Remove ads

[Continuation] Schwarz-Rot-Gold: An Interwar Germany Quest

Voting is open
Reader mode
AllenWalker said:
Okay i am going to Adress why giving young untested politicians and young and fresh parties a chance is a horrible idea in detail, don't have the time at the moment
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The major parties will still be somewhat dominant, their advantages in funding, membership and name recognition are hard to overcome. Political advertising is expensive and limited in this time period, which means the voters will likely choose the parties they are more familiar with than voting for some random person or party.

Also, this:
Sturmi said:
Minority parties won't play kingmaker as I have described because unless they can martial up the strength in single districts, in which case as I have said they frankly deserve to win that district since except for the right and far right parties, we're probably second or third choice between SPD and Zentrum on their ballots.

For the sake of not having to awkwardly futz around on explaining the Australian System more, everyone please welcome Ken the Voting Dingo!




Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
Okay, to wrangle with the most important of all distinctions.

Weimar germany isn´t australia. It´s not a modern western democracy with a population that has always lived in prosperity and under a democracy.

It´s a republic that´s barely holding onto the straws that just went through a civil with a population non familiar with democracy who doesn´t see it as the inherently right system. It´s a society that has no experience on how to properly deal with demagouges and populists, it´s a society that gave birth to one of the most brutal and destructive regimes in human history and did so willingly with celebrations.

You speak of giving upstart politicians in the face of the old guard a chance as if that was a good thing. Let me show you the most successfull of those upstart politicians otl.
Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia

The people aren´t going to give the nice young politicians who promote democracy a vote, no they will vote for demagouge and populists, for who they have no experience how to deal with and we know to what ruin that leads to. Populists and demagouges must not be given a voice, no matter the cost.

Next the 5% party hurdle. Yes it doesn´t stop people from becoming radicals, it does however force the extremists into existing party structures, where they will naturally be obstructed by the old guard for their risky rhetorik. Otl every single party was given a voice, otl every single party could openly make itself known within the parliament. This allowed hitler to reach an incredible amount of people he otherwise would probably never have reached. This must be avoided under all circumstances.

The problem isn´t that minority parties become kinmakers, the problem is that they become known by their presence in the Reichstag in the first place. This can not be allowed to happen.

Weimar Germany isn´t Australia and an openly free and democratic system will only be exploited by those that would see german democracy dead and they would succeed. This happened otl.
 
Last edited:
AllenWalker said:
Okay, to wrangle with the most important of all distinctions.

Weimar germany isn´t australia. It´s not a modern western democracy with a population that has always lived in prosperity and under a democracy.

It´s a republic that´s barely holding onto the straws that just went through a civil with a population non familiar with democracy who doesn´t see it as the inherently right system. It´s a society that has no experience on how to properly deal with demagouges and populists, it´s a society that gave birth to one of the most brutal and destructive regimes in human history and did so willingly with celebrations.

You speak of giving upstart politicians in the face of the old guard a chance as if that was a good thing. Let me show you the most successfull of those upstart politicians otl.
Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia

The people aren´t going to give the nice young politicians who promote democracy a vote, no they will vote for demagouge and populists, for who they have no experience how to deal with and we know to what ruin that leads to. Populists and demagouges must not be given a voice, no matter the cost.

Next the 5% party hurdle. Yes it doesn´t stop people from becoming radicals, it does however force the extremists into existing party structures, where they will naturally be obstructed by the old guard for their risky rhetorik. Otl every single party was given a voice, otl every single party could openly make itself known within the parliament. This allowed hitler to reach an incredible amount of people he otherwise would probably never have reached. This must be avoided under all circumstances.

The problem isn´t that minority parties become kinmakers, the problem is that they become known by their presence in the Reichstag in the first place. This can not be allowed to happen.

