Legacy of The Tenth Crusade - A Divergences of Darkness Nation Quest [Finished]

Well that's a rather bittersweet ending for the two lovers, hope they have something a decent ending and not get lynched by homophobes.

[ ] A Somewhat Fair Deal
-[ ] Continue granting Macedonia naval docking rights
-[ ] Promise not to take land from Macedonian landlords without compensation

Reasoning behind this is to signal to the Macedonians that we are willing to play ball if they are. I honestly don't see a reason why we shouldn't give them docking rights and being willing to compensate people for nationalizing their stuff is always a good thing in my books.

[ ] Kindly Work with Us
-[ ] Give the CAP a ministry
--[ ] Health & Social Affairs
-[ ] Allow Copts to continue operating private religious schools
--[ ] Must teach mandated material

Don't know if this is optimal or not. First I seriously want a loyal bureaucracy and military so I am not taking things that compromise those things. Second giving them a voice in the government should hopefully end with them being willing to be civil with our merry little project.

So thoughts?
 
Reasoning behind this is to signal to the Macedonians that we are willing to play ball if they are. I honestly don't see a reason why we shouldn't give them docking rights and being willing to compensate people for nationalizing their stuff is always a good thing in my books.
Do remember the docking rights thing is the whole reason we're not able to smuggle in supplies from possible allies among Macedonia's enemies. So long as they remain in our harbor, they'll be able to turn away the ships of possible allies.

Anyways, I probably won't be able to make a plan today as I am much too busy.
 
Reasoning behind this is to signal to the Macedonians that we are willing to play ball if they are. I honestly don't see a reason why we shouldn't give them docking rights and being willing to compensate people for nationalizing their stuff is always a good thing in my books.

It should be remembered that Macedonia got that land through force. If anyone was compensated, it was Venetians or other Europeans who previously owned the land, which they also got by force. They did kind of conquer and loot the country.
 
The AENC has to walk a careful balance. The AENC must not antagonize Macedonia and the other colonial European powers too much or they will launch a military intervention into Egypt that will undo the AENC's hard work. At the same time, the AENC cannot appease the European powers too much and fulfill at least some of its lofty promises or it will lose the support of the Egyptian people similar to how the Wafd Party of Egypt eventually lost popular support due to being overly accommodating toward the British OTL. While we are currently able to enter into government without any concessions to Macedonia, we would probably get more leeway from the Europeans in the amount and type of reforms that the AENC can do before provoking military intervention if we grant more concessions now. Of course, breaking promises will likely have worse consequences than not making the concession in the first place.

The Christian Alliance Party has peacefully conceded the election and our previous choices allows us to not have to give any concessions to the CAP. However, the CAP is still a potent political force and could be a big headache for us if angered. It might be a good idea to give some concessions to the CAP voluntarily to gain some goodwill from them, but these concessions should not place the CAP into a strong position to interfere with the AENC's ability to enact its desired reforms or to take control over the Egyptian bureaucracy and military. Even if we do not intend to work with the CAP, it would be unwise to completely alienate the Coptic community and cause them to view the AENC as their enemies. The AENC needs at least some Coptic support to govern effectively and cannot afford drive the entire Coptic community into the arms of the CAP. Of course, breaking promises will likely have worse consequences than not making the concession in the first place.
 
Reasoning behind this is to signal to the Macedonians that we are willing to play ball if they are. I honestly don't see a reason why we shouldn't give them docking rights and being willing to compensate people for nationalizing their stuff is always a good thing in my books.

Colonizers own large chunks of our country and we should compensate them for it? With what money? We may as well just give up.

I think compensation for landlords is the last concession we should give.
 
Fair point, Another fact that influenced that particular set of decisions is that going to radical will unite the Europeans against us. Something that we cannot afford, still I am open to suggestions as to how we are going to thread the needle on this particular mess.
 
This should be fun. Here's my vote.

