times our industry is running on p much zero spare parts. Our MinInd is being neglectful of it, so taking that action as soon as we can should be a priority yeah.

I don't think this is an accurate assessment. Keep in mind before now, we had to restart the power grid, resume coal extraction, restart oil extraction, get the production chain working again, scavenge and preserve the most important technical parts and so on. There was no time for it. The option to restart capital good industries, "Heavy Industrial Resumption" literally produces spare parts, with the situation assessment indicating that producing machine tolls is the highest priority.

Vi'Talzin · Oct 18, 2022

Red Rationalist said:
Keep in mind that grid construction is a long-term thing. We don't have to replace every existing power plant in the future, but we are building petro-electrical power plants for when they eventually start malfunctioning. It doesn't make sense to start hydro-flooding to a non-sensical extent before we have even built the plants consuming i

We are not replacing plants, we are building new ones. Our power production is just insufficient, it says so in the action "To supplant the gap of industrial power use". He is just noting that the fact we cannot supply parts for the current nuclear plants so they will just stop working with time, its why building new capacity is such a priority he picked it as a locked action. He also says in the option we need to do fracking in response to the action.he is picking.

Red Rationalist said:
I don't think this is an accurate assessment. Keep in mind before now, we had to restart the power grid, resume coal extraction, restart oil extraction, get the production chain working again, scavenge and preserve the most important technical parts and so on. There was no time for it. The option to restart capital good industries, "Heavy Industrial Resumption" literally produces spare parts, with the situation assessment indicating that producing machine tolls is the highest priority.

Heavy industrial production is building up new capacity, tools to build more tools, not necessarily spare parts. And we can't forget our MinInd is a guy used to "fast solutions", as in, cutting corners. Which is fine in our situation, but entails blind spots we must be aware of. In this case, running industry on zero spare parts. This is not noted IC by him, because the updates are written to account for his biases, but this has been noted several times on the Discord where we discuss this kind of stuff. Anyway, MinFin has an option to cover for that blindspot, which you yourself put on a plan, so whether I am right or not the issue will be adressed.

Red Rationalist · Oct 18, 2022

Mr. Sandman said:
Heavy industrial production is building up new capacity, tools to build more tools, not necessarily spare parts. And we can't forget our MinInd is a guy used to "fast solutions", as in, cutting corners. Which is fine in our situation, but entails blind spots we must be aware of. In this case, running industry on zero spare parts. This is not noted IC by him, because the updates are written to account for his biases, but this has been noted several times on the Discord where we discuss this kind of stuff. Anyway, MinFin has an option to cover for that blindspot, which you yourself put on a plan, so whether I am right or not the issue will be adressed.

It's machining industry, industry that produces capital goods. If you produce a machine for industrial production, you necessarily produce parts of that machine, meaning you produce spare parts. Heavy Industrial Resumption is about restarting large-scale capital good production, which will be responsible for sizable portion of spare parts we get.

Mr. Sandman said:
We are not replacing plants, we are building new ones. Our power production is just insufficient, it says so in the action "To supplant the gap of industrial power use". He is just noting that the fact we cannot supply parts for the current nuclear plants so they will just stop working with time, its why building new capacity is such a priority he picked it as a locked action. He also says in the option we need to do fracking in response to the action.he is picking.

We are building new powerplants to replace the power output from existing ones. The previous sentence indicates gives critical context:

Blackstar said:
Development programs for a number of new petrochemical power plants are a logical development from the resumption of mining. Current renewable and nuclear plants are too irreplaceable to be maintained for a long period and new production is unlikely to reach sufficient levels in time. To supplant the gap of industrial power use, massive quantities of petrochemicals can be burned to make up the difference.

The gap is not a gap between existing power output and needed power output, it's between the production of parts for existing power plants and the maintenance life of those plants. We can't maintain those powerplants in the long run, so we need to build oil burning power plants, for which we need parts. I think you are misidentifying the problem.
And I maintain, it doesn't make sense to start fracking to near nonsensical point before we have built plants that could burn it.

Vi'Talzin · Oct 18, 2022

Red Rationalist said:
It's machining industry, industry that produces capital goods. If you produce a machine for industrial production, you necessarily produce parts of that machine, meaning you produce spare parts. Heavy Industrial Resumption is about restarting large-scale capital good production, which will be responsible for sizable portion of spare parts we get.

Look, I already said why I think you are wrong, you are missing important context about our MinInds blindspots. Its pointless to argue about this because you yourself want to do the option that adresses it.

Red Rationalist said:
We are building new powerplants to replace the power output from existing ones. The previous sentence indicates gives critical context:

No, we are building new power plants because our power production was completely shot and are currently running whatever dregs were left to failure. You are underestimating the degree of damage the exchange caused to our power grid.

Red Rationalist said:
And I maintain, it doesn't make sense to start fracking to near nonsensical point before we have built plants that could burn it

If it were nonsensical it wouldn't be stated as a necessity in the action for it, or the one for the power plants. Nonsensical would be to build a bunch of oil firing plants without increasing oil production accordingly, if we don't take that action we will have to compromise running our industry, feeding our logistics or keeping our people warm. I don't think its wise to put ourselves in that situation.

