A Simple Transaction I

Decided to go through the options and write down my interpretation. I'm probably wrong on some points, but that's what discussion is for

As an aside:
Trying to evaluate the mechanical benefits has become a bit difficult for me at the levels Hunger now operates. I mean, having infinite Rank sounds cool, but what does it even mean in terms of practical effects? Every additional point to Rank represented a significant improvement previously, yet now it would be just set to infinite? It's much easier to appreciate stuff like 'you are the Curse now' than 'infinite stats' or '+1 to ISH', despite the former likely being much more significant in the Curseverse.

Not just because it's difficult to understand Hunger's new limits, but also because it's unclear where the Maiden stands in comparison. We took Innermost Sanctum and Equinox Lacing, IIRC, and Rihaku mentioned that even with the ridiculous powerups from this post on offer, our victory is far from guaranteed. But how does she compare to Hunger, numerically? Does she have infinite stats and/or findross generation from her stint in the Daylight Realm? Has she copied Gisena's Heaven's Lathe imitation (flawed as it might be) and maybe even taken it further? How far could a combination of inconspicuous Graces we have never even seen in AST 0 take her? Do we just assign her arbitrary powers (limited in elevation, thankfully) and hope Hunger can cope?

If it wasn't clear by now, I'll repeat: my evaluation of the options is likely suspect, but I'll try regardless.

Rihaku said:

Finality

Thanks to everyone who has contributed Arete in any form to this thread. The advancements below reflect the sum total of combined effort, and the proper reward for such dedication of sweat, blood and genius can only be: power beyond all reason.

[ ] The Forebear's Blade - Inheritance

May you forever disregard the counsel of your lessors, no matter their wisdom or cunning. May you stifle all law and paradigm not born solely of your writ. May you carry on unswervingly until the bitter and uttermost end.

May you be doomed to tyranny in deed, and in name forevermore.

-The Forebear of Dynasties

The once and future king. At times little more than feeble whisper of a prophecy, now a promise vindicated in full. Hunger comes into the fullness of his power; the might of his former self at an analogous stage of development is added to his own. Moreover, he now is the Forebear of Dynasties returned in truth, and bears all the glory and terror of his unfathomable epochal reign. A law unto himself that uncontested could bring all creation to ruin; sheer limitless power, heedless will like the spark of divinity curdled into unyielding iron.

Req. Once and Future III, Haeliel

Uttermost, End: The Doom of Tyranny is removed from Hunger's Curses; rather, it is simply how the Forebear is. 'Mitigation' is meaningless and impossible for such a fundamental pillar of the Forebear's essential nature.

*What is Rank, but the weight of narrative compounded by density? And what is density, but a function of the weight within a given space? To the uttermost master of Law and Space, the natural conclusion is no supernova of will, but rather an inescapable singularity.
*Add infinite Willpowers +s.
*Set Rank to infinite.

Ruin Incarnate: The Forebear is Ruin itself and casts its pallor across all that he touches; every person, object, polity or phenomenon with which he enters contact is doomed irrevocably to ruin. Though, being its absolute master, the ending of his favored kingdoms may come only after the long and gentle decay of a vigintillion eons; while the barding of his enemy disintegrates in moments.

*Merge Rank and Ruin. The wielder's Rank now drives all within its influence to ruin of some form, though the wielder has great discretion over the nature and timeframe of manifestation.
*If Rank is infinite, its cardinality is now determined by the wielder's prior Rank and the might of their Power of Ruin.

Coronation: The king, must be stronger than anyone else. The king, must be grander than anyone else. Only then may he shelter his kingdom in the face of disasters outrageous and without end. Whether he stands alone or with countless legions behind, ultimate responsibility belongs always and only to the king. Glory is lighter than sunbeams; duty is heavier than eons. Those who fail to embrace it will find themselves without head or crown.

*+800% All Attributes
*+1000 Might +s
*Apply Imprisoner True's Sanctum effect to the entirety of Hunger's kingdoms.

Inheritence represents the past, Hunger's identity as the Forebear of Dynasties, the culmination of ancient promises, Hunger's relationships with Gisena and Haeliel; victory though at grievous cost and the might of Hunger alone. ++Gisena, +Haeliel, unlocks Haeliel Ending.