Weimar Germany isn´t Australia and an openly free and democratic system will only be exploited by those that would see german democracy dead and they would succeed. This happened otl.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
One doesn't have to be a modern mature democracy to implement a sensible voting system. For all you say about forcing far right radicals into existing party structures and hence being constrained by the old guard of the parties, this is directly contravened by your primary example. Franz von Papen, one of the key individuals in convincing Hindenburg to appoint Hitler Chancellor revolved his arguments around being able to control that upstart Hitler. The industrialists and for the most part old money of society and the old nobility all quickly jumped on to Hitler's party train as the DNVP self destructed.

Forcing the far right into the established parties doesn't seriously constrain them. In making the argument that every party makes itself known in the Reichstag, until 1929 the Nazis were a tiny fringe party, and under the proposed modified Weimar System they would still be able to win in the single districts regardless of the 5% benchmark to similar effects for visibility.
 
Sturmi said:
. For all you say about forcing far right radicals into existing party structures and hence being constrained by the old guard of the parties, this is directly contravened by your primary example. Franz von Papen, one of the key individuals in convincing Hindenburg to appoint Hitler Chancellor revolved his arguments around being able to control that upstart Hitler. The industrialists and for the most part old money of society and the old nobility all quickly jumped on to Hitler's party train as the DNVP self destructed.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
the only reason why von papen and the industrialists even knew that hitler was a thing was because the small party system gave him a voice which enabled his success.
Sturmi said:
One doesn't have to be a modern mature democracy to implement a sensible voting system
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
the proposed voting system is more or less the one of the modern german republic, which has shown to be far more resistant to populists and radical politicians than modern australia.
Sturmi said:
, until 1929 the Nazis were a tiny fringe party, and under the proposed modified Weimar System they would still be able to win in the single districts regardless of the 5% benchmark to similar effects for visibility.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
a tiny fringe party that had a voice thanks to it´s presence in the parliament. A voice that was heard by those in the districts that he would later win in
 
AllenWalker said:
the only reason why von papen and the industrialists even knew that hitler was a thing was because the small party system gave him a voice which enabled his success.

the proposed voting system is more or less the one of the modern german republic, which has shown to be far more resistant to populists and radical politicians than modern australia.

a tiny fringe party that had a voice thanks to it´s presence in the parliament. A voice that was heard by those in the districts that he would later win in
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You keep saying that the Weimar system gives the small radicals a voice, but I ask again how does the Weimar modified system act in preventing this when there will still be single member districts since as you said this is basically the modern German Electoral system? The 5% bottom is only for the national party votes, the Nazis or something Nazi adjacent could still easily win in a random rural district where the DNVP has faltered and achieve similar results as they did prior to 1929. I'm not saying the Australian system is much better in preventing this, but how is the modified Weimar system going to prevent this the way you're implying it will?

I do not really wish to discuss modern politics in this regard but I would like to point out the sudden rise of the AfD in modern German politics.
 
Sturmi said:
I do not really wish to discuss modern politics in this regard but I would like to point out the sudden rise of the AfD in modern German politics.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
A party that every other major party openly declared that they wouldn´t be cooperating with, which makes them in the coalition depended german system irrelvant which means they didn´t manage to achieve much of anything in the six years of it´s existence which means it´s growth stalled and it´s inaction and infighting means they are losing votes, in other words an irrelevant far right party that is getting strangled in it´s cradle, which means the german systems is working as intended, unlike what happened in the australian system with radical politicans.
Sturmi said:
You keep saying that the Weimar system gives the small radicals a voice, but I ask again how does the Weimar modified system act in preventing this when there will still be single member districts since as you said this is basically the modern German Electoral system? The 5% bottom is only for the national party votes, the Nazis could still easily win in a random rural district where the DNVP has faltered and achieve similar results as they did prior to 1929. I'm not saying the Australian system is much better in preventing this, but how is the modified Weimar system going to prevent this the way you're implying it will?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Not impossible no, but it is going to make things more complicate for the party in question, which is something we want
 
AllenWalker said:
A party that every other major party openly declared that they wouldn´t be cooperating with, which makes them in the coalition depended german system irrelvant which means they didn´t manage to achieve much of anything in the six years of it´s existence which means it´s growth stalled and it´s inaction and infighting means they are losing votes, in other words an irrelevant far right party that is getting strangled in it´s cradle, in other words the german systems working as intended, unlike what happened in the australian system with radical politicans.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

What do you mean the system is working as intended when the thing that strangled the party had nothing to do with it lmao. The 5% thingy didn't do anything here, what are you on about.
 
