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A Harry Potter Quest: He who was not

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darknessworld said:
Voting the third option put us further in that direction. And if we don't try to stop taking those steps now, then when we should?
This is a thing that it easier to handle before it has time to grow.
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Not really though wizarding society proves that what kind of steps a person takes as long as you have your wand and determination you can do anything. I mean being grateful for helping in giving Jacob life would be a celebrated thing among wizards and alchemy while a mysterious art if based on legends then the Philosopher's Stone would have made the Flamels to dark lords by sheer virtue of the Law of Equivalent exchange in creating a stone as miraculous in giving near eternal life instead they are celebrated while wizards wonder how did they do it which the Flamels have removed all traces of its creation. Compare it to Grindenwald who was punished for him wanting to abolish the Statute of Secrecy and ensure that magic would once more return the world in force because wizards genuinely want to be left alone from all of this and not be judged by those ignorant in magic. The fact that world domination was also in his agenda was also a big red flag too.
 
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ALanos said:
Not really though wizarding society proves that what kind of steps a person takes as long as you have your wand and determination you can do anything.
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And we are, now, making a step, which will already limit our future options anyways, no matter what it wins.
And I think that going for the I don't care course is a bad idea.
 
[X] If nothing else, then I am grateful – Their action might have been heinous, but you would not be alive without it. You would not have learned of the wonders of the world, would not have had the possibility to discover them. You are glad that they did what they did.
 
darknessworld said:
And we are, now, making a step, which will already limit our future options anyways, no matter what it wins.
And I think that going for the I don't care course is a bad idea.
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This honestly feels like a broken record because you have been espousing that the we the voters won't have agency in how Jacob would develop when we had prevented him from murdering a sentient in cold blood before. While it was more of forcing them into servitide it would not be a lie that Jacob's upbringing is quite extraordinary by wizarding standards since he lived a life where he was the youngest in an island of those wishing to live out the rest of their final moments in peace. So he would be intimately connected with the concept of death that would have been worrying to some people jumping at the sight of a future dark lord which I don't believe he would ever be. Jacob as a person is still growing and saying that he would become a dark lord because of the love he feels for the people he considers his grandparents is quite absurd. He would see dispassionately on their dark deeds as something heinous sure but he would never allow that to turn it to hatred since hatred is a dark lord thing to do with your vote making him toss away that love.
 
Peeps. The question is literally "What do you think of Nicholas Flamel now that you have had some time to think about it?" With the options being:

- You disapprove and think less of him.
- You're uncertain, so you won't judge him.
- You're happy with what he did.

We've already locked-in that their achievement and conviction to do what they wanted was "Great" and that Jacob isn't at fault for his own existence. This isn't about his self worth but about the morality of the Flamel's actions. What do you think about them?
 
Dutch said:
Peeps. The question is literally "What do you think of Nicholas Flamel now that you have had some time to think about it?" With the options being:

- You disapprove and think less of him.
- You're uncertain, so you won't judge him.
- You're happy with what he did.

We've already locked-in that their achievement and conviction to do what they wanted was "Great" and that Jacob isn't at fault for his own existence. This isn't about his self worth but about the morality of the Flamel's actions. What do you think about them?
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I still wonder why we should judge when so many other wizarding families have so much more darker secrets with Jacob's own at the top of the list. I mean remembering the bloody deeds of your ancestor and allowing children to watch her wanton murder and destruction as her is quite an educational experience. I'm sure there is more dirt on his and other pureblood families around that getting more of the secret lore of Basques would make the Flamels deeds quite tame in comparison. The only people making a fuss are in the British ministry and most families already know how to hide their secrets which they've already did for centuries even before the Statute existed.
 
[X] If nothing else, then I am grateful – Their action might have been heinous, but you would not be alive without it. You would not have learned of the wonders of the world, would not have had the possibility to discover them. You are glad that they did what they did.
 
[X] If nothing else, then I am grateful – Their action might have been heinous, but you would not be alive without it. You would not have learned of the wonders of the world, would not have had the possibility to discover them. You are glad that they did what they did.
 
darknessworld said:
Because then we will have concrete reason to not let them con to maintain their dark secrets?
And also more exploration opportunities.
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We are already exploring the Basques dark secrets already and they seem to have been a prominent family at the beginning of civilization that others may be tame by comparison. Besides many things in the wizarding world have dark secrets you only snoop in on your enemies as is tradition and Jacob already dislikes Lupin so his dark secret was revealed to him IC. I don't really think Jacob would like to invade the privacy of people not interesting to him which includes Harry Potter.
 