Arete generated from this point forward will directly, though likely modestly, improve Hunger's odds against the Maiden.

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List of effects:
* Hunger 'loses' the Tyrant's Doom? Or rather, that's simply his personality now; if you can't beat them, join them?
* +Infinity to Rank, Willpower (and thus physical stats thanks to Cut Through); cardinality of Rank determined by prior Rank and Might
* +800% Attributes
* +1000 Might +s (likely only important for Rank cardinality)
* Ruin and Rank combine; Letrizia can now legit tell us that we 'ruin everything'
* ++Gisena, +Haeliel
* unlocks Haeliel Ending; maybe even the super-secret Apocryphal Ending? surely she can give her fellow Curse a chance

When I first read the Forebear blurb for Inheritance I was tempted to facepalm repeatedly. It's one of those things where the conclusion seems obvious in hindsight, with several hints included in prior chapters already. Yet no matter how much Rihaku hyped up the Forebear, it had somehow never occurred to me that he could have been the one that cast the Doom on the Accursed. The idea of the Accursed playing any role but a Deus Ex Machina with the sole purpose of offering deals for power, never mind being a real opponent of anything from this quest, felt too remote to entertain seriously. Well, that will teach me to make such assumptions.

And to think, this option gives Hunger the Forebear's power at an analogous stage of development. Truth to be told, it's a bit embarrassing to see just how far the Forebear had taken his abilities when he was at the same 'level' as Hunger, all without the benefits of Progression. No wonder the guy went on to challenge the Accursed. Maybe it's the effects of a different focus, since Hunger often spreads himself thin and the [REDACTED] of his powers was more often than not incidental. The Forebear was a SORD guy through and through, and didn't let other shiny options distract him from what was important: namely learning how to Cut Through his problems better.

I've already mentioned that I have trouble assessing what 'infinite Rank, Willpower and physical stats' will do for us, but it's certainly better than not having them against an opponent that even Forebear!Hunger would find challenging. While Rihaku has been quoted multiple times saying that +1 ISH is more useful in some situations, one should remember that 'some' is far from 'all' or even 'most'. The option talks about 'victory though at grievous cost' in the end, which isn't very encouraging, but in the end it's the one that focuses on the simple goal of improving Hunger's power in pursuit of victory over the Maiden. There isn't a lot of variety there, but we already had that with Archmage. This is Might in its rawest form, applied both to Hunger's physical prowess and his magical potency.

For example, I remember one of our Praxis advancements giving us up to +2 ISH to speed till we were at least as fast as our opponent. Combined with infinite Praxis stamina (thanks to infinite Will) and super-Ruin, that should make Artful Thorn that much more deadly... though the Maiden probably has some way around it. Apparently we don't have infinite Praxis stamina.
Our Rank likely also has infinite range, so we'll be constantly attacking the Maiden and her plans with Ruin and force her to defend against it. Coronation's effects on the True Sanctum are quite ridiculous as well, expanding what had previously been a radius of 3 meters of functional invincibility to our entire kingdom.

By the way, while thinking about Ruin and looking at the Maiden's winning options, it occurred to me that the phrase 'unable to sleep, or undertake any other form of true rest' is a bit unclear. Does that only apply within the Daylight Realm, or is it something like a permanent price in exchange for access to the Realm? If it's the latter, we could try to focus our Ruin on her 'mental wellbeing' or something else that requires 'true rest' to recover. It says she has other means to recover, but it still shouldn't be a meaningless weakness.

Naturally, it's not all sunshine and daisies. That the whole kingdom is our Sanctum incentivizes the Maiden to destroy that kingdom, be it by stirring up rebellion or just destroying it outright. I doubt much of the population will survive in the aftermath, whatever the outcome. We should be able to restore everything later, but that way lies rationalization of arbitrary sacrifices in pursuit of power. It's a rational approach to life for a Progression-type Cursebearer, but it's also understandably uncomfortable to read about.

'Ruin Incarnate' puts quite a downer on our aspirations of an eternal and perfect kingdom too. With Hunger around, everything will come to an end someday, though that day could be inconceivably far off. Some speculate that Hunger would be a failure of a Cursebearer if he couldn't reverse this effect after a vigintillion years, but I'm not so certain this won't become a fundamental part of his nature. What if he acquires further powers that build on it, and the reversal requires that he give up everything he built upon that?

