A Simple Transaction I
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OctarineShrike
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Our companions can theoretically resurrect us if we lose. recall if you will Companions of the King's Resurrection Ritual? Even if we lose that does not mean Hunger necessarily dies with Blood Halo.
[Companions of the King] - A hero out of myth deserves a company of legends, but what foremost company could withstand the presence the Forebear's presence itself? No mere shadow these; not his callously-refracted light, but true champions of power everlasting - for a King must have his Knights.
Requires Undying Vanguard, which can be purchased for 5 Arete and 0 picks. The character may ignore the other requirements for this Advancement during this experience spending point. You may designate up to five companions each of which is treated as possessing active Rank no lower than [Your Rank - 1]. This includes your base Rank as well as any permanent external modifiers to general Rank. Once designated, a companion cannot be replaced until they are slain beyond the possibility of recovery; take care that you do not raise up a Mordred or Lancelot.
So long as you are accompanied by a given anointed companion, your teamwork is effortless and masterful; you both receive +10% All Stats. The exploits of your companions redound on your own mythic history; receive +20% Rank gain for each companion anointed, so long as they are either directly assisting you or participating in tasks of legendary import. These effects can both stack. Finally, so long as even one companion is alive, you can always be revived from death via an incredibly difficult ritual.
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This is true but...wouldn't a Companions of the King gambit benefit the most also from Inheritance? Since our Rank determines their minimum Rank, wouldn't making it infinite boost them the most?
OctarineShrike
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I asked about it in Discord apparently @Aabcehmu got it from somewhere that Inheritance doesn't apply to Companions of the King.
Fayhem
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The winning strategy with Imperishable Night is the same one that Muhammed Ali used to beat George Foreman: rope-a-dope. November Sky will be guaranteed to weaken the Maiden the whole time she's in our realm, and once we confront her directly then Sanctum will be applying to her further with every exchange, and the defense bonuses from Imperishable Night mean that we can endure a larger number of exchanges than either of the other options.
Basically, the idea with Imperishable Night is that the Maiden will start stronger than us, but we'll have the endurance and the automatic attritional effects to fight her until she's weaker than us instead, and then we win. And that's without even factoring in the bonuses to Progression.
Zampano
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Sanctum only applies within 3 meters of Hunger if we take Imperishable Night.
Consider, alternatively, that Blood Halo allows the Hunger Echoes to continuously swarm the Maiden, who has just undergone infinity days of training montage without any sleep or true rest.
Anyway, just to make sure we are on the same page, lets go over how much we get from Evening defense as layer get stripped. We have 56 Prot and 180% buff, so with additional 800 so that's about 1500 prot. So:
8/8: 1500, +0
7/8: 4560, +0.2
6/8: 11000, +0.45
5/8: 23800, +0.75
4/8: 49000, +1.1
3/8: 100500, +1.5
2/8: 202960, +2.95
1/8: 407760, +3.45
Or something like that
So it does makes us basically invincible. Like, assuming we have 1.9 base then adding other stuff we'd actually get close to ish 6 defense in the final stretch, final stretch still meaning multiple star systems and thats before we use Space.
8/8: 1500, +0
7/8: 4560, +0.2
6/8: 11000, +0.45
5/8: 23800, +0.75
4/8: 49000, +1.1
3/8: 100500, +1.5
2/8: 202960, +2.95
1/8: 407760, +3.45
Or something like that
So it does makes us basically invincible. Like, assuming we have 1.9 base then adding other stuff we'd actually get close to ish 6 defense in the final stretch, final stretch still meaning multiple star systems and thats before we use Space.
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Your math for the ISH bonus is wrong: you go from +1.5 for 3/8 to +2.95 for 2/8 when it should be +1.95.
Also we've been explicitly been told that none of the options guarantee victory:
and Imperishable Night explicitly warns us about it possibly not offering enough power, so it clearly doesn't make us invincible against an opponent of the Maiden caliber...
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Oh yeah, 2.45. I knew something was wrong with math, but was too lazy to look into it myself. Still, it casually breaks 5 with other effects at max, so it does provide enough protection for now, plus Apo mitigation which is the only real vector of danger. And afterwards flat 2.5 ish on defense is just kinda good.
I still don't like the specific gameplay since passivity against Apo and Decimator is all kinds of trash, but at some point raw fuck off invincibility for entire sector of galaxy becomes a real selling point.
