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Breaker of Chains (30k Angron Quest)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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[X] Yes
-[X] Suggest tactics and allies: we're Angron. Don't overthink this. Approach Konrad's compound and wreck his shit. Corax will take care of stragglers, intelligence and opsec.
 
Always Late said:
… I simply must know if this is true.
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I think that Maugan came up with the "mass produced" bit but yeah, the Night Lords had skinning pits even before the Heresy. They'd long since started taking pleasure in the mass misery and slaughter.

In fact, Konrad originally built a case (full legal code and everything) for why Nostramo and his own legion needed to be purged, but when he went to tell Dorn and Fulgrim about it had a fit from his visions and almost killed Dorn outright. (he was found kneeling over Dorn's bleeding body wheeping, iirc). THEN he went to blow it up.

Much like with OTL Angron there's no mystery as to why they sided with Horus; the only mystery is why they didn't turn to Chaos sooner.
 
[X] Yes
-[X] Ensure the destruction of Nostramo is known before taking action, to ensure we aren't wrongly blamed for it.
-[X] Bait him into a confrontation. The one reliable place to find Curze is behind his current target.
 
Varder said:
Very much this. Angron goes around thinking that if things ever come to battle he's stronger than all of his brothers. I want him to either prove it or eat his words.

[X] Yes
-[X] Suggest tactics and allies: we're Angron. Don't overthink this. Approach Konrad's compound and wreck his shit. Corax will take care of stragglers, intelligence and opsec.
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Would you please approval vote the options that don't involve Malcador? I am generally happy to vote for several approaches, but I would not like to offend Horus or give the old monster more knowledge that he can use against us.
 
dptullos said:
It's possible that someone else murdered Nostramo and then framed Curze.

It's just incredibly unlikely, because Curze has an obvious motive and he's been getting steadily worse.



So we're going to work with the man who is better at sneaky backstabs than we are for the comedic value of watching him backstab us?

Hmm, I'm tempted when you put it that way, but I think I'll vote for the option that doesn't involve half a dozen knives in our vital organs.



Corax has zero intention of bringing Curze in alive, so we'll be delivering his corpse.

[X] Yes
- [X] Suggest tactics and allies (Vulkan) Your brother has always been the most humane, that much is obvious to anyone whose met him, given the loyalty between us and no love lost over the Eighths tactics it would be an easy thing to convince the Dragon to face the Night haunter. Upon gathering the three legions suggest a form of bait to bring the most of the Nightlords to bear in one system, then use the combined might of your legions and brothers to bring down Konrads bastard sons and haul their father before the gates of terra for judgement.

Sigillite voters need to consider the fact that Malcador is much, much better at politics than we are, and he is entirely capable of killing two birds with one stone. He could help us destroy Corax in a way that would backfire horribly on Angron.

Also, approaching Malcador and not Horus is a huge insult to Horus, much worse than just running off with Corax. We'd be choosing the Regent of Terra as our ally and not the Warmaster.

Edit:

[X] Yes
-[X] Suggest tactics and allies: we're Angron. Don't overthink this. Approach Konrad's compound and wreck his shit. Corax will take care of stragglers, intelligence and opsec.
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I am approval voting anything reasonable that doesn't involve Malcador. I encourage other posters to do the same. Malcador will be happy to check Curze off his list, and he'll be happy to use this opportunity to prepare the same fate for us.
[/QUOTE]
Counterpoint , the number of power players that are not more sneaky then angron is about as higb as the number of fingers that a veteran operator of plasma weapons has.
 
dptullos said:
I agree that Malcador would probably like to see the Night Lords wiped out. But there are several problems with this plan.

First and most significantly, we would be asking the Regent for Terra for help instead of our brother Horus. Horus is already likely to be unhappy with this plan, and working with Malcador will make things much, much worse. We do not want Horus Lupercal's displeasure.

Secondly, Malcador could be delighted to get rid of Curze, and he could also use this as an opportunity to learn more about Angron's Legion and identify our vulnerabilities. The old monster is good at his job, and he's perfectly capable of killing two birds with one stone.