I'm also curious whether this Ruin effect applies to Hunger himself. Will he have to set a death date and follow through at some point? Sounds quite unlikely to me, but it's often the case that power requires sacrifice. Whatever the case, I don't think 'everything is doomed to ruin' is necessarily such a bad concept to incorporate. It's not nice or pretty, but there's a certain gravitas to it. The Maiden might insist that everything has an end, but Hunger is the one that determines how he gets there.

To conclude, Haeliel approves of this option. Do you want to disappoint the Angel of Heroism? Do you?!
(no really, why the hell does Haeliel like this)

[ ] The Ring Crimson - Blood Halo

A lone silhouette on the horizon, the red sun of dawn like pennants of battle about him.
The Ring of Blood is for blood's spilling: as it is spoken, so may it be.

The Ring Crimson has been Hunger's foremost tool of restoration and augmentation for long months past; but the nature of its wielder is Progression, and the nature of Progression is change. Not every advancement comes unalloyed: that the universe might bend towards the just, does not dictate every arc of that journey curve towards the good. On the altar of victory the Maiden sacrificed rest; in rising to answer her, it is only just that Hunger make a sacrifice of equal proportion.

Dissolved the band of shining silver; gone the ruby jewel; the crimson brilliance all that remains, halo of war limning the form of its wielder. No more is the Ring an instrument of replenishment, or fulcrum of essential transformation: now simply a naked blade, implement of battle unceasing.

*+1 ISH in battle, applied to all direct offensive actions and relevant forms of defense.
*-0.2 ISH when not in battle. Applies to all active and passive actions and effects, though Once and Future II mitigates this.
*+100,000 Might and AGI, +10,000 INT, WITS, APP, PROT, and Prowess
*Add the Domain of Battles to the wielder's repertoire and maximize his ability therein. Within the context of battle he can easily manipulate virtually any circumstance, phenomenon or outcome. Effects of symbolic importance are heightened further still.
*The wielder's attacks cleave the blood and essence of his foe. Wounds he inflicts are ever-bleeding and unhealable, amplifying themselves over time. Damage so inflicted applies even if the target would not be harmed by bleeding, or lacks blood to spill. The wielder may classify any form of offensive interaction - insults, scheming, wearing garish clothing - as an attack utilizing his full physical parameters.
*Aobaru also receives the benefits and drawbacks above.

*Armies of the Shogun: Absorbs the Shogun to acquire the following ability - no matter how powerful the wielder becomes, the military forces under his personal command will always represent a significant contribution to his overall strength. This operates by empowering the wielder's subordinates so long as they exist within the context of an army, squad or military corps. Informal associations thereof (furious mob, adventuring party, hive-mind creature swarm) also qualify. The force in question must receive the wielder's personal leadership in combat; but once it has done so and is recognized as such, will persist with a significant fraction of its newfound strength even should the wielder fall. Only one force may benefit at a time, be it single yojimbo or limitless self-multiplying horde.

Forces of greater size, cohesion and quality enjoy a larger increase: the leader of a squad might find them empowered only to half his own strength, while the Shogun of a millions-strong army would see its combined might eclipse his own 100 times. Diminishing returns apply beyond that level.

*Devouring War: Absorb Verschlengorge to cause all peer-level or greater enemies to qualify as Hunger Sated targets. The Decimator's Affliction may now be fed directly through acts of violence caused in war. These effective mitigation abilities do increase the difficulty of further Decimator mitigation.

*The Progression penalty of the Ring Crimson is removed. Its bonus remains.
*Removes the power of the Ring Crimson over the domains of healing, rejuvenation, restoration, and the esoteric modification of life, mind, or spirit. The wielder may still receive healing by other means, though this is penalized brutally (-1 ISH).
*+50% to the effects of all other Halo Advancements, interpreted generously.
*Hunger loses the physical form of the Ring Crimson, and is perpetually outlined by a ring of crimson light behind. Enemies who touch even the radiant glow of that light are utterly sliced to ribbons.
*Perhaps due to this perpetual illumination, Hunger's Praxis-light appears crimson in color.

