Welcome aboard!I'm not?
... oh, I need to vote for it as a whole, as well as its constituent parts. Got it. This is my first SV quest, so I'm not used to how the tally mechanics work over here.
[Continuation] Schwarz-Rot-Gold: An Interwar Germany Quest
- Thread starter mouli
- Start date
- Alt. History
The Cabinet
mouli
Terrible QM
- Location
- United States
The Cabinet
As of January 1921
As of January 1921
See the following informational for the parties' status and the status of the coalition
Reichskanzler and Reichsprasident: Friedrich Ebert (SPD): An election will have to be called by the end of 1921 for the Presidency
Vice-Chancellor: Matthias Erzberger (Zentrum): An election will have to be called by the end of 1921 for the Chancellery if Ebert holds the Presidency
- Treasury Section
- Justice Section
- Interior Section
- Foreign Section
- Defense Section
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I sense that there might be a slight problem here.
Us: we need to break the paramilitaries, bring the army to heel and erode the privileges of the Junkers.
The Defense Ministry:
Hmm, that's meaty.
My commentary:
Treasury Section
Goals: Tax reform, Tax rationalization, the Reichsbahn.
I'm happy with the first two and neutral to mildly disapproving of the third.
However, nationalizing the Railroads and placing them under civilian gov control gives it a good check against the Military. Hard to organize if the railroads don't answer to private concerns (i.e. money) or the military itself.
Justice Section
Reichsministerium der Justiz (Justice): Eugen Schiffer (DDP)
Goals: Substantial civil service reform and the use of the Ministry of Justice as a tool to combat irregularities in law enforcement in the various states of Germany. The preservation of an independent court system and the defense of the powers of the judiciary to prevent further instability. The preservation of private property and the minimization of nationalization, socialization of property and other left-SPD cause celebres.
Whew, this is a lot to unpack. The devil will be in the details here for each of these goals. I can get behind most of them as making sense on the surface, but these goals are too broad at the moment to do so. Put a pin in this for now, call me neutral.
Interior Section
Reichsministerium für Ernährung (Food): Robert Schmidt (SPD)
Food is too busy to have long term goals right now, check again later. I guess we will put a pin in land and farm reform for the moment.
Reichsministerium des Innern (Interior): Erich Koch-Weser (DDP)
The greatest of the ministers here is Erich Koch-Weser in the Interior Ministry, from where federal police, the Special Branch and the domestic intelligence service are run – it is the Interior Ministry that will be fighting subversion, and the current Minister has the left far more than the right in his sights.
Y'know, short term I kind of agree with the man. The KPD underground is far more virulent and organized right now than the Right and we need folks to feel safe and secure, not paranoid about bombs, assassinations, sabotage and the like. Long term we need to look at eroding this guys power-base and installing a compromise candidate, possibly Zentrum or perhaps an independent. We need someone objective here who can provide look at all of Germany's political parties and militias and say "None of you are without Sin" and get to work on cracking down on mischief.
Reichsverkehrsministerium (Transport): Johannes Bell (Zentrum)
Wants the railroads, which I'm inclined to give them.
Reichsministerium für Arbeit (Labour): Alexander Schlicke (SPD)
Priority goes to backing Labour on reform. Get as many of the promised reforms out as possible. To retain reform and to mollify a tired and cynical populace.
Foreign Ministry
Auswärtiges Amt (Foreign Office): Walther Rathenau (DDP/Independent)
Defense Ministry
Reichswehrministerium (Defence): Otto Gessler (DDP)
General Staff Command: Hans von Seeckt (Army), Paul von Hindenburg (Army)
Priorities/Agenda: The Minister of Defense sees his role as cooperating with the general staff in arranging the rebuilding of the army along modern lines, the cultivation of the Black Reichswehr as a reserve force, and the preservation of the independence of the General Staff. In the Minister's eyes, this takes precedence over reining in the army due to the army's power and the weak state of German defense in this time of instability. The army itself is bent on the preservation of its traditional powers as a state-within-a-state, and General Hans von Seeckt has impressed the need for that upon the Minister. We can expect substantial opposition to any erosion of the army's privileges more than we already have. Unless we relieve Gessler, which has its own issues.