We'd have to convince the Salamanders that the Legion responsible for creating "mass flaying pits" needs to be Killed Resisting Arrest. That seems like a pretty easy sell to me.
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I don't actually see driving a wedge between the civil and military administration of the Imperium as a bad idea. I also think that 'the civil administration has the ability to BTFO legions for extreme war crimes' is well within Angron's wheelhouse as something he'd like to promote, given his recent attention to legislative rights and rule of law. He'll feel bad about causing Horus problems but eggs, omelettes, and he deserves a bit of grief for the shit he pulled with Corax's legion anyway.

Yeah, Malcador would absolutely use it to learn about Chainbreakers vulnerabilities but like... so what? He's not really a general positioned to take advantage of any military weaknesses, and may not even spot them in the first place— while he's an old warlord, that was during Old Night, which is a very different theatre to Crusade-era war, with wildly different technology. More than that, is he going to consider backstabbing Angron more valuable than undercutting Horus to the tune of two Legions? 'Cause I don't think he will.

I don't necessarily disagree regarding the Salamanders, but everyone's phrasing it as convincing Vulkan when that's just simply not the task at hand if you want the Salamanders on-side. What are their ethos, how do you convince them? You can't just lean on a personal relationship with Vulkan because that's not how the Eighteenth work.
 
[X] Yes
-[X] Don't Approach the Sigillite
-[X] Approach Horus
-[X] Approach Sanguinius
-[X] Approach Khan
-[X] Approach Guilliman
-[X] Approach Vulkan

Approaching the Sigillite seems like an insane plan personally.
 
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Lisafication said:
I don't actually see driving a wedge between the civil and military administration of the Imperium as a bad idea. I also think that 'the civil administration has the ability to BTFO legions for extreme war crimes' is well within Angron's wheelhouse as something he'd like to promote, given his recent attention to legislative rights and rule of law. He'll feel bad about causing Horus problems but eggs, omelettes, and he deserves a bit of grief for the shit he pulled with Corax's legion anyway.

Yeah, Malcador would absolutely use it to learn about Chainbreakers vulnerabilities but like... so what? He's not really a general positioned to take advantage of any military weaknesses, and may not even spot them in the first place— while he's an old warlord, that was during Old Night, which is a very different theatre to Crusade-era war, with wildly different technology. More than that, is he going to consider backstabbing Angron more valuable than undercutting Horus to the tune of two Legions? 'Cause I don't think he will.

I don't necessarily disagree regarding the Salamanders, but everyone's phrasing it as convincing Vulkan when that's just simply not the task at hand if you want the Salamanders on-side. What are their ethos, how do you convince them? You can't just lean on a personal relationship with Vulkan because that's not how the Eighteenth work.
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Another thing that is important to remember is that Malcador doesn't tend to hold grudges. That's part and parcel of the whole "nigh-immortal warlord" thing that's going on - you have to get pretty good at knowing when to cut former friends loose and when your former enemies now have long-term interests that align with yours. If Angron comes to bury the hatchet (somewhere other than in Malcador's skull), I suspect Malcador isn't going to look a gift horse in the mouth - he obviously wants to secure his position and influence and if Angron is going to give him that because their interests on that issue are aligned, he'll just take the L from Nikaea because this is probably a significantly better outcome than he could have hoped for from this whole kerfuffle.
 
As far as Malcador taking this opportunity to use Angron and Corax's back for a knife block, it's not impossible but I don't think it's going to happen now.

Consider Malcador's position. For the longest time the hierarchy of the Imperium has been pretty clear:
1. The Emperor
2. Malcador
3. Literally Everyone Else

And sure, the Primarchs made things complicated, but that was okay, because Malcador always knew that if he had to he could just appeal to the Emperor and override them. Nikea changed all that.

First, Horus overruled Malcador on the matter of the Librarius, just flat out pulled rank, and then when the Emperor did show up it wasn't to side with Mal and put the Primarchs in their place, everyone present caught his (spiritual) backhand across their lips.