[X] Macedonia
-[X] Continue granting Macedonia naval docking rights

It's true that letting them keep control over Egypt's shore isn't exactly a good thing, but on the other hand, it will mollify them. If I recall correctly, they aim to be the masters of the East Mediterranean. By letting them keep their naval rights, Egypt will have more leeway to get the economy pumping properly, and not having it bleed straight into the pockets of Macedonians. The grain proposal would be bad for the economy, and if times get bad, could even lead to starvation if Egypt isn't careful. The cotton proposal would've made the AENC weak before the people it's trying to win over (as well as aid the Macedonian economy), and the option of paying Macedonian landlords reparations for nationalization feels like a way to let them extort as they will and possibly bankrupt Egypt several times for it. Sure, it's possible they won't be that bad, but you can't trust the Macedonian landlords to not pull what France did to Haiti in the 19th century (in our timeline that is). Taking that option would make things go quite badly in my view. Taking no options would bring them closer to just straight up invading to reassert themselves. It's possible they wouldn't do anything, but not a risk that should be taken if you ask me.

[X] CAP
[X] Allow Copts to continue operating private religious schools
-[X] Must teach mandated material

Now, the CAP has been gracious in defeat, and as such, a concession should be made to the Copts in general. The CAP still has a lot of power, and should not be given too much, lest they gain a foothold that cannot be removed. As a gesture of working together, private religious schools should continue to operate freely, although mandated material would be wiser than not, to avoid the CAP potentially controlling the information taught in those schools and potentially use it. Now, it's possible they might raise a stink at still having to teach mandated material, it shouldn't be too bad, especially when compared to no concessions, as the AENC won with a clear majority, even if said majority is not that big. They could spin it as a small victory from being gracious in defeat, and in the long run, it wouldn't mean too much. A strategic concession, if you will. Giving the CAP a ministry could be risky, especially if they ever got pissed off. With Health and Social Services, they could make sure to give only Copts good treatment. Most rural citizens are Arab Egyptians, so if they ever got mad, they could deliberately mismanage rural affairs and not only weaken Egyptian Arabs, but also Egypt as a whole. Note that the Copts and the CAP are not the same entity, but pissing off the former will piss off the latter, and by giving them a concession or two here and there, it might draw more Copts to support the AENC. Even if it's only a small fraction of them, they currently have a higher weight in the government due to voting laws than most Egyptians, so the more, the better. Keeping them in control over bureaucracy or military matters could prove disastrous, and giving them their own voting districts would heighten the divisions between Arab and Copt Egyptians, as well as ensure that the Copts will vote more homogeneously, and almost always in favor of the CAP, which would render efforts to get Copt votes an uphill struggle, if not futile.

That's my reasoning.
 
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Some quick thoughts
[ ] Continue granting Macedonia naval docking rights
This is a very potent concession because having Macedonian warships in the harbor of Alexandria allows Macedonia to overthrow the Egyptian government at will if the Macedonian government desired it. it worth considering. This concession also allows Macedonia to easily prevent foreign aid from entering Egypt. Forcing the Macedonian warships to move to the Suez Canal will anger Macedonia but it will expand our options.
[ ] Continue providing Macedonia cheap grain
I think this will be an absolutely necessary concession to make despite the potential pain and missed income it will cause us. Since the days of the late Roman Republic, European empires have come to depend on access to cheap grain from Egypt to feed their growing populations. Julius Caesar and later the Roman emperors would intervene in Egypt to ensure the supply of cheap Egyptian grain continued to flow. Macedonia seems to have continued the European imperial tradition of dependence on cheap Egyptian grain. Cutting off the supply of cheap (in fact, almost free) grain to Macedonia, even by simply demanding market prices for the grain, would cause food prices to significantly rise in Macedonia, disrupt the Macedonian economy, and increase the chance of provoking military intervention.
[ ] Promise not to touch Macedonian cotton plantations
A decent concession toward Macedonia. However, this conflict with the AENC's promise of land reform and would anger some of our supporters. We could make the concession and then revoke it later but the consequences of making and breaking a promise will be larger than not making it in the first place.
[ ] Promise not to take land from Macedonian landlords without compensation
The AENC simply does not have the money to pay for compensation to the landlords and the compensation rate would be set by Macedonia. It is a promise that we cannot realistically keep even if we wanted to keep it.