JaceAoT said:
[X] If nothing else, then I am grateful – Their action might have been heinous, but you would not be alive without it. You would not have learned of the wonders of the world, would not have had the possibility to discover them. You are glad that they did what they did.

This portrays what I would like our PC to feel quite well.
It was a heinous thing, but there is no us without it.
So we can be grateful for that in this way.
That obviously does not make it less heinous and will probably give us a perspective that the Flamels would not have had when they made their decisions.

I agree with @Varder above me, the second one is too clinical for me.
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Nope that's not what it does.

Like categorically, the Protagonist is not acknowledging it the way you think he is with this option. He's saying others might find it heinous he personally doesn't.
 
ALanos said:
I still wonder why we should judge when so many other wizarding families have so much more darker secrets with Jacob's own at the top of the list. I mean remembering the bloody deeds of your ancestor and allowing children to watch her wanton murder and destruction as her is quite an educational experience. I'm sure there is more dirt on his and other pureblood families around that getting more of the secret lore of Basques would make the Flamels deeds quite tame in comparison. The only people making a fuss are in the British ministry and most families already know how to hide their secrets which they've already did for centuries even before the Statute existed.
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I'm unsure why you think we shouldn't morally judge and be disgusted by people who dabble in equally or darker acts?

And somehow I don't think letting someone experience the life of an ancestor is equal to the entrapment and mutilation of hundreds of souls. Unless pops had to sacrifice an innocent muggle in the basement in order to make it happen or something. I which case. Yes. I would think less of him.
 
I really don't get the discussion of how this one decision will turn us into a genocidal maniac. Sure this decision means we are happy to be alive and maybe later on we will get more moraly dark decisions but it doesn't mean we have to take them, just that we can. It might also mean that IC some of the fluff might lean into not caring if others do dark magic. I highly doubt it means we are going to go around killing babies, torturing families into comas for giggles and kicking puppies like Voldemort and his death eaters.
Edit: I can see how later on how if we want to cast spell X we have to do awful thing Y to cast it or learn it, we would get an option to cast the spell rather than it not even being a consideration to learn or cast. But a situation like that will most likely be player choice anyways.
 
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Alioth said:
I really don't get the discussion of how this one decision will turn us into a genocidal maniac. Sure this decision means we are happy to be alive and maybe later on we will get more moraly dark decisions but it doesn't mean we have to take them, just that we can. It might also mean that IC some of the fluff might lean into not caring if others do dark magic. I highly doubt it means we are going to go around killing babies, torturing families into comas for giggles and kicking puppies like Voldemort and his death eaters.
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Because If I found out that my father had been murdering dozens of people in order to find a viable kidney to transplant, and I responded with 'I'm happy and grateful you did so!" people would question my state of mind.

And rightfully so!
 
It's kind of sad how afraid people are to admit that past deeds even ones that lead to the current present could possibly be morally wrong. The current winning vote is just straight up saying that he's grateful that Nicholas was willing to murder people and that he doesn't personally think it's heinous because that lead to his existence, like this is straight up a vote down the path of total selfishness.

"My existence is worth countless deaths, because I am flat out more valuable and worthy" in isolation it's maybe not terrible but taken with the previous vote about this that won it's absolutely awful.

Any one that talked about 'Threading a needle' previously well you're not doing it with this vote winning.


Dutch said:
Because If I found out that my father had been murdering dozens of people in order to find a viable kidney to transplant, and I responded with 'I'm happy and grateful you did so!" people would question my state of mind.

And rightfully so!
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Actually they'd understand your motivation perfectly, they'd just rightly conclude you're a monster.
 
Looking at the options after sleeping on it, I sort of like the Pity option more now. I'll give it a shot, but might change back to the second option if it doesn't seem to be gaining traction. Of all of them, I now dislike Grateful the most, just because it looks at what Nicholas did and seems to view it the least negatively. They did pretty much betray the trust of the people that came to live with them.

[X] I do not hate you, but I pity you – You don't want to break contact with the man, because you do not want your parents to find out what the reason for this is. He has not many years left to his life. You will humour him, but he is not the man you had thought him to be.

Tzaphquiel said:
Seemingly useful or not, Astronomy, History, and Herbology cannot be allowed to lag indefinitely, not if the higher skill thresholds are to be reached.