So now Malcador has a rival in the form of Horus, he's lost the certainty that he can just phone the Emperor and have Horus put in his place, and in that environment the opportunity to forge a working relationship with two Primarchs and their Legions, to put them in his debt isn't something to throw away in an immediate spite move.

Would he sacrifice Corax and Angron to his own advantage? Absolutely.

Is it to his advantage to sacrifice them here and now? No, no it is not, you don't burn potential resources when you are certain you'll need them for the coming crisis, and Malcador can see as clearly as anyone that a crisis is coming.
 
Wade Garrett said:
Is it to his advantage to sacrifice them here and now? No, no it is not, you don't burn potential resources when you are certain you'll need them for the coming crisis, and Malcador can see as clearly as anyone that a crisis is coming.
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The nice thing about Malcador being an ultra-realist is that his behavior is reasonably predictable. He will fuck Angron over if he sees that his benefit from fucking Angron over is worth more than losing Angron as an asset and probably gaining him as an enemy. Given that Angron is actually a pretty dangerous enemy to have, Angron's position is not ever going to be secure but I think it's a lot safer than people think, especially if Angron uses this opportunity to figure out what other things Malcador wants and find places where Angron and Malcador can cooperate for mutual benefit without either side compromising their interests.

If he wants that, of course. He might just want this to be a one-off instead of playing the political game, which is also an entirely valid future path.
 
MJ12 Commando said:
Presumably Angron, being a Primarch and thus engineered to be a master of war (and remember, war is politics by other means) who successfully organized and led a slave revolt, is not in fact a complete dumbass when it comes to reading people and figuring out their interests.
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Don't forget being the purpose-built super-empath among the Primarchs, he's got that notch on his belt too.
 
[X] Yes
- [X] Suggest tactics and allies (Vulkan) Your brother has always been the most humane, that much is obvious to anyone whose met him, given the loyalty between us and no love lost over the Eighths tactics it would be an easy thing to convince the Dragon to face the Night haunter. Upon gathering the three legions suggest a form of bait to bring the most of the Nightlords to bear in one system, then use the combined might of your legions and brothers to bring down Konrads bastard sons and haul their father before the gates of terra for judgement.... Personally ensure he dies 'resiting arrest"
-[X] Ensure the destruction of Nostramo is known before taking action, to ensure we aren't wrongly blamed for it.
-[X] Bait him into a confrontation. The one reliable place to find Curze is behind his current target.
 
[X] Yes
- [X] Suggest tactics and allies (Vulkan) Your brother has always been the most humane, that much is obvious to anyone whose met him, given the loyalty between us and no love lost over the Eighths tactics it would be an easy thing to convince the Dragon to face the Night haunter. Upon gathering the three legions suggest a form of bait to bring the most of the Nightlords to bear in one system, then use the combined might of your legions and brothers to bring down Konrads bastard sons and haul their father before the gates of terra for judgement.
- [X] Personally ensure he dies 'resisting arrest"

I'm up for anything besides Approaching Malcador tbh.
 
Okay so I think the Vulkan option is hella boring but I totally get why people don't want to jump onboard with Malcador, even if I'm going to stick to my guns on this one. So, for those opposed to the Sigillite, please consider this:

[ ] Yes
- [ ] Approach the Praetorian.

Rogal Dorn is a man dedicated to two things: rule of law and the ideal of the Imperium. Additionally, Curze recently tried to kill him and did in fact leave him pretty grievously wounded, so he has a motive to want the man dead personally — but he's not going to do it if it's illegal.

But if he has an excuse... those visions of Curze's that he is personally aware of sure do sound like consorting with spirits, don't they? And hm, the Nikaea edict declared those who do so anathema. That sounds like a casus belli if someone's looking for one, doesn't it?
 
I will ask, regarding the tactical plan:

What sort of "bait" could we give Konrad that he would actually fall for?

This is a tactic for dealing with forces like Horus, Angron or Robot Girlyman that like bringing their forces together to smash the enemy to bits. Konrad is more likely to just hit and fade, or scatter his legion the moment he realizes what's happening.
 
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