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[Continuation] Schwarz-Rot-Gold: An Interwar Germany Quest

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Mr. Sandman said:
If we want to do stuff later, we'll need to piss off the military eventually. Intensity matters though, if we go too far at first, they'll assume we'll continue to sideline them further, which is dangerous. We'll inevitably have to throw them a few bones, and this is pretty harmless as a far as they can go. We don't have that much goodwill with them, so let's not throw it away for now.
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I disagree on this point. We will always be fighting an uphill battle against the Army, on the simple basis that they don't really respect us and expect us to stay out of their affairs while they covertly and not-so-covertly meddle in ours.

The iron is hot now, so let us strike it now to build a unified civilian government and start the long process of bringing the Army to heel, before they manage to bring us to heel.
Mr. Sandman said:
Mainly pissing off the Zentrum, the military trying its own is nothing new, and would only be a problem if we need to put even more of them on trial, which I think is unlikely unless we piss them off majorly. I would worry if this meant they would be in charge of overseeing the judgent of Triad officers, but that's not the case fortunately. The Zentrum are important, and losing some of their support is not ideal, but we do have ways to remedy that, especially trying to replace the Prussian officers by the Bavarians, which would be a win-win and make them very happy.
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This sample solution is not quite a win-win. The Army would very much want their own people in these posts, and having the civilian government appoint officers for them would most definitely be seen as meddling and be received with hostility.
I suppose this underlines our quandary: appeasing one faction will often be done at the expense of another faction.
 
Baltika9 said:
The iron is hot now, so let us strike it now to build a unified civilian government and start the long process of bringing the Army to heel, before they manage to bring us to heel.
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This does nothing but piss the military off though, it doesn't take any power from them. The only thing it does is somewhat steal it's thunder, while allowing dangerous agitators to air their vitriol to all and sundry.
Baltika9 said:
This sample solution is not quite a win-win. The Army would very much want their own people in these posts, and having the civilian government appoint officers for them would most definitely be seen as meddling and be received with hostility.
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It is much easier to appease the Zentrum than the military. Think about this: do you expect we'll have easier options than this in the future to do so? This would mainly appeal to their ego and soothe their worries about the communists, not give them any substantial powers they wouldn't otherwise have. We may be forced to do much more unpalatable or risky things to not piss them off next time around.
 
Mr. Sandman said:
This does nothing but piss the military off though, it doesn't take any power from them. The only thing it does is somewhat steal it's thunder, while allowing dangerous agitators to air their vitriol to all and sundry.
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It denies them the symbolic authority granted by trying the KPD officers, and presents the civilian Republican government as the highest authority in the land, bar none. That the communists and proto-fascists will spew their vitriol from the podium is a foregone conclusion; all well and good, they will be doing that anyway and publicly condemning and convicting them will send a powerful message by itself.
Mr. Sandman said:
It is much easier to appease the Zentrum than the military. Think about this: do you expect we'll have easier options than this in the future to do so?
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I strongly disagree with the first argument. That Zentrum party was ready to launch a parliamentary challenge in the middle of a civil war to oust Ebert from power. Milquetoast centrists they are not, this is an organized political party with its own vision for Germany and the means to pursue power.

No. I do not think that appeasing them will be easier than appeasing the Army.

As for future opportunities do defang the military, the answer is again a 'no.' The military is much too powerful to appease with any gestures; in fact, I don't think that ours is a power dynamic where long-term appeasement is very practical. The Army in the current government seems like a power bloc that is equal to, if not stronger than, the civilian government. Giving them an inch always comes with the implicit risk that they will go on to demand a mile from us.

This is not a sustainable position, and it is one that we must begin overturning immediately.

Edit: in other words, now that the Wars are over, the Army is no longer our friend.
 
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[X] Plan: Everyone Goes to Court!

I have to say, considering what happened in Bavaria during the Civil War, I am quite surprised that it's zentrum advocating for us to take the high road when it comes to the communists. Still, if they at least have these principles it's a good sign for us going forward.
 
[X] Plan: Everyone Goes to Court!

It's unfortunate there's no such things as radios or televisions, and the federal government has been cracking down on populist propaganda, or otherwise we might be concerned about the public at large actually getting to hear what these traitors and terrorists have to say before they hang.

Shame that.
 
acook10 said:
It's unfortunate there's no such things as radios or televisions, and the federal government has been cracking down on populist propaganda, or otherwise we might be concerned about the public at large actually getting to hear what these traitors and terrorists have to say before they hang.

Shame that.
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mouli said:
The Zentrum wants to see them in court, and we can oblige them – at the cost of leaving those experienced agitators a place to spread their ideas.
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Mass media was a thing before televisions, and radio is a thing still... if you were in the last thread, you'd know how effective they are as propagandists, seeing as they convinced half of Germany we were starving them and then managed to make OUR supporters rise against OUR government after we gave them major concessions. Y'all are underestimating the KPD's reach and it is a big mistake.
Twiggierjet said:
[X] Plan: Everyone Goes to Court!

I have to say, considering what happened in Bavaria during the Civil War, I am quite surprised that it's zentrum advocating for us to take the high road when it comes to the communists. Still, if they at least have these principles it's a good sign for us going forward.
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I think you're being too generous to them. There might be some altruists there, but what they really want is to stick it to the Prussian protestant military establishment, which is a goal I sympathize with but I think is not wise at this juncture.
 
Mr. Sandman said:
Mass media was a thing before televisions, and radio is a thing still... if you were in the last thread, you'd know how effective they are as propagandists, seeing as they convinced half of Germany we were starving them and then managed to make OUR supporters rise against OUR government after we gave them major concessions. Y'all are underestimating the KPD's reach and it is a big mistake.

I think you're being too generous to them. There might be some altruists there, but what they really want is to stick it to the Prussian protestant military establishment, which is a goal I sympathize with but I think is not wise at this juncture.
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No radio stations yet bud. The earliest one was established in the mid 1920s in the USA.
 
[X] Plan: Everyone Goes to Court!

This is gonna hurt but regardless of cost i aee it as necesary
 
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Valerian said:
No radio stations yet bud. The earliest one was established in the mid 1920s in the USA.
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I was pretty sure wireless radio was a thing. Anyway, my point still stands, the option says the KPD can make a circus out of it, so that's what they'll do. I think it's a terrible ideia considering our previous experiences with letting them control the narrative. We can stop that AND get the military to chill out with Gericht. Zentrum we can deal with later, it's worth it if it avoids majorly pissing off the army and risking a coup.
 
[X] Plan: Everyone Goes to Court!

Legally, we never deputized law to the army during the civil war (i.e. we never choose the "Gericht" option during the last quest). So legally, we are obliged to try everyone in the courts. I am sure the army would agree that we violated enough rules for now, and everything should be done properly. Basically this employs two things:
1. Argue with their own principles that this action is the right one, this should make it clear that we understand them and very much follow the principle.
2. We are still riding off the victory in the war.

A word w.r.t. the Zentrum: They are not Weimar-USA-Republicans and I will beat everyone who suggests so with the Maß which lies next me ;-) The Zentrum are primary party of the catholic south and of the political centre, formed as a response to Bismarcks Kulturkampf. Which means its mostly concerned with keeping the state from interfering in religious business and being very law-and-order (not the dogwhistle kind, the there are rules, the rules must be obeyed kind). They were notable for being opposed to both Nazis and Communists, and being in favor of welfare, charity and so on.
On the downside, they had an authoritharan streak rooted in their "do properly" attitude.
Which returns us to the running theme of the thread "Virtue hath its downsides".
 
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