- Can't get higher than 12 if not at least 5 skills are at least 12
- New threshold at 15. No skill can go higher than 15, if not at least 7 skills are 12 or higher and three are 15 or higher
- New threshold at 17. No skill can go higher than 17, if not at least 10 skills are 12 or higher and five are 15 or higher
- New threshold at 20. No skill can reach 20, if not at least 12 skills are 15 or higher
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Tbh, this is mostly a problem for next year and the year after Right now we are fine. Our highest class is DADA at A (9). It will be bumped up to A+ at the end of this year and it will reach the threshold of E (12) from the automatic class progress level-ups at the end of next year. Meaning it will only really become a problem during the end of our first semester during our 5th year at Hogwarts if we haven't chipped away at it in the meantime. Basically, we have all of next year to set ourselves up class wise. Right now we still have some spells/potions to learn for exams, exploration, dueling, and other projects (like the Map).

I'm not saying that we shouldn't do some Class training, but that the Skill 12 threshold isn't something that we should be super obsessive about this year. Tbh, if we bump up a class or two every turn from now on we don't have to worry about it too much. And we will likely continue to be bumping up classes like Arithmancy, Alchemy, and Creatures because certain actions or spells are gated behind increasing our skill in those areas.

Dutch said:
Because If I found out that my father had been murdering dozens of people in order to find a viable kidney to transplant, and I responded with 'I'm happy and grateful you did so!" people would question my state of mind.

And rightfully so!
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Tbf, in that situation according to the Grateful option, you would find your father's actions heinous, but would have told him after the fact that you are glad he ultimately did it. Like, you going to see him in prison during visiting hours and telling him that what he did was wrong, but you are also glad to be alive. So while you are upset, you can't actually be too upset if that makes any sense.

All of the voting options have different levels of how appalled we are by the act. Which is what kind of makes the vote difficult is that in all the options we are somewhat appalled, it is just the degrees that change.
 
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[X] I do not hate you, but I pity you – You don't want to break contact with the man, because you do not want your parents to find out what the reason for this is. He has not many years left to his life. You will humour him, but he is not the man you had thought him to be.

The nature of quests being power fantasies means anything involving morality where the protagonist or his allies being wrong gets shunned and outright ignored. It is what it is.
 
ShyGuy said:
Looking at the options after sleeping on it, I sort of like the Pity option more now. I'll give it a shot, but might change back to the second option if it doesn't seem to be gaining traction. Of all of them, I now dislike Grateful the most, just because it looks at what Nicholas did and seems to view it the least negatively. They did pretty much betray the trust of the people that came to live with them.
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You know that you can vote for both, no? Just to make sure that the third option doesn´t win...

Actually, that is what I am going to do...

[X] In the end, I am the only one who I can judge – You do not think that his actions were justified. Even if you would not be alive without him and his wife, the cost was too large. The logical conclusion is easy, but you do feel conflicted. You remember how well they have always treated and cared for you. Who are you to judge their actions, when you have not walked their shoes?

[X] I do not hate you, but I pity you – You don't want to break contact with the man, because you do not want your parents to find out what the reason for this is. He has not many years left to his life. You will humour him, but he is not the man you had thought him to be.
 
Dutch said:
Because If I found out that my father had been murdering dozens of people in order to find a viable kidney to transplant, and I responded with 'I'm happy and grateful you did so!" people would question my state of mind.

And rightfully so!
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I read it as I know what you did was wrong but I'm grateful you did because it means I got a chance to live. People can do awful and horrible things and you can still love them and be grateful they did them but still find the action horrific. I just don't see the connect between this and a direct line to I'm a genocidal maniac or I think this then I HAVE to become a dark lord. In the end even the pity option is structured that you won't tell anyone because you don't want your parents to know and he's dying anyways. It also means however indirectly you don't value your life
 
Alioth said:
I read it as I know what you did was wrong but I'm grateful you did because it means I got a chance to live. People can do awful and horrible things and you can still love them and be grateful they did them but still find the action horrific. I just don't see the connect between this and a direct line to I'm a genocidal maniac or I think this then I HAVE to become a dark lord. In the end even the pity option is structured that you won't tell anyone because you don't want your parents to know and he's dying anyways. It also means however indirectly you don't value your life
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The default for Jacob is not to find it horrific, however; remember that while he has the potential to take moral action into his personality, currently he puts knowledge and greatness above all else. This decision, like the original, pushes him simultaneously along two axes:

Not-horrified/horrified by the circumstances of his birth, and through this
Still Like/Dislike the Flamels.