Red Rationalist · Oct 18, 2022

Mr. Sandman said:
Look, I already said why I think you are wrong, you are missing important context about our MinInds blindspots. Its pointless to argue about this because you yourself want to do the option that adresses it.

I'm genuinely curious what blind spots you think there are. First off, he is an capable administrator with broad experience in across industries. He is noting the lack of spare parts and strongly suggesting we do something about it.

Blackstar said:
The highest priority for the sector itself is the production of more machine tools and enabling it to occur. Once cheaper and worse quality replacements are available in numbers, a more conventional industrialization effort can be undertaken.

Since I don't know what priorities you have in industry and you advocated for taking hydro-chemical intensification as a important, I'm assuming you want us to take it this term. Since I view "Heavy-Industrial Resumption" as a critical action that competes with hydro-chemical intensification, I will continue bringing up this point. As nice as workshops are, they are not a silver bullet against the parts crisis. Workshops are very flexible, but they aren't good at producing large numbers of parts.

Mr. Sandman said:
No, we are building new power plants because our power production was completely shot and are currently running whatever dregs were left to failure. You are underestimating the degree of damage the exchange caused to our power grid.

Our current industry orients itself around what power supply we have, exchanging manual labor for previously mechanized and energy consuming processes. And our current power supply will be stay consistent for a while, until existing plants stop failing. Therefore we don't need more energy now, but make our energy production sustainable for our current civilization. If your view that we lacked electricity and urgently needed to increase power output was correct, don't you think we would hear something about "a lack of power for our industry" or a "electricity deficit for increasing industrial production"? What is noted is that current power plants are to irreplacable to be maintained and that we need new production. The context makes it clear we are not talking about parts production, not electricty production.

Mr. Sandman said:
If it were nonsensical it wouldn't be stated as a necessity in the action for it, or the one for the power plants. Nonsensical would be to build a bunch of oil firing plants without increasing oil production accordingly, if we don't take that action we will have to compromise running our industry, feeding our logistics or keeping our people warm. I don't think its wise to put ourselves in that situation.

What makes you think petrochemical intensification is the only way to increase oil extraction we will have? Or we won't get further options to increase oil extractions, once we are building machines via heavy industry resumptions? You can build the oil plants and start petro-chemical intensification next turn, if it was truly needed.
If we do this action now, most of the fuel would go into civilian use, as heating oil. The oil building plants, even if very much rushed, won't be finished until the end of the turn. The action isn't here as a response to an emerging lack of oil, it's left over from previous turns. It's an emergency button that gives us more oil now, at the cost of later oil production.

Vi'Talzin · Oct 18, 2022

[X] Winter has Come
-[X] Government (3/3):
--[X] Recruitment of Additional Personal
--[X][X]Unification of Planetary Governance
-[X] CSS (3/3):
--[X][X] Co-Opting of Worker Movements
--[X] Justice System Overhauls
-[X] Orbital Command (2/2):
--[X] Industrialization of Dannan-2
--[X] Authorize Exploration of Lower Orbit
-[X] Military Command (2/2):
--[X] Strengthen Supply Stocks
--[X] Expand Appropriations
-[X] MinInfra (3/3)
--[X] Winter Hot Bunking
--[X] Tractor Confiscation
--[X] Road of Life
-[X] MinDev (2/2)
--[X] Decentralized Fungiculture
--[X] Community Outreach Programs
-[X] MinAgri (5/5)
--[X][X] Starch Construction
--[X] Establish Industrial Scale Medication Synthesis
--[X]Biosphere Salvaging Initiatives
--[X]Restore the Laboratory System
-[X] MinInd (3/3)
--[X] Grid Construction
--[X] Heavy Industrial Resumptions
--[X] Petrochemical Intensification
-[X] MinFin (2/2)
--[X] Establish Limited Interconvertibility
--[X] Subsidize Necessary Production

I think I have found a plan I am happy with, Unification of Planetary Governance is said to allow localized efforts, which are very valuable when our bureaucracy is so withered. This should synergize with Community Outreach Programs which will give them the resources to proceed with those efforts. I picked Justice System Overhauls because even though it essentially is forming Kangoroo courts, its better than the current system of military kangoroo courts, and will shift the onus on staffing the Justice System onto the CSS, which will relieve a burden to the military.

Orbital Command was a tough call, we kinda need to do everything on that list. Authorize Exploration of Lower Orbit, is taking on some risk for invaluable rewards, and is very time sensitive due to Kesslere'd orbitals, we already heard of one of the cylinders that were candidates for retrieval were junked, so if we ever want to do it, the time is now. As things are, I think it is worth the risk.

I also struggled on the decision to pick Expand Appropriations. Its shitty to our civilian population, but Singleir has warned us we need ways to keep the rank and file happy. The Army is the main pillar of state stability, the civilians are not, so we will have to make the latter make some sacrifices so we don't face ourselves with a military coup, which we have very little ability to counter (whilst civilian uprisings, on the other hand, we can).