Adronio said:
What do you mean the system is working as intended when the thing that strangled the party had nothing to do with it lmao. The 5% thingy didn't do anything here, what are you on about.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
on the AFD´s rise? No. Making it impossible to become more relevant because the 5% rule means that votes are funneled into the major parties which refuse to work with them and there being no other fringe parties to allie with? Yes.
 
Before rancor rises, please don't discuss current German politics and the modern German far-right further in this thread. There is a separate forum for that.
 
AllenWalker said:
on the AFD´s rise? No. Making it impossible to become more relevant because the 5% rule means that votes are funneled into the major parties which refuse to work with them and there being no other fringe parties to allie with? Yes.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The Australian system still funnels votes into the major parties, and unless I've misread thing sone of your major points was that the 5% system was supposed to keep them out of the Reichstag, which it clearly didn't do in this case. The modified Weimar system does not at all stop the Nazis from building a coalition if they rise as they did historically, which the 5% system does not seem to be able to stop as well as you think l, and after they are in it doesn't stop them anymore then the Australian system imo. Rather, the 5% system is more likely to funnel people into more organized fringe groups, not towards the center, which leads to OTL like situations aswell.
 
AllenWalker said:
A party that every other major party openly declared that they wouldn´t be cooperating with, which makes them in the coalition depended german system irrelvant which means they didn´t manage to achieve much of anything in the six years of it´s existence which means it´s growth stalled and it´s inaction and infighting means they are losing votes, in other words an irrelevant far right party that is getting strangled in it´s cradle, which means the german systems is working as intended, unlike what happened in the australian system with radical politicans.

Not impossible no, but it is going to make things more complicate for the party in question, which is something we want
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Basically what Adronio said. The more obvious analogue to the AfD in Australian politics is Katter's Australian Party which currently has... 1 seat. And again, the AfD being shut out of governance doesn't have anything to do with the voting system for the most part.

What the 5% threshold complicates is breaking out from being basically a regional party to a national party, which is not what you were arguing before. You were arguing that minor parties like the German Social Party getting into the Reichstag at all gave them a soapbox, which I then argued was not prevented by the Weimar Modified System. Now you are arguing that it "makes things more complicated for the party in question" which I can only presume is referring to breaking out into national politics. I have already outlined how the Australian System also has a meaningful moderating effect that I find preferable to the cutoff of the 5% threshold and regardless your argument is moving the goalpost.

Edit: Sorry didn't see the mouli post before posting, will clam up on that now.
 
Last edited:
Adronio said:
The modified Weimar system does not at all stop the Nazis from building a coalition if they rise as they did historically, which the 5% system does not seem to be able to stop as well as you think l, and after they are in it doesn't stop them anymore then the Australian system imo. Rather, the 5% system is more likely to funnel people into more organized fringe groups, not towards the center, which leads to OTL like situations aswell.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
And how do the nazis going to get a coalition of significant size if the communists hate them and the SPD and Zentrum do not work together with them? Even otl the Nazis needed the Zentrum to form a large enough majority for the government and it needed fringe groups below that. Something I´m going to go into higher detail below.
Sturmi said:
What the 5% Threshold complicates is breaking out from being basically a regional party to a national party, which is not what you were arguing before. You were arguing that minor parties like the German Social Party getting into the Reichstag at all gave them a soapbox, which I then argued was not prevented by the Weimar Modified System. Now you are arguing that it "makes things more complicated for the party in question" which I can only presume is referring to breaking out into national politics. I have already outlined how the Australian System also has a meaningful moderating effect that I find preferable to the cutoff of the 5% threshold and regardless your argument is moving the goalpost.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It took 70 years for another far right party to come close to relevancy, i call that good preventation. Anyway, we shouldn´t talk about modern german politics anymore

