Getting the opportunity to buy A Hero's Reward required us to burn multiple rerolls on surviving a 5 pick so I'm not interested in advancing Hunger's relationship with Haeliel if it means rewarding and thus encouraging the thread to make suicidal decisions.
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
Just because something is rare doesn't make it better. As for her being powerful, or rare, or needing circumstances to align for her to be a valid pick, meh. Look at the OaF picks; there was only ever one Forebear, only one person (Hunger) can ever take his stuff, and he was of equivalent power (if not greater) than Haliel. Begging for attention from Haliel and spending all our arete getting free handouts and headpats is lame and so much less cool than drawing directly on the power and essence of the Forebear.
It's a bad narrative fit for Hunger to win because of age and treachery and then become a hero for it. Also I dislike pure heroism.
- Location
- Louisiana
You don't get to high cursebearer status by being reckless. I sincerely doubt she would encourage the recklessness, but she would applaud the newly found interest in defending the weak and fighting the unjust. All the general heroism stuff. If anything this is probably the only option that actually addresses Hungers recklessness. If that's your
reason to vote against it I think you're looking at it the wrong way.
Ok but there's a difference between drawing from someone's power and having someone's interest and investment. Imagine the Forebear was still alive, how much would you value a personal investment from him? How much would you value having him imbue you with a surge of power, a reward for a tremendous deed, and provide you with advice?
The only reason Hunger is able to draw power from the Forebear's blade is because of The Accursed's handouts.
And yet we have a Heroic Advancement - something that we got because of Haeliel's Favor - from fighting Procyon, a 5 pick that required multiple rerolls to have a chance of victory in the double digits. The fact is that reckless behaviour has greater rewards because of Favor, I'd rather not increase those rewards further and risk the thread being overcome by greed.
Last edited:
- Location
- Louisiana
Just because the only heroic advancement option we've seen is from a 5 pick fight doesn't mean every heroic option will involve extreme danger. It's heroic progression not reckless progression. In fact that's a distinction I bet haeliel will make to hunger herself, in order to be heroic and save lives you have to be alive to do it in the first place.
The point I was trying to make is that High Cursebearer attention may be cool but it's not 50 arete cool. This is especially true given Hunger is the Forebear reborn or something, and he can earn Accursed Favor.
So far we've had one chapter featuring the Accursed, one for the Forebear, and one for Haliel (the Accursed stopping by to introduce Haliel and then immediately leaving doesn't count). If I were to rank the three in terms of which one I'd prefer a second chapter where they feature, it'd go Forebear>Accursed>Haliel.
So far we've had one chapter featuring the Accursed, one for the Forebear, and one for Haliel (the Accursed stopping by to introduce Haliel and then immediately leaving doesn't count). If I were to rank the three in terms of which one I'd prefer a second chapter where they feature, it'd go Forebear>Accursed>Haliel.
- Location
- US
[X] A Hero's Reward
[X] Grievous Exertion
I think GenericName brought up a really good point in that becoming one of Haeliel's Chosen would make her slightly more invested in our survival— which coming from an existence as transcendentally powerful as a High Cursebearer, is incredibly valuable for increasing Hunger's chances for surviving through the epilogue.
[X] Grievous Exertion
I think GenericName brought up a really good point in that becoming one of Haeliel's Chosen would make her slightly more invested in our survival— which coming from an existence as transcendentally powerful as a High Cursebearer, is incredibly valuable for increasing Hunger's chances for surviving through the epilogue.
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
Point of order: the Cursebearer Association was not a defensive wish.
Point of order: the challenge of beating Procyon will only provide us with a big power boost if we choose an option that increases our power. On the topic of heroism, Rihaku has said:
It's fine to argue that you want to steer Hunger in a different direction, but there are opportunity costs for Heroism as well. I rate the loss of seeing any blurbs for Heroic Advancements, the loss of maybe leaving Gisena & Aobaru & Letrizia behind, and the lost opportunity for our own Armament / Companion EFB / Praxis advancement as being too painful to accept.
- Location
- US
Point of order: It was still a Lesser Wish by Orm who said something about what the Accursed thought Hunger could use right now. So effectively, it was an expenditure of similar magnitude that allowed for the opportunity.
There's a big distance between Rihaku saying that power isn't everything for Heroism so you shouldn't get it for just that, and Hero's Reward not increasing our power.
Last edited:
- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
Hell yeah, Opalescence GANG rise up
- Location
- Louisiana
You're right on the defensive wish thing, mistake on my part. The power boost thing was more of a point that a 50 arete spending opportunity with 5 picks is the biggest chance of progression we've stumbled upon so far. Wasn't meant to discuss the actual power level of the options. I'd argue that any one of these options would provide more power than any spending point we've seen to date.