The grateful action doesn't just mean "I still like Nicholas", it means "I think whatever horror his actions might otherwise have had is irrelevant in the face of my existence, and so I still like Nicholas"
Similarly, I pity you means "I think the actions that led to my birth were bad regardless of their greatness, and so I no longer like Nicholas ".

The "I can't judge" is the only one that says "I think the actions that led to my birth were bad, and yet I still like Nicholas".

So while he won't automatically become a genocidal maniac if we choose "grateful", it means that in the future he will be willing to do similar things to achieve his own greatness. The Flamels weren't genocidal maniacs either, just genocidal.
 
I didn't know we could vote for two options, so thanks @Fanhunter696. That way I can choose my two favorite options without worry, since I really don't care who wins, as long as it's not the first option.

[X] In the end, I am the only one who I can judge – You do not think that his actions were justified. Even if you would not be alive without him and his wife, the cost was too large. The logical conclusion is easy, but you do feel conflicted. You remember how well they have always treated and cared for you. Who are you to judge their actions, when you have not walked their shoes?

[X] If nothing else, then I am grateful – Their action might have been heinous, but you would not be alive without it. You would not have learned of the wonders of the world, would not have had the possibility to discover them. You are glad that they did what they did.
 
Azais said:
I didn't know we could vote for two options, so thanks @Fanhunter696. That way I can choose my two favorite options without worry, since I really don't care who wins, as long as it's not the first option.
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To be entirely honest, I have no confirmation of the QM, but I have not seen the QM saying anything when people have voted for more than one option on other votes, so I kind of deduced it from that...

Edit: Well I can just ask him @Tabula Rasa can we vote for more than one option?
 
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[ ] I do not hate you, but I pity you – You don't want to break contact with the man, because you do not want your parents to find out what the reason for this is. He has not many years left to his life. You will humour him, but he is not the man you had thought him to be.

Jacob can't forgive Flammels, and while their actions were great, their lies were just as great. Jacob judges them guilty; but because Nicolas is old, miserable and unlikely to repeat anything like that, Jacob'll extend a hand, even if he distrusts the man. Purely superficial connection only.

[ ] In the end, I am the only one who I can judge – You do not think that his actions were justified. Even if you would not be alive without him and his wife, the cost was too large. The logical conclusion is easy, but you do feel conflicted. You remember how well they have always treated and cared for you. Who are you to judge their actions, when you have not walked their shoes?

Jacob can't forgive Flammels, their actions were great and terrible in equal measure. Jacob can't understand this; Flammels who loved him couldn't have been the same people who harvested their neighbours' souls while lying to their faces. So Jacob refuses judging them at all - because he doesn't truly understand them, and noone except Flammels themselves can.

[ ] If nothing else, then I am grateful – Their action might have been heinous, but you would not be alive without it. You would not have learned of the wonders of the world, would not have had the possibility to discover them. You are glad that they did what they did.

Jacob is repulsed by their actions, but this feeling is overshadowed by gratitude: they gave him a chance to live. Without them and their actions, Jacob would not be.
____

That's how I understand these choices.

The second one is easily the most villainous one: if noone can rightly judge your actions, then things like laws and ethics have no right to dictate your actions. Because they were created by people who can't understand or judge you and your situation.

The first one focuses on how "Flammel is bad because he lied to Jacob" for me to like it. The vote itself says nothing of the morals of the actions, it only focuses on Flammel's duplicity and the way their actions hurt Jacob.

The third one acknowledges that even terrible atrocities can be benefitial and worth it to someone. And that's true imo, so I vote for it.

[X] If nothing else, then I am grateful – Their action might have been heinous, but you would not be alive without it. You would not have learned of the wonders of the world, would not have had the possibility to discover them. You are glad that they did what they did.
 
Varder said:
The first one focuses on how "Flammel is bad because he lied to Jacob" for me to like it. The vote itself says nothing of the morals of the actions, it only focuses on Flammel's duplicity and the way their actions hurt Jacob.
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Or you know. The fact that the kindly old grandpa turned out to be a literal soulsnatcher. That sounds way more "he is not the man you had thought him to be." then "he lied to me".

But everyone is apparently just interpreting the choices in their own way anyhow and it doesn't look like we're getting a clarification on how Jacob actually views each of these.
 
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