Not really, though i apologise if the impression arose.
What i meant was that it makes it more difficult for the far right party to get the national reach and attention the Reichstags brings. It is possible, yes, but it makes things more difficult. The 5% system has other affects as well, namely with fringe groups less likely to be relevant, even if that isn´t entirely impossible for them to break out still, it means automaticly more votes are funneled into the larger traditional parties that are ensured to be over 5%. It also means that for larger parties, like say a nazi party that managed to cross the 5% cutoff, to just find allies on the many fringe group parties based around single issue matters, which can be easily fullfilled by a larger party in exchange for general cooperation. Larger parties have more issues that may come into conflict with any new party, automaticly making the possibility of a coalition more complicated and thus it is more likely that the party in question will be shut out of governance.

All in all it doesn´t make a nazi rise or an analouge impossible, but it makes it in my opinion, far harder than under the Australian system
 
Last edited:
AllenWalker said:
And how do the nazis going to get a coalition of significant size if the communists hate them and the SPD and Zentrum do not work together with them? Even otl the Nazis needed the Zentrum to form a large enough majority for the government and it needed fringe groups below that. Something I´m going to go into higher detail below.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That doesn't change with the Australian system though, and has all to do with how we handle the coalition. And for the below points, disagree with the ultimate conclusion. The simple fact is that people are not going to be happy to be funneled into the mainstream parties, and they will radicalize more. Then suddenly blop, the Nazis make a big campaign, manage to hurdle over the 5% thingy and they're in the map. Guess where all those disgruntled Far Right people who were forced into voting for the DVNP or whatever? They'll take the opportunity to vote the Nazis the next election, because they want their voice heard and their pissed enough about it to vote anti establishment.
 
Last edited:
AllenWalker said:
And how do the nazis going to get a coalition of significant size if the communists hate them and the SPD and Zentrum do not work together with them? Even otl the Nazis needed the Zentrum to form a large enough majority for the government and it needed fringe groups below that. Something I´m going to go into higher detail below.

Not really, though i apologise if the impression arose.
What i meant was that it makes it more difficult for the far right party to get the national reach and attention the Reichstags brings. It is possible, yes, but it makes things more difficult. The 5% system has other affects as well, namely with fringe groups less likely to be relevant, even if that isn´t entirely impossible for them to break out still, it means automaticly more votes are funneled into the larger traditional parties that are ensured to be over 5%. It also means that for larger parties, like say a nazi party that managed to cross the 5% cutoff, to just find allies on the many fringe group parties based around single issue matters, which can be easily fullfilled by a larger party in exchange for general cooperation. Larger parties have more issues that may come into conflict with any new party, automaticly making the possibility of a coalition more complicated and thus it is more likely that the party in question will be shut out of governance.

All in all it doesn´t make a nazi rise or an analouge impossible, but it makes it in my opinion, far harder than under the Australian system
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is just factually incorrect, and again not related to the voting system. The March 1933 Elections eventually yielded a government consisting of the DNVP and NSDAP. The Zentrum were not involved. I assume you were referring to Zentrum voting for the Enabling Act, but at that point the political battle for Germany had already been lost. The Enabling Act may as well have been a formality at that point considering that there were armed SA troopers in the Reichstag with them during the vote. At that point I can hardly blame Zentrum for folding under the pressure and they certainly did not help the NSDAP form a government.

What you have described regarding coalitions are just the normal issues of building a coalition, basically removed from the voting system entirely. I have already outlined how the Australian system also has a comparable moderating effect in that regard, but otherwise this is just the typical issues of building a coalition.
 