[ ] Hire CAP members civil servants
CAP members are often well educated and would probably be decent civil servants. It would be a strong concession to the CAP and reduce the chance of AENC rule spooking the Coptic community. On the other hand, the CAP probably already has members in the Egyptian bureaucracy, these new civil servants would not be loyal to the AENC agenda and hinder the AENC's vital efforts to take control of the Egyptian bureaucracy. Even if we choose not to make this concession, I think we should at least make a point to appoint some Coptic civil servants in future turns to appease the Coptic community if not the CAP.
[ ] Promise not to demote Copt officers
This is a potent concession to the Coptic community. Not removing Copt officers, regardless of their loyalty or competence, will do much to ease the concerns of the Coptic community. However, the AENC needs a loyal, competent, and civilian led military to successfully enact its vision. What we do here, the Egyptian military must have loyal officers in it and disloyal officers removed or marginalized.
[ ] Give the CAP a ministry
-[ ] Health & Social Affairs
OR
-[ ] Agriculture & Rural Development
This is a big symbolic concession to the CAP that shows that the AENC is ready to work with its rivals. If we are going to give the CAP a ministry, I think we should give the CAP the Ministry of Health & Social Affairs. As a colony, I really doubt that Egypt has an impressive health and welfare system. Additionally, I doubt that we can really afford the costs to significantly improve the Egyptian health and welfare system for now. The big AENC promise is land reform so the Ministry of Agriculture & Rural Development is out because the AENC should absolutely control that ministry ensure that land reforms are carried out effectively without sabotage from a junior partner. While Egypt's health and welfare system being terrible and being outperformed by Western missionary networks in the 1920s and 1930s did erode the support of the Wafd Party over two decades OTL, I think land reform is the currently more pressing issue.
[ ] Allow Copt majority areas local self government
This is a potent concession to the Coptic community, and I like the idea in abstract. In practice, implementation would likely be very messy, anger a lot of Arab Egyptian supporters of the AENC, and end up heightening the divides between Arab and Copt Egyptians.
 
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Ok, after seeing some discussion about stuff here's the plan that I am currently going for

[X] Economy First
-[X] Continue granting Macedonia naval docking rights

[X] Minor Concessions
-[X] Allow Copts to continue operating private religious schools
--[X] Must teach mandated material


[X] The Loyal Opposition
-[X] Give the CAP a ministry
--[X] Health & Social Affairs
-[X] Allow Copts to continue operating private religious schools
--[X] Must teach mandated material

Edit:
A thought, we can move the government to Cairo, can we?

Edit 2:
Was eventually convinced to change up the Coptic vote, still sticking with the Macedonia Vote though
 
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Got 20 minutes so I'll try to make it count with some commentary.

[X] Alexander's Folly
-[X] Promise not to take land from Macedonian landlords without compensation

Okay, conceding something to Macedonia is important here, but this is the only one we can actually afford to do. I am gonna start off saying why the others aren't acceptable before moving on to why this one is.

We under no circumstances can allow them to continue docking here. That allows them continued direct access into our greatest city of Alexandria as well as allows them to continue boosting opposition. Furthermore, it's a lot more difficult to connect up with their opposition, current or potential, if Macedonia can report on every ship that enters our harbors. That's not to say them moving to the Suez will be the end-all of our problems. It will just make things easier for us than otherwise.

Next is the grain and cotton. Neither of these are tenable. We'll go bankrupt if we continue operating our main export at a loss. If we truly want Egyptian independence, it will need to be done in a way that develops Egypt as more than just the extraction colony it was under Venice and was about to be under Macedonia. We will need money and land for that - hence the necessity of boosting export prices and keeping land reform an option (even if you discount the political consequences of land reform). In addition, moving the cruisers away from Alexandria combined with selling our grains at a profit opens us up to the greater market. You guys in analyzing have all been focusing purely on Macedonia, when there's a whole sea of great powers to trade and negotiate with! With land reform and boosting our grain prices, we can even make the Egyptian grains and cotton competitive enough to start a price war between the great powers and make the Christian League and other such powers begin bickering amongst themselves for influence over Egypt. That in turns allows them to counteract one another as we play them against each other.