Blood Halo represents the present, the action of conquest, Hunger's identity as Supreme Commander of humanity, his mentorship of Aobaru, the ultimate purpose of the Foremost, triumph in the Ring- (and all further) wars, and the power of companions united. +5 Accursed Favor, +All Companions, additionally ++Aobaru, ++Adorie, --Letrizia, +++++++++Verschlengorge as its ultimate purpose is fulfilled.

Arete generated from this point forward will directly improve the survival % of Hunger's companions in the case both of his victory and his defeat.

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List of effects:
* +1 battle ISH (direct offensive actions and relevant forms of defense), -0.2 ISH outside of battle
* +100,000 Might and AGI, +10,000 INT, WITS, APP, PROT, and Prowess; it's not +Infinity to Will and physical stats, but the other ones listed here get a better deal than with IH; funnily enough, IH Hunger has much better WIS, CHA, MAN and LCK
* get maximized Battle Domain; not quite auto-winning every engagement, but I'm hard-pressed to tell the difference
* attacks deal unhealable damage that becomes worse in time; whether the enemy has blood is immaterial
* any form of attack, even social and mental ones, can be used as a vector for physical ones; make bad taste work to your advantage, Hunger!
* same effects apply to Aobaru

* our armies aren't irrelevant mobs anymore; ironically, best used on our own clones
* remove the Ring's Progression penalty; nothing changes for Praxis training, but Archmage benefits a lot
* Ring can't heal or manipulate life anymore, and even other healing effects on Hunger get -1 ISH
* +50% to Haloes; would be more useful if we had taken more of these, but it's quite neat even as is, and it's not as if it's too late to start collecting them now
* Ring's physical form gets sacrificed on the altar of coolness; it was so envious of our Blade that it has learned to cut too
* best benefit: Praxis strokes are red now; Praxis options might become red too if we go too far... or far enough?
* Versch gets eaten! but he likes it
* Shogun is consumed as well I guess? not that anyone cares; that will teach him to corrupt our disciple
* +5 Accursed Favor, +All Companions, ++Aobaru, ++Adorie, --Letrizia, +++++++++Verschlengorge

First of all, what the hell does +10000 to Appearance even do; are we prettier than Gisena now? Is Aobaru prettier than Gisena?! Will we have to reject the Maiden's confession before the final battle? Sometimes I wonder about our Ring's priorities, if this is what comes from its sacrifice...

This option seems to be the scalpel to IH's hammer and IN's shield. In comparison, this is a less powerful Hunger, though more intelligent and skilled in application of said power in return. This is not to say it's weak, as a +1 to ISH means both great elevation, but also a broadening of abilities. It's hard to tell what it will do in each specific circumstance, but overall likely some form of 'you've activated my trap card' when the Maiden least expects it. Repeatedly.

Mastery over the Battle Domain seems to confer general reality warping powers so long as we're fighting. Seems pretty useful, seeing how victory over the Maiden is predicated on fighting her. Plus we'll likely spend a significant chunk of our time in the future battling against someone or something. Of course the question is just how potent the reality warping is and how much trouble the Maiden would have countering it. But the +1 ISH should help a lot in this respect.

I'm not certain what the exact tactics for this option are. The Sanctum and unhealable damage likely mean that Hunger should stick as closely as possible to the Maiden and not let up on attacks, but that's not really in line with with this more fragile build and the ability to make garish clothing count as a physical attack. BH also doesn't offer much in terms of protecting the Human Sphere from the Maiden. For example, it's the option that seems the most vulnerable to severance from the Astral Realm to me. Let's hope the army of clones will server as a capable distraction.

Our companions (with the exception of Letrizia) are generally more in favor of this option. With the exception of Verschlengorge, who is simply ecstatic to finally achieve his ultimate purpose and resolve Decimator Mitigation issues, the rest of them are probably just glad that Hunger doesn't try to bear all the weight on his own shoulders? Except that unless I missed my mark, Army of Shogun benefits the most from billions of Hunger clones. Maybe the companions are supposed to become commanders? Human Sphere armies might join too. Diminishing returns from greater numbers doesn't mean none. And should the Maiden seal Hunger's cloning ability (I can't rule out anything by this point), having additional armies on hand could be beneficial.