Zampano
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Time to work on the Praxis means improved Seal of Ruin, Imprisoner's refinement, etc.
I do think that intelligent tactics are probably easier to write for this option, but they will be less innovative / interesting to read imo
Also, don't forget that we still have Closing The Fist, so we can actually combine with our allies for all sorts of cool effects. For example, lets take Inheritance - we can CtF with Letrizia and gain Sharpbright, so you would have ability that uses your Rank to boost your competence with infinite Rank, which is obviously good. Then you combine hypercompetence with infinite willpower to gain hyper focus and then use that to gain basically perfect control over fate in entropic direction.
Or you could use the fact that Sharpbright is diametric opposite of Ruin - improving oneself vs bringing ruin to others - to invert it and make it into ability that brings arbitrary Ruin to Hunger itself, basically acting as souped up Fault Defeating Stance while providing a great deal of defense as enemy attacks not only need to overpower Ruin, but also have wounds they do overpower Ruin as well.
Or with Blood we could combine with Adorie to supercharge Aobaru as our omega champion, or with Night we combine with Gisena for super research and adding Nullity to our defense. Or we could just CtF Nova for stats and stuff. A lot of possibilities.
Like, +2.5ish to defense is just plain good. Especially if we can get some defense focused refinements and stuff to get the number higher, or find a way to translate protection to other stats - although that was always why protection was worthless as a stat, that and redundancy with Ruin.
Or you could use the fact that Sharpbright is diametric opposite of Ruin - improving oneself vs bringing ruin to others - to invert it and make it into ability that brings arbitrary Ruin to Hunger itself, basically acting as souped up Fault Defeating Stance while providing a great deal of defense as enemy attacks not only need to overpower Ruin, but also have wounds they do overpower Ruin as well.
Or with Blood we could combine with Adorie to supercharge Aobaru as our omega champion, or with Night we combine with Gisena for super research and adding Nullity to our defense. Or we could just CtF Nova for stats and stuff. A lot of possibilities.
Good question. I remember 80% floating around, but I'm not sure if that was 80% left or 80% destroyed.
I mean, I went from "I dislike this option and numbers on it are bad" to "I dislike this option but it's got some good numbers". So I don't fully hate it anymore.
Like, +2.5ish to defense is just plain good. Especially if we can get some defense focused refinements and stuff to get the number higher, or find a way to translate protection to other stats - although that was always why protection was worthless as a stat, that and redundancy with Ruin.
Fayhem
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Yep. Hence why I said "once we confront her directly."
I'm profoundly doubtful that a being of the Maiden's level still finds any value in sleep as anything besides perhaps an affectation of humanity, or that a continuous swarm will be experienced as anything much more than chaff. The Echoes can be relevant with Blood Halo of course, but they'd be more useful as a unified and cohesive force than as guerillas trying to wear down a tireless being; the Blood Halo effect explicitly scales with how cohesive the affected force is. I don't think we're going to literally make her sword arm get tired without applying more conceptual effects like Sanctum and/or November Sky.
The idea of a way to translate Prot into other stats is interesting. Maybe we could come up with something like a Siphoning Defense, so that every time we get hit a fraction of the power we're tanking gets absorbed into our own stats.
Zampano
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I actually calculated +510,000 PROT and +3 ISH(PROT) if the Maiden manages to penetrate all the way to the throne room, just from Cloak ablation.
Of course, if that happens then she has a reason that Prot is irrelevant, even at ISH: YES
Of course, if that happens then she has a reason that Prot is irrelevant, even at ISH: YES
Fayhem
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Imperishable Night explicitly guarantees that Prot will always be relevant against the Maiden, though:
I also want to highlight that we'll be nerfing all the Maiden's Attributes and abilities by 80% with November Sky:
At least peer-level opponent means that we're guaranteed to get the Dampen effect from November Sky:
And the Maiden got the Realm of Daylight, so she qualifies for the special synergy enhancement doubling the penalty from Dampen.
[X] The Tears of Winter, the Dog of War, the Evening Sky - Imperishable Night
Alright, I have to do it for the memes.
Just imagine being the Maiden. You spent infinite amount training for this. You have eyes and yet you can't sleep. You are tired, cranky, revenge driven and ready to kick some Tyrant ass. You blast out after infinite amount of effort, have this cool meta-breaking entrance and you are all fired up to finally fucking do something.