The extra income from the agriculture market along with another thing I'll talk about in the Copt vote will allow us to afford land reform, military reform, and industrialization. It will be expensive, but we need to keep our PR up so buying the land at least keeps things non-hostile.

[X] The Loyal Opposition
-[X] Give the CAP a ministry
--[X] Health & Social Affairs
-[X] Allow Copts to continue operating private religious schools
--[X] Must teach mandated material

Now the primary goal here is to ameliorate the fears of the Coptic community. The government needs to communicate that just because they lost doesn't mean we're gonna bring down the hammer on them. In doing so, I hope they can become a loyal opposition party rather than a hotspot for the great powers to use against us both in future civil insurrection and just as a propaganda point about "Egypt suppressing Christians" or something.

To this end, they will be given the Health and Social Affairs ministry (which they should already have the greatest expertise in given how educated they are) and be allowed the freedom to continue operating their private schools as a show of good faith and mutual cooperation. It is a good start to a working relationship without conceding anything too damaging. This is unlike the "give them autonomy" which would deprive us of important tax revenue when we need it most as well as open them up to scheming before we've secured them as a loyal opposition. The officers and civil servants options too just go against our short and long-term goals both.

In addition, I am pretty sure the "they have to teach mandated curriculum" just means we can establish a minimum of what they're required to teach. That should be an acceptable condition as long as we don't start disallowing them to teach things, like the Coptic language or Coptic theology.
 
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[X] Alexander's Folly
-[X] Promise not to take land from Macedonian landlords without compensation
[X] The Loyal Opposition
-[X] Give the CAP a ministry
--[X] Health & Social Affairs
-[X] Allow Copts to continue operating private religious schools
--[X] Must teach mandated material
 
@Fission Battery How important is the cheap and almost free Egyptian grain to the Macedonian economy? Ancient Rome was critically dependent on Egyptian grain, but Macedonia has only recently taken control of Egypt at this point and might not have built a dependence yet. Would being forced to pay fair market value for the grain be an annoyance for Macedonia or would it significantly disrupt the Macedonian economy?

@PyrrosWarrior So your plan is to sell Egyptian grain at fair market value to pay for the compensation to the landlords? Perhaps it could work but Macedonian banks would be setting the rates for the land which will likely be very high, and this concession would annoy the left wing of the AENC. I do agree with your plan to deal with the CAP.
 
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@Fission Battery How important is the cheap and almost free Egyptian grain to the Macedonian economy? Ancient Rome was critically dependent on Egyptian grain, but Macedonia has only recently taken control of Egypt at this point and might not have built a dependence yet. Would being forced to pay fair market value for the grain be an annoyance for Macedonia or would it significantly disrupt the Macedonian economy?

It would lean more towards the annoyance end than the disrupt the entire economy end. They aren't dependent on it but they sure do love it. It's made food cheaper and more of that is always appreciated. Macedonia does subsidize their own farmers at a slight loss to avoid driving them bankrupt, while dumping a lot of the excess grain into occupied territories in Anatolia to depress the price to drive Turkish farmers into bankruptcy. That forces them to sell their land and turn into tenant farmers for Greek settlers or move into cities and become workers. It also sells a lot of grain too, mostly to Armenia to prop it up.

Edit: Also, I may be incorrect, but I believe Pyros suggested the compensation one with the intention of never touching Macedonian land while doing land reform or touching it once Macedonian was distracted with something else and unable to respond. Basically an empty promise. I could be mistaken though.
 
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[X] Give Macedonia Nothing
-[X] Nothing

[X] The Loyal Opposition
-[X] Give the CAP a ministry
--[X] Health & Social Affairs
-[X] Allow Copts to continue operating private religious schools
--[X] Must teach mandated material
 
[X] Give Macedonia Nothing
-[X] Nothing

That "compensation level will be decided by the Macedonian banks" factor means they're totally gonna extort us.