This is going to take years to address. Slowly chipping away at the foundations of an institutional giant.
My commentary:
Treasury Section
Goals: Tax reform, Tax rationalization, the Reichsbahn.
I'm happy with the first two and neutral to mildly disapproving of the third.
However, nationalizing the Railroads and placing them under civilian gov control gives it a good check against the Military. Hard to organize if the railroads don't answer to private concerns (i.e. money) or the military itself.
Justice Section
Reichsministerium der Justiz (Justice): Eugen Schiffer (DDP)
Goals: Substantial civil service reform and the use of the Ministry of Justice as a tool to combat irregularities in law enforcement in the various states of Germany. The preservation of an independent court system and the defense of the powers of the judiciary to prevent further instability. The preservation of private property and the minimization of nationalization, socialization of property and other left-SPD cause celebres.
Whew, this is a lot to unpack. The devil will be in the details here for each of these goals. I can get behind most of them as making sense on the surface, but these goals are too broad at the moment to do so. Put a pin in this for now, call me neutral.
Interior Section
Reichsministerium für Ernährung (Food): Robert Schmidt (SPD)
Food is too busy to have long term goals right now, check again later. I guess we will put a pin in land and farm reform for the moment.
Reichsministerium des Innern (Interior): Erich Koch-Weser (DDP)
The greatest of the ministers here is Erich Koch-Weser in the Interior Ministry, from where federal police, the Special Branch and the domestic intelligence service are run – it is the Interior Ministry that will be fighting subversion, and the current Minister has the left far more than the right in his sights.
Y'know, short term I kind of agree with the man. The KPD underground is far more virulent and organized right now than the Right and we need folks to feel safe and secure, not paranoid about bombs, assassinations, sabotage and the like. Long term we need to look at eroding this guys power-base and installing a compromise candidate, possibly Zentrum or perhaps an independent. We need someone objective here who can provide look at all of Germany's political parties and militias and say "None of you are without Sin" and get to work on cracking down on mischief.
Reichsverkehrsministerium (Transport): Johannes Bell (Zentrum)
Wants the railroads, which I'm inclined to give them.
Reichsministerium für Arbeit (Labour): Alexander Schlicke (SPD)
Priority goes to backing Labour on reform. Get as many of the promised reforms out as possible. To retain reform and to mollify a tired and cynical populace.
Foreign Ministry
Auswärtiges Amt (Foreign Office): Walther Rathenau (DDP/Independent)
Hey look, a pragmatist cut from the cloth of Otto von Bismark. I have no issues with this guy, keep him as long as we can till he retires, do what we can to rebuild our international reputation and trade networks.Defense Ministry
Reichswehrministerium (Defence): Otto Gessler (DDP)
General Staff Command: Hans von Seeckt (Army), Paul von Hindenburg (Army)
Priorities/Agenda: The Minister of Defense sees his role as cooperating with the general staff in arranging the rebuilding of the army along modern lines, the cultivation of the Black Reichswehr as a reserve force, and the preservation of the independence of the General Staff. In the Minister's eyes, this takes precedence over reining in the army due to the army's power and the weak state of German defense in this time of instability. The army itself is bent on the preservation of its traditional powers as a state-within-a-state, and General Hans von Seeckt has impressed the need for that upon the Minister. We can expect substantial opposition to any erosion of the army's privileges more than we already have. Unless we relieve Gessler, which has its own issues.
This is going to take years to address. Slowly chipping away at the foundations of an institutional giant.
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- Location
- Singapore
Not as bad as pre ww2 japan but ...yeah is pretty fucked
also I expect zentrum to be more unreasonable but honestly they are being really sensible in what they want.