And then Hunger just walks away.
So you are left behind banging on endless night while everyone else is having time of their lives on endless rave. And you can't do shit because you have already maxed out, so you have to like go around beg other people to ruin our party for you or wait for Apo buffs, all the while everyone else is having fun and making Maiden jokes while can't even sleep.
Alright, I have to do it for the memes.
Just imagine being the Maiden. You spent infinite amount training for this. You have eyes and yet you can't sleep. You are tired, cranky, revenge driven and ready to kick some Tyrant ass. You blast out after infinite amount of effort, have this cool meta-breaking entrance and you are all fired up to finally fucking do something.
And then Hunger just walks away.
So you are left behind banging on endless night while everyone else is having time of their lives on endless rave. And you can't do shit because you have already maxed out, so you have to like go around beg other people to ruin our party for you or wait for Apo buffs, all the while everyone else is having fun and making Maiden jokes while can't even sleep.
Note that this is additive with other % mods. So if she is rocking combination of Graces that gives her +1000% to All Stats, which is very likely, this would drop it down to +920%. It's basically only good against foes that rely on raw stats and no modifiers.
...It would be better than that, because it has a guarantee to increase the debuff until it actually matters if it otherwise wouldn't. But yes, the Maiden probably has enough modifiers to make that clause necessary.
Edit: cut the quote down to just the relevant paragraph.
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Fayhem
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Ugh, that's so confusing. If a enemy's stats get reduced by 80% after all other modifiers are applied, that should intuitively reduce it to 20% of that total value, rather than a varying percentage range of reduction based on how enhanced relative to their own base stats they were before getting nerfed.
Weirdly, it also makes having incredibly high base stats much worse for an opponent than having low base stats that were multiplied to be incredibly high. Like, someone who had base stats of 1000 would get nerfed to 200, but someone who had base stats of 100 that were multiplied by 1000% would only get nerfed to 920. Very counter-intuitive to me. Is this WoQM somewhere?
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Oh man, I was so distracted by personal stuff I didn't even notice this had updated this week! How embarrassing. Anyway, let me fulfill my last obligation before analyzing the options more.
[X] formalAI
[X] formalAI
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You do realize she doesn't need to step within 3 meters of us to confront us, right? She can just use ranged attacks. The Maiden isn't stupid, she isn't going to voluntarily enter our Sanctum unless we force her to and she isn't going to stay there once we managed that unless we force her to. That's all a lot easier to do if we have Inheritance which gives us a Sanctum which span the entirety of our kingdoms combined with Infinite Rank or Blood Halo which gives us +1 ISH to all offensive actions and maxed out mastery of the Domain of Battles.
Also, general reminder to everyone that the Maiden is a near-peer opponent even if we pick Inheritance or Blood Halo, so expect her to have some truly disgusting and bullshit OP abilities nearly on par with our own abilities after adding the benefits of one of those two options. Don't underestimate the Maiden.
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I don't think there is a specific cite, but that's just how mods worked so far. For example, we have stuff like Uttermost which applies -% to our own abilities and its additive with +%.
But as beowolf said, this ability is supposed to auto-scale until is relevant so it won't be actually useless, just practically so.
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lmao
Not gonna lie, I don't like the fact that everything we interact with is doomed, even if takes a gajillion years or whatever. Considering our level of power, turning universes into infinite paradise realms should be quite doable, but the diference between an infinite paradise and a paradise that lasts a vigintillion eons is still infinity.
Wait, if the Haliel ending requires this, is this the only Hunger that would make to High Cursebearer? If so, goddamn. Forebearer was swole.
While it is nice to finally have a definitive answer to our woes of having relevant allies to our level and stuff, this might be a bit too late for that. We have kind of been defined by our own personal strenght at this point, imo.
Fuck, this is just insanely cool. Best argument for Blood Halo.
Second best argument for Blood Halo.
Just do what we've been going all this time, it certainly has never failed us! Please ignore the piles of dead Arete miners.
Charming.
In a sense, this is the most selfless option and the one that most affirms Hunger's fundamental benevolence. I would probably vote for this if not for the irresistible allure of the Haliel Route. Shit, I might have voted for this anyway simply becuase I'm a softy. I suppose it matters little now though.