[X] The Loyal Opposition
-[X] Give the CAP a ministry
--[X] Health & Social Affairs
-[X] Allow Copts to continue operating private religious schools
--[X] Must teach mandated material
 
[X] Alexander's Folly
-[X] Promise not to take land from Macedonian landlords without compensation
[X] The Loyal Opposition
-[X] Give the CAP a ministry
--[X] Health & Social Affairs
-[X] Allow Copts to continue operating private religious schools
--[X] Must teach mandated material
 
@PyrrosWarrior So your plan is to sell Egyptian grain at fair market value to pay for the compensation to the landlords? Perhaps it could work but Macedonian banks would be setting the rates for the land which will likely be very high, and this concession would annoy the left wing of the AENC. I do agree with your plan to deal with the CAP.

Edit: Also, I may be incorrect, but I believe Pyros suggested the compensation one with the intention of never touching Macedonian land while doing land reform or touching it once Macedonian was distracted with something else and unable to respond. Basically an empty promise. I could be mistaken though.
Neither of these are correct, and I am rather confused how both of you were so off the mark about the plan when I wrote it all clear as day. Everything is interconnected* to create a plan that will boost our overall income, not just use our base income.
We will need money and land for that - hence the necessity of boosting export prices and keeping land reform an option (even if you discount the political consequences of land reform).
I only called land reform, tax revenue, and being able to market our grain and our cotton (font raised to point out that it's two exports since both of you missed that fact) a necessary condition, not a sufficient condition, for us to work towards being in the black.


We under no circumstances can allow them to continue docking here. That allows them continued direct access into our greatest city of Alexandria as well as allows them to continue boosting opposition. Furthermore, it's a lot more difficult to connect up with their opposition, current or potential, if Macedonia can report on every ship that enters our harbors. That's not to say them moving to the Suez will be the end-all of our problems. It will just make things easier for us than otherwise.

Next is the grain and cotton. Neither of these are tenable. We'll go bankrupt if we continue operating our main export at a loss. If we truly want Egyptian independence, it will need to be done in a way that develops Egypt as more than just the extraction colony it was under Venice and was about to be under Macedonia. We will need money and land for that - hence the necessity of boosting export prices and keeping land reform an option (even if you discount the political consequences of land reform). In addition, moving the cruisers away from Alexandria combined with selling our grains at a profit opens us up to the greater market. You guys in analyzing have all been focusing purely on Macedonia, when there's a whole sea of great powers to trade and negotiate with! With land reform and boosting our grain prices, we can even make the Egyptian grains and cotton competitive enough to start a price war between the great powers and make the Christian League and other such powers begin bickering amongst themselves for influence over Egypt. That in turns allows them to counteract one another as we play them against each other.
I hope they can become a loyal opposition party
As I directly explained up above, my whole idea isn't just to use grain and cotton profits (as well as tax revenue) to fund buying up land. Buying land would be a longer program, like every IRL land reform program that relies on compensation does. It's also not the point. The point I kept talking about was to rely on selling INFLUENCE. By opening up our markets to the broader world, we can negotiate better deals with other great powers, including Macedonia's allies, in a manner that will cause a competition for control of Egypt's markets. That in turn allows us to pit them against each other and give us better negotiating room between all the powers, Macedonia included but not limited to just them. Better negotiating room means we can negotiate better prices above fair market price for our exports as well as give more economic room in dealing with foreign banks, Macedonian banks included. This better trade and higher income from deals with foreigners and pitting them against one another will allow us to INVEST in the sectors that can actually grow our economy and prepare for our eventual usurpation of power by the pan-Arabs. I explicitly said this above yet somehow all you got from that was "you're planning on blowing it all on land."

This can't work if you don't concede anything, however. You need to still have a working relationship with Macedonia at this stage because, like it or not, Egypt is not yet sovereign and independent. We are still within their sphere and will need to work to create a wedge between us and them, and the influence of other foreign powers will work to cancel one another out. It's "minor power trapped between great powers" historical strategy 101. Failing to concede anything will make them less likely to engage in our attempts to "sell" influence over Egypt in a competitive way, and more likely to react in a more assertive way because we'd already proven the AENC regime isn't willing to play ball.