Tractor Confiscations are a must, we are bleeding logistically. Road of Life is not, but it will garner us good will with the periphery, and let that periphery survive in the first place.

Heavy Industrial Resumptions is something our minister is all but begging we do in the blurb, and Petrochemical Intensification is needed to supply the grid our MinInd is going to build this turn. If we don't do it, we will have to cut heating supplies to the civilians to supply our industries, which I would rather we don't since its winter.

Subsidize Necessary Production will cover for our deficiencies in spare parts.

Anyway, feedback is valued, if you think there are any critical actions being overlooked please tell me.

Vi'Talzin · Oct 18, 2022

Red Rationalist said:
I'm genuinely curious what blind spots you think there are. First off, he is an capable administrator with broad experience in across industries. He is noting the lack of spare parts and strongly suggesting we do something about it.

He is the dude who you call upon to keep production going at any cost, an industrial fixer. The job he does is quick and dirty and he goes for fast solutions, its been noted several times this means cutting corners. What corners do you think he is cutting?

Red Rationalist said:
Since I don't know what priorities you have in industry and you advocated for taking hydro-chemical intensification as a important, I'm assuming you want us to take it this term. Since I view "Heavy-Industrial Resumption" as a critical action that competes with hydro-chemical intensification, I will continue bringing up this point.

I agree it is a critical action, which is why I am taking it in my plan. But Heavy-Industrial Resumption is not us building spare parts factories, it is building up our heavy industry generally, which is very close to non-existent.

Red Rationalist said:
If your view that we lacked electricity and urgently needed to increase power output was correct, don't you think we would hear something about "a lack of power for our industry" or a "electricity deficit for increasing industrial production"?

Why do you think he took the grid as his first priority? He could care less about the civilians, they already have enough power to run the lights, you need electricity to run modern industrial processes.

Red Rationalist said:
What makes you think petrochemical intensification is the only way to increase oil extraction we will have? Or we won't get further options to increase oil extractions, once we are building machines via heavy industry resumptions? You can build the oil plants and start petro-chemical intensification next turn, if it was truly needed.

It is literally the only option we have now, it is needed, the dude literally says so in the action he picked.

Grid Construction: Development programs for a number of new petrochemical power plants are a logical development from the resumption of mining. Current renewable and nuclear plants are too irreplaceable to be maintained for a long period and new production is unlikely to reach sufficient levels in time. To supplant the gap of industrial power use, massive quantities of petrochemicals can be burned to make up the difference. Increased intensity hydrofracking will be necessary to keep up yields on poorer wells, but as this is inherently temporary, the damage should be acceptable.

Red Rationalist · Oct 18, 2022

Mr. Sandman said:
He is the dude who you call upon to keep production going at any cost, an industrial fixer. The job he does is quick and dirty and he goes for fast solutions, its been noted several times this means cutting corners. What corners do you think he is cutting?

Ok, why would a industrial fixer not note a lack of power? And if he did, why would he not present quick and easy fixes to increase power output directly? You misidentifying a problem that doesn't exist, based on a non-critical action that is currently undertaken. Anyways, I will present my own plan for the vote. Moratorium should be over by now.

Vi'Talzin · Oct 18, 2022

Red Rationalist said:
Ok, why would a industrial fixer not note a lack of power? And if he did, why would he not present quick and easy fixes to increase power output directly? You misidentifying a problem that doesn't exist, based on a non-critical action that is currently undertaken. Anyways, I will present my own plan for the vote. Moratorium should be over by now.

What?! He has literally taken power production as his first priority? He has one action to pick himself and he picked "Grid Construction", that is denoting he prioritizes that over everything else, like you are just wrong here.

Red Rationalist · Oct 18, 2022

Mr. Sandman said:
What?! He has literally taken power production as his first priority? He has one action to pick himself and he picked "Grid Construction", that is denoting he prioritizes that over everything else, like you are just wrong here.

And Dr. Warcrimes took medication synthesis, despite food being more critical than medicine. Ministers take options that aren't the most urgent because they think they might be otherwise overlooked. If there was a power crisis, we wouldn't need to look between the lines.

Vi'Talzin · Oct 18, 2022

Red Rationalist said:
And Dr. Warcrimes took medication synthesis, despite food being more critical than medicine. Ministers take options that aren't the most urgent because they think they might be otherwise overlooked. If there was a power crisis, we wouldn't need to look between the lines.

She picked that and medicine. They share priority, because many, many people are dying of disease because they are suffering from malnutrition and squalor, the food situation is bad as well. She also chose starch production. Minister Actions are the way they have to absolutely prioritize a program, because it makes it so they don't rely on the direction of the head honcho himself to do something. It absolutely denotes a priority.

Red Rationalist · Oct 18, 2022

Mr. Sandman said:
She picked that and medicine. They share priority, because many, many people are dying of disease because they are suffering from malnutrition and squalor, the food situation is bad as well. She also chose Starch Producction.

Yes, she did that instead of putting two on starch production, which is the critical action. If ministers acted like you think they do, this would be the health crisis is on par with food. Ministers prioritize important things we are likely to overlook over the critical things which we are likely to do.

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