- Pronouns
- He
tbf being suprisingly reasonable and open for cooperation is like usual modus operandi of german conservatives
Tying us and Zentrum together is definitely the best plan here. We gave them a smack on the hand when we obliterated their challenge, however they aren't malicious or anything. Show them that we are willing to work with them, we agree on several critical issues, most noticably the military and extremism, and we definitely need them and the Bavarian officers in order to combat the Prussian Militarists.
[X] Plan: Zentrum is Bae
I'm all on board for this. It's what I mentioned in the last thread on SB. We break up Prussia and keep the fringe radical parties out of power. The KPD do constitute a threat, but my concern is once their leadership is dead, exiled, and neutered the police won't hit the far right as well. Given the entire civil war that unfolded I don't think they're going to get away with as much as they did in real life, given a lot of them are traitors.
It's amusing that the Triumvirate's attempt to seize power may have broken their own power base.
I'm all on board for this. It's what I mentioned in the last thread on SB. We break up Prussia and keep the fringe radical parties out of power. The KPD do constitute a threat, but my concern is once their leadership is dead, exiled, and neutered the police won't hit the far right as well. Given the entire civil war that unfolded I don't think they're going to get away with as much as they did in real life, given a lot of them are traitors.
It's amusing that the Triumvirate's attempt to seize power may have broken their own power base.
[X] Plan: Zentrum is Bae
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- Location
- UTC+0
- Pronouns
- He/Him/They
Yep, this is why we should have handed over to the communists then. I hope we are more pragmatic from now on, we can't take the most moral and anti-army choice every single time unless we want big trouble. But we do have QM word we won't have a coup the first month, so I still think we should take it. This is a big change we probably won't be able to do for a very long time...
They hate us and know we did it it to put the squeeze on the Triad. A bunch of Poles were just killed in Silesia and I doubt they care it wasn't under our government, they will also never acknowledge their precious miracle at the Vistula was due to our intervention. It is a national consciousness forming event, and they will make sure the Polish population gives us the least credit it possibly can. Our "alliance" of convenience is gone with Warsaw no longer under threat.
[X] PLAN: Vox Populi, vox Dei.
ThatGuyWithIdeas
Treize died for our sins
- Location
- Romania
[X] PLAN: Vox Populi, vox Dei.
Rolen von Keng
Sleeping Green Bear
- Location
- The Wilderness
[X] PLAN: Vox Populi, vox Dei.
- Location
- UTC+0
- Pronouns
- He/Him/They
They are the successors of the Zentrum IIRC, who as of 2021 has the grand total of zero seats and a membership of 600 people. The Zentrum aren't just the Catholics, it is just that they are the dominant part of their party politics and thus have outsized influence.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
Plus, some members of our own gov are probably racist towards them. Half of us don't want to be friends with them in the first place.
- Pronouns
- He
I´m pretty sure the spiritual successors of the Zentrum are CDU-CSU, at least it´s them I´m talking bout
- Location
- UTC+0
- Pronouns
- He/Him/They
Yep, we're dancing with the devil:
Yeah, I guess you can say the Zentrum is THE conservative christian timeline of the interwar years.
- Pronouns
- He
Yeah, hence my comment how weird it is to see the SPD being actually larger than the conservative christ democrats. Can´t remember a time in my live when that was the case
- Location
- UTC+0
- Pronouns
- He/Him/They
Considering the only time I think Zentrum won more than zero seats was in 1953 (only three), and the last election they got a significant amount of them was 1933. Since I doubt you are in your 90s (would be pretty cool if you were though, you'd probably be the oldest person in SV
), makes sense you wouldn't remember it!
- Location
- USA
[X] PLAN: Vox Populi, vox Dei.
I'm going to take a moment to strongly advocate for the Australian system of voting. Utilizing this modified Weimar System is going to run into the issue of what is the ratio of seats allocated to the national vote versus the constituent based seats. This has the potential to become a long term political issue that may be revisited every election and is one that I think we shouldn't open ourselves up to.