In terms of Mitigation this option is pretty ridiculous. And not like Inheritance, - throwing up your hands and saying 'I don't need no stinkin' Mitigation' isn't really a solution, Mr Forebear, - but Mitigation that could actually make Decimation pretty much a non-issue. I'm not talking about fighting peer-level opponents, though getting Hunger Sated from them as well is neat, I'm talking about wars. Even if pretend-wars like those that have become popular in the Human Sphere lately don't count, surely there are enough hell-dimensions around that could benefit from conquest by Hunger! Even the Accursed seems to approve, though I'm starting to suspect that he will like any Mitigation that doesn't have obviously immoral prerequisites.

In other news, the Red Praxis gets us a step closer to the mythical Rainbow Praxis. Further steps might necessitate visiting some shady Cursedland booths, but it's about time for Hunger to take some time off anyway. And no, 'ultra-hard training in the Evening Realm' doesn't count as a vacation.

[ ] The Tears of Winter, the Dog of War, the Evening Sky - Imperishable Night

Fear not the daybreak. All the stars in the sky are your aegis, and the night beneath them your armor still.

-Address of the Supreme Commander, opening of the Horizon War

Progression can overcome anything, with sufficient effort and time. The Maiden has stolen a march on Hunger, striking with complete preparedness cultivated in an infinite span; but Evening's Realm holds its own answer to the extravagances of its rival. Hold back the break of day through a veil of darkness impenetrable; the battlements of midnight which even the dawn sun may only break through in due time.

Expands the Cloak of Evening to encompass the entirety of Hunger's Realm, and causes its defensive parameters to become insurmountably higher for every iota of harm it suffers. The deeper the Maiden penetrates into Hunger's territory, the slower the advance, allowing for easy evacuation of most of the populace and a stable, predictable siege. If all goes as planned there will only be one outcome: for one combatant holds the Lathe of Heaven, while his opponent has reached the culmination of their personal potential.

Nonetheless, the Maiden herself is but a symptom of the greater ill, the interesting times which plague Lord Hunger and which even Evening's foremost protections cannot wholly forestall.

*Protection +s now defend against virtually every conceivable form of attack that beings of the Maiden's power level could initiate
*Protection +s granted by Evening Sky Advancements defend the entirety of Hunger's realm regardless of volume or quantity of inhabitants
*+2000 and +.2 ISH to Protection for every 1/8th of the Cloak of Sky that is removed due to damage, with the number of additional Protection +s doubling, and the ISH additionally increasing by +.05, for each further eighth.

*Synergy: Gilded Cage - The splendor of evening is without peer. +++++Quality of Life for those in Hunger's Realm as the Realm of Evening is instantiated almost completely over the physical and Astral planes. Hunger estimates ~90% of the Sphere will survive the Maiden's initial onslaught and can be safely evacuated into the interior territories. +++Letrizia, ++Aeira

He is not sure how far the Maiden can penetrate before her rate of progress slows perceptibly, but would be shocked if she managed to take more than 2/3rds of the territory in any reasonable timeframe.

*Synergy: The Tears of Winter - The chill of night which pervades inescapably. The deleterious effects of November Sky are extended to apply to all enemies within range of the Cloak, and strike through all forms of defense to inflict proportional debilitation. Treat Hunger as at least a peer-level opponent of any enemy for purposes of calculating November Sky's effects; and if its numerical parameters would be too insignificant to at least substantially inconvenience a given enemy, increase them until they do. Against targets associated with sun, light, warmth, fire, or order, double such penalties after all other modifiers. -Aobaru.

Greater contrast between the cold without and the bounteous comfort within improves Quality of Life by an additional ++. Even should they eventually perish, at least the peoples of Hunger's Realm will be rhapsodically content and filled with joy until they do. +Adorie.

*Synergy: The Dog of War - At the center and seat of Hunger's power sits his ultimate forbidding, the Hyper-Dimensional fortress Novakhron whose flesh is the stuff of unbound infinities. Within the corridors of its eternal labyrinth reside entire continuums of lesser realities, of ontologies mundane or even slightly less magical sheltering beneath its illimitable aegis. The tribute of these uncountable realms accrues to Hunger as power: +Progression, +800 All Stats, and +.5 Stage Apocryphal Mitigation. ++Accursed Favor.