I also never said there weren't opportunity costs, I merely think the opportunity is a rare and unique one that is sure to provide a multitude of powerful benefits. Personally I think that's worth the minor risk stated and the loss of the other options, but it's your right to vote for and defend the other options.
Rihaku
The Internet
Considering the number of avenues you have for Progression, I think Armory of Night + Over-Refined is a somewhat overlooked combo. Not only do you get the utility of a beyond-full power Armament, not only do you get an incredibly a e s t h e t i c Versch to handle combat and/or the Apocryphal Armament itself, you put yourself in a position to access the 8th Sign much sooner! It also offers the most immediate power outside of the Hour of Reckoning, which may be highly relevant when going into a warzone... perhaps you may not feel the visceral difference in power between Myth's strength and Armory's in the current moment, but what happens when you enter the Human Sphere and actually have to deal with multiple Armaments on the field of battle?
- Location
- Pindorama
Begone, foul fiend! You will not make me abandon the Praxis so easily!
Maybe it'll be something like more freedom from the Curses. That could be huge. Not having the Decimator's hanging over our heads, the Apocryphal making everything worse, and the Tyrant's Doom making me nervous and worried -- or, at least, not to such an extent.
Or maybe it'll be opportunity. The potential to go somewhere and take action, like back on his first isekai world.
Or maybe his memories and things he sacrificed to fell the Tyrant. This could be a chance to get a lot of Hunger backstory!
Maybe it'll even be the Fairbright Bloodline.
Regardless, whatever it is, I think it'll be totally bullshit. If I weren't voting for Myth and Legend, I'd probably be voting for this. In fact, I'll edit support for this choice alongside my own vote earlier. 5 picks, 50 arête, Heroic Upgrade, circumstances (empowered-Apocryphal proc fended off), big damn heroes moment, High Cursebearer interaction, risk of death... ... Also. Never having to worry about 'Apocryphal Onslaught.'
To quote a certain Dwarf: Certainty of death. Small chance of success. What are we waiting for?
... I'm kind of suspecting this choice to have something related or to do with Apocryphal Curse handling. That is, the fact that Haeliel was called in because of an incoming Apocryphal proc, the fact that we faced it head-on, the fact we triumphed, and the fact that the choice as-is says that it takes away the risk of Aobaru dying leading to the Pursuer leading to us getting a storm of Apocryphal procs...
Makes me think that the "reward" is going to be some way to get to grips with the Apocryphal Curse. Maybe a big boost to Curse Mitigation for the Apocryphal. Maybe expanded options for tackling it -- stuff like "Spare the Innocent" effects from recruiting Adorie, you know?
I'll be fully honest. I think, that, if you want the best chances of picking an option that is likely to have something that is directly to do with about the Apocryphal Curse... That this is the pick to make, the most likely option to have something related to it. (Others tackle it by giving power or potential or healing injuries; this one, I suspect, takes some kind of direct rather than indirect take to the Apocryphal Curse, though.)
[X] Myth and Legend
[X] A Hero's Reward
There we go. I said I'd change to vote for both, so I'm voting for both.
Mind. I still prefer Myth and Legend. I just think Hero's Reward is something that is total hot bullshit and would make eyes bulge and people go "holy shit!" So hey, have a vote.
Or maybe it'll be opportunity. The potential to go somewhere and take action, like back on his first isekai world.
Or maybe his memories and things he sacrificed to fell the Tyrant. This could be a chance to get a lot of Hunger backstory!
Maybe it'll even be the Fairbright Bloodline.
Regardless, whatever it is, I think it'll be totally bullshit. If I weren't voting for Myth and Legend, I'd probably be voting for this. In fact, I'll edit support for this choice alongside my own vote earlier. 5 picks, 50 arête, Heroic Upgrade, circumstances (empowered-Apocryphal proc fended off), big damn heroes moment, High Cursebearer interaction, risk of death... ... Also. Never having to worry about 'Apocryphal Onslaught.'
To quote a certain Dwarf: Certainty of death. Small chance of success. What are we waiting for?
... I'm kind of suspecting this choice to have something related or to do with Apocryphal Curse handling. That is, the fact that Haeliel was called in because of an incoming Apocryphal proc, the fact that we faced it head-on, the fact we triumphed, and the fact that the choice as-is says that it takes away the risk of Aobaru dying leading to the Pursuer leading to us getting a storm of Apocryphal procs...
Makes me think that the "reward" is going to be some way to get to grips with the Apocryphal Curse. Maybe a big boost to Curse Mitigation for the Apocryphal. Maybe expanded options for tackling it -- stuff like "Spare the Innocent" effects from recruiting Adorie, you know?
I'll be fully honest. I think, that, if you want the best chances of picking an option that is likely to have something that is directly to do with about the Apocryphal Curse... That this is the pick to make, the most likely option to have something related to it. (Others tackle it by giving power or potential or healing injuries; this one, I suspect, takes some kind of direct rather than indirect take to the Apocryphal Curse, though.)