The Australian system still has a strong moderating effect albeit nowhere near to the extent of first past the post, and it is one that I think is executed much more elegantly than a flat 5% bottom on the national party list. A 5% bottom at this time translates into something around 1.5 million votes and while again not as bad as first past the post in the idea of "wasting your vote" it nonetheless means that you can very much waste your vote in a national sense. You may not vote for your local candidate if their party has no realistic chance of getting that 1.5 million votes nationally even if they have a decent chance at winning their district.
In contrast the Australian system removes that particular idea of waste by having all Reichstag members being sent to the Reichstag via districts. Nothing is preventing a person from putting that person who wants their candidate in at their district as their first choice, and then more mainstream choices down the ticket.
In addition I strongly dislike party lists on the grounds that it accords excessive control of the legislature to the parties since the parties get to decide who is on the list and in what order. I think it is important to force parties to be more responsive to their voters and grassroots movements within their parties by not allowing them to make all members of their party in the legislature basically unrepentant loyalists. This is a double edged sword in that for the SPD we could expect more of our legislators to break with us on some votes but it also means that we could expect more crossover voting from other parties that we would otherwise consider implacable enemies. I don't think it's controversial to say that crossover voting is a sign of a more healthy democracy.
Regarding the anger this would cause on the DDP, the DDP judging by historical trends are likely to fall of heavily next election as in half or more of their vote share. They are likely to become a relatively minor member of our 3 party coalition and I am not terribly concerned at agitating them on this one issue.
Lastly, this option will only be splashing water on the hornets nest of the far right as opposed to hitting it with a baseball bat. I think that since we're going for the referendum and that it's better to be safe than sorry in that regard, that we should seriously consider if it's worth perhaps giving stronger impetus for the right wing elements in society to cooperate more in actively sabotaging the referendum via voter intimidation.
I'm going to take a moment to strongly advocate for the Australian system of voting. Utilizing this modified Weimar System is going to run into the issue of what is the ratio of seats allocated to the national vote versus the constituent based seats. This has the potential to become a long term political issue that may be revisited every election and is one that I think we shouldn't open ourselves up to.
The Australian system still has a strong moderating effect albeit nowhere near to the extent of first past the post, and it is one that I think is executed much more elegantly than a flat 5% bottom on the national party list. A 5% bottom at this time translates into something around 1.5 million votes and while again not as bad as first past the post in the idea of "wasting your vote" it nonetheless means that you can very much waste your vote in a national sense. You may not vote for your local candidate if their party has no realistic chance of getting that 1.5 million votes nationally even if they have a decent chance at winning their district.
In contrast the Australian system removes that particular idea of waste by having all Reichstag members being sent to the Reichstag via districts. Nothing is preventing a person from putting that person who wants their candidate in at their district as their first choice, and then more mainstream choices down the ticket.
In addition I strongly dislike party lists on the grounds that it accords excessive control of the legislature to the parties since the parties get to decide who is on the list and in what order. I think it is important to force parties to be more responsive to their voters and grassroots movements within their parties by not allowing them to make all members of their party in the legislature basically unrepentant loyalists. This is a double edged sword in that for the SPD we could expect more of our legislators to break with us on some votes but it also means that we could expect more crossover voting from other parties that we would otherwise consider implacable enemies. I don't think it's controversial to say that crossover voting is a sign of a more healthy democracy.
Regarding the anger this would cause on the DDP, the DDP judging by historical trends are likely to fall of heavily next election as in half or more of their vote share. They are likely to become a relatively minor member of our 3 party coalition and I am not terribly concerned at agitating them on this one issue.
Lastly, this option will only be splashing water on the hornets nest of the far right as opposed to hitting it with a baseball bat. I think that since we're going for the referendum and that it's better to be safe than sorry in that regard, that we should seriously consider if it's worth perhaps giving stronger impetus for the right wing elements in society to cooperate more in actively sabotaging the referendum via voter intimidation.