You may choose to dispense with the Apocryphal Mitigation and corresponding Accursed Favor to instead receive +100,000 All Stats, +1000% All Stats, +5 Rank and +0.3 ISH to all abilities while wielding Hyper Novakhron in combat. This is not very efficient but the enormous boost to combat-type actions may be helpful imminently.

Imperishable Night represents the future, the power to protect, enjoyment of life in the face of adversity, the act of procrastination, the path of rulership as opposed to conquest, Hunger's identity as Sovereign of the Human Sphere, and the fruits of labor well-deserved. Let us hope it offers might enough to defend those indulgences it grants.

Arete generated from this point forward will directly improve outcomes for Hunger's populace, regardless of his victory or defeat.

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List of effects:
* Protection: Yes; even against that
* not just personal Protection, the Cloak shields Hunger's whole kingdom, regardless of its size
* Hunger says that the Maiden likely won't get further than 2/3rds of our territory anytime soon, which in terms of numbers means... around 62000 PROT and +1.25 ISH?
* +++++++QoL for the populace; rebellion? what's that?
* while our peeps chill out, the Maiden gets chilled in a much less pleasant way; Adorie's insatiable lust hunger for puns strikes again!
* +Progression, +800 All stats, +.5 Stage Apocryphal Mitigation, ++Accursed Favor
* alternatively, if we want to do more than taunt the Maiden from behind our impenetrable shields: +100,000 All Stats, +1000% All Stats, +5 Rank and +0.3 ISH while in Hyper Novakhron; still needs a few shounen power-ups before we can take her on, maybe once we reach Hyper 3 Novakhron?
* +++Letrizia, ++Aeira, +Adorie, -Aobaru; can our kids even survive the bland outside reality anymore? at least Aobaru is still holding on

For all that I make fun of the option and have my doubts about the optimistic plans of just procrastinating till the problem resolves itself, this is the only choice that actually makes more than a token effort to save the populace. And succeeds wildly, at that! That's not a small thing when our own Geas task success hinges on the existence of the Human Sphere.

It offers ridiculous amounts of universal Protection, in terms of both quantity and ISH +s. I don't really believe the Maiden can get past this no matter how hard she tries, since Hunger won't be twiddling his thumbs and is likely going to improve his defenses far faster than she can elevate her own offensive abilities. Since the Maiden can't defeat us, that means we win by definition, right?

Well, not quite. The Maiden on her own might not be a problem anymore, but this pretty much paints a giant target on us and sings 'nyeh, nyeh, can't touch this' to Apocryphal. I'm sure you can imagine her reaction, Mitigated by a half-Stage as it will be. Still, the Realm of Evening is still available to Hunger and he can continue to challenge monsters and get further advancements. With a +Progression and the newly improved survivability he might even start attempting more dangerous challenges! The trouble with the approach is that the Maiden will be still present and ready to buff and support the new threats from Apocrypha, a natural consequence of pushing off your problems till later.

Of course we could trade in Apo Mitigation and Accursed Favor for some raw power, sacrilegious as the thought might sound. +1 million All Stats, +5 Rank and +0.3 ISH is far from enough to challenge the Maiden properly, since the other options can't do that either, but at least she won't be able to ignore Hunger anymore. Maybe the offered tactic of trapping her within the Shroud will have a chance to work then.

The future Hunger will likely make a habit of bunkering up and training till his enemies aren't a problem anymore. Which isn't all that different from the way we approached Dien, actually, except that we did it without having a way to defend our holdings. So it's more of an improvement on our modus operandi?

All in all, best QoL, most hopeful option, but just not my cup of tea.

---

What a ride it's been, guys. Enjoy this, potentially final, build vote of the quest to determine Hunger's ultimate nature and the probable course of his destiny. Thanks so much to all of our readers and participants for making the quest what it was!

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It has been a pleasure. I couldn't invest as much time and effort as this masterpiece deserved, but whatever the ending is going to be, I have no complaints about the journey.

Except for refusing Justice Blade Lucent Thorn and missing out on Elixir soon afterwards. And sticking our head into that Ork armor. And that time we didn't take Slice Fate. And-

Well. Maybe I've got a few regrets. But that's part of what makes questing fun.