Adronio said:
The simple fact is that people are not going to be happy to be funneled into the mainstream parties, and they will radicalize more.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That has been the case in germany for over 70 years and the german people haven´t been overly radicalised by it, so I doubt that this in particular leads to greater radicalisation.
Adronio said:
Then suddenly blop, the Nazis make a big campaign, manage to hurdle over the 5% thingy and they're in the map. Guess where all those disgruntled Far Right people who were forced into voting for the DVNP or whatever? They'll take the opportunity to vote the Nazis the next election, because they want their voice heard and their pissed enough about it to vote anti establishment.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
True, it is still possible that the Nazi´s make it even if it would be more difficult for them than otl and once they do, hitlers oratory talent means the nazis are gonna spread through the far right like wildfire, disgruntled or not.
Sturmi said:
I assume you were referring to Zentrum voting for the Enabling Act, but at that point the political battle for Germany had already been lost.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
what i was talking bout, yes and your arguments for why the zentrum wasn´t really at fault there is logically sound

Sturmi said:
What you have described regarding coalitions are just the normal issues of building a coalition, basically removed from the voting system entirely. I have already outlined how the Australian system also has a comparable moderating effect in that regard, but otherwise this is just the typical issues of building a coalition.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
true though all things considered I am still of the opinion that the german system is better, probably cause I´m living under it and I´m on some level biased towards it.

Let´s agree to disagree?
 
Last edited:
AllenWalker said:
That has been the case in germany for over 70 years and the german people haven´t been overly radicalised by it, so I doubt that this in particular leads to greater radicalisation.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I know you probably don't want to discuss this much further, but I feel the need to point out that the reason the Germans aren't radicalized today probably has very little to do with the electoral system, but rather that their experience with both political extremes was really bad and traumatic. This made them shy away, and try to prevent them from becoming attractive again.
 
Last edited:
Mr. Sandman said:
I know you probably don't want to discuss this much further, but I feel the need to point out that the reason the Germans aren't radicalized today probably has very little to do with the electoral system, but rather that their experience with both political extremes was really bad and traumatic.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
well, ehish. Yes germany has far more safeguards against political extremism than just the voting system, but i was pointing out that even multiple generations after ww2 and nazi rule, this system hasn´t lead to much radicalisation of the general german people. There may be other factors to it, as you correctly point out, but I think it is still a sound indication that the 5% cut off line isn´t as bad a radicalizer as some people here seem to think
 
Personally I'm less concerned about the long term radicalization and more concerned with the far right attempting to bomb the Reichstag next turn (not literally that, but much unrest from them would be extremely bad for us considering we really, really can't afford to deal with it.) the Weimar modified is noted as angering the far right more then anything else we are doing.
 
Adronio said:
Personally I'm less concerned about the long term radicalization and more concerned with the far right attempting to bomb the Reichstag next turn (not literally that, but much unrest from them would be extremely bad for us considering we really, really can't afford to deal with it.)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
ironically if this literally was to happen, it would be a great boon for us, as the otl Reichstagsfire ( a roughly equivalent event) lead to political collapse of the far left in germany (if they now did it or not). We could milk such an event deliciously to push further actions against the far right through
 
Maybe a basic observation, but it seems like @mouli is throwing us a bone here. All of these proposals seem to deal with the Weimar's lack off or minimalist thresholds.
 
AllenWalker said:
There may be other factors to it, as you correctly point out, but I think it is still a sound indication that the 5% cut off line isn´t as bad a radicalizer as some people here seem to think
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I don't think it is a radicalizer, just that it probably only kicks the can further down the road. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, but doesn't outweigh the fact the Australian system is far more fair, doesn't piss off important people and usually shifts votes to center parties. We've already thrown a bone at Zentrum at the expense of the right, I don't think doing so again is worth it.
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Voting is open
Remove ads
Back
Top