It's also why the whole thing about making the Coptics into a loyal opposition is important. The Coptics are scared. They've been a minority for centuries, usually a persecuted one. They know the more the game is unrigged from favoring them, the more likely they will fall into political irrelevance and persecution once more. Despite their minority status, however, they have just enough numbers (as well as being educated and wealthy enough for other influence) to be a legitimate threat for civil insurrection. They could never win a civil war under a pro-Coptic banner, but they can prove to be a low-level conflict if we don't integrate them. Making them into a loyal opposition by proving we are willing to work with them in good faith makes it less likely they'll side with foreigners again for protection, which in turn reduces the risk of them being used against us by a great power looking to exploit vulnerabilities in Egypt for their own gain.

That said, you did say an original point that I didn't address in my original post so I'll thank you for that. I did briefly consider the political implications of each action, but I didn't really have the time to elaborate too much on that so I left it out due to its irrelevance. Functionally, we will always be "annoying" a wing of the party one way or another. The Leftists will be annoyed at compensating the Macedonians, the Arab Landowners of the AENC will be against land reform (barring one limited to taking land from the Coptics) period because it attacks them, the Islamists will be against allowing the Coptics to continue private religious schools, etc. This is perfectly normal political wheeling and dealing. Our whole job isn't to never step on anyone's toes because that'll get us nowhere. The job is to balance interests while subtly ostracizing the factions that we do not want in power when we are ready to rise up i.e. for me that would be promoting the Leftists and Ba'athists.

*which makes the fact that we have to vote this as two separate plans rather annoying. Only half of the plan getting voted in ruins the whole thing and makes it unworkable. You can't properly plan for the long-term if your left arm is trying to do something completely different than your right. If you guys agree with what I am planning, vote for both my plans. If you disagree with my long-term plan, vote for neither. I'd rather not accept you guys voting for only one of the two and it personally really bugs me that some of you are voting for only half of it. All or nothing.
 
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[X] Alexander's Folly
-[X] Promise not to take land from Macedonian landlords without compensation
[X] The Loyal Opposition
-[X] Give the CAP a ministry
--[X] Health & Social Affairs
-[X] Allow Copts to continue operating private religious schools
--[X] Must teach mandated material
 
[X] Alexander's Folly
-[X] Promise not to take land from Macedonian landlords without compensation
[X] The Loyal Opposition
-[X] Give the CAP a ministry
--[X] Health & Social Affairs
-[X] Allow Copts to continue operating private religious schools
--[X] Must teach mandated material
 
[X] Alexander's Folly
-[X] Promise not to take land from Macedonian landlords without compensation
[X] The Loyal Opposition
-[X] Give the CAP a ministry
--[X] Health & Social Affairs
-[X] Allow Copts to continue operating private religious schools
--[X] Must teach mandated material
I have been convinced of the logic of this plan. It is a relatively safe plan that appeases the Europeans and the CAP without limiting our options too much that continues the trend of the AENC quietly building up its influence in Egypt. @PyrrosWarrior My apologies for not fully understanding the intent behind your plan earlier.
 
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[X] Alexander's Folly
-[X] Promise not to take land from Macedonian landlords without compensation
[X] The Loyal Opposition
-[X] Give the CAP a ministry
--[X] Health & Social Affairs
-[X] Allow Copts to continue operating private religious schools
--[X] Must teach mandated material
 
Are people really bandwagoning on giving up land reform, the single most likely issue to rally people to our party?

[X] Give Macedonia Nothing
-[X] Nothing
[X] The Loyal Opposition
-[X] Give the CAP a ministry
--[X] Health & Social Affairs
-[X] Allow Copts to continue operating private religious schools
--[X] Must teach mandated material
 
...Wow. I literally just rebuted that wasn't what I was planning on and you just completely ignore it.

What are you talking about? I'm talking about the concession we're choosing to make, which does in fact make land reform prohibitively expensive. Your plan to open up trade rely on us having something to sell. We don't really have markets for people to compete for beyond land and what it produces, being a pretty backward nation.

I'm not opposed to giving other concessions, I'm voting for none because it's the only other plan with some votes.
 
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