[X] Myth and Legend
[X] A Hero's Reward
There we go. I said I'd change to vote for both, so I'm voting for both.
Mind. I still prefer Myth and Legend. I just think Hero's Reward is something that is total hot bullshit and would make eyes bulge and people go "holy shit!" So hey, have a vote.
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
We've seen that Armaments have innate methods of Curse Mitigation. (Both Versch and Procyon managed to avoid the worst of the damage to their allies.)
Armory of Night literally makes an Apocryphal Curse Armament.
Color me dubious about your claim that Haeliel is more likely to interact with the Apocryphal Curse than the Apocryphal Curse Armament would be.
Strange9
hdellaverson@gmail.com
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
In all fairness, to quote Rihaku:
It's a mystery box, and one that's been mentioned twice to not necessarily be about power.
I wouldn't be shocked at all if it does less to directly increase Hunger's combat capability than several of the other options, and I think that's a fair point to make.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
So I found an unfinished reaction I had sitting around and I decided to finish it. Word Count once I libreoffice (Edit: Word Count = 1421 Words)
---
---
Sounds like a Kevin Crawford RPG book. Stars Without Number, Worlds without number that's in kickstarter right now IIRC, Silent Legions, etc. The green in the title is kind of surprising, we took intensive research as a blue option so where did the Green come from?
We're a dumpster fire for ruling though. Unless this has shifted us in a better direction characterizationwise. Also this is a warning that we may need Veil of Grandeur to get Gisena involved in Synthesis in any meaningful capacity.
I wonder if Tears of Winter would give us an advancement that would help us deal with paperwork. Or if sufficient intelligence would enable us to work out a more efficient way of organizing the Kingdom?
So the country is well designed enough to function well even though we/Adorie are at the helm. What convinced people to support the Lord Protector in the first place anyways.
It turns into an embarassing noodle incident. Seriously. If I knew we were going to throw all our money into the cloak I might have argued more stridently against this plan. Was this why Adorie got deposed, because Royalists were doing things like this?
A nice demonstration of just how overwhelmingly HAX rank can be.
While we are a walking cognitohazard, a hypercharismatic hammer.
Oh God. Heroic Passions. We are going to have to remember everyone from Nilfel is like this.
That helps explain how Augustine took power fairly well I think.
That's good. Let's not do anything that might set off the Apocrypha before Adorie can get properly situated as regent. Like expansionist wars. Or questionable economic transactions. Time for Magiscience.
I imagine it's a similar sensation to the possibility of getting somebody competent in power after Trump's reign.
Long may the Shard of the Arcanist sleep then. Seriously. Sleep as long as you want.
Turning the power of entropy to that? It seems like it should be conceptually impossible. Seriously. Is this the power of To Shatter Heaven? Did the Forbear have some version of that to apply to the Power of Ruin?
A pity we can't get inanimate objects into the All Defeating Stance. That'd be great from a Synthesis standpoint.
That is pretty farking ridiculous. I can see why it gets compared to Rank. Entropy as Fate manipulation? I suppose it makes sense in Mage the Ascension but I'd have to think a bit to get how that's possible. Entropy is randomness/Disorder. Entropy is Ruin. Therefore Power over Ruin is power over randomness.
Between Arete shenanigans and the Ring of Hunger we've done what would be decades of work for the "Average" progression type cursebearer(If any of them can really be called average). And it's a litany because we've been trying to break out of the Ring of Hunger's Incentive structure and because we think the Praxis is cool.
That sounds awesomely cathartic for Hunger knowing you can curbstomp your old nemesis now.
A few days? That's unfortunate. We might have to wait until our first Pillars Proc to make that happen. We're still acting like the protagonist of Crank. *Cue Kickin' from the Crank 2: High Voltage soundtrack*
A Synthesis acheivement may help with that Lord Hunger. Also taking Skyward Claim or Veil of Grandeur. Synthesis is also likely to give us utility options for our 5th sign.
Glad it's not the only one. Deathly Star seems like an option that may help solve the problem but the question is whether or not it's a Red Herring.
My brain is going really random places right now, I'm thinking of the music video for Hammerfall's Any Means Necessary and the opening to the First season of One Punch Man. The part where Lightning Strikes Saitama.
If Synthesis gives us a Research aid for the fifth sign that might help.
We're in Science Adventure mode now. Deceive Yourself. Deceive the World. That is the only way you can reach Steins Gate. El. Psy. Congroo. *Cue Sky Clad Observer*
Playing around with your usual aversion to the title of Lord today, Lord Hunger?
Rank 9.X Verschlengorge? That sounds powerful when it brings the Shroud abilities out. Either that or there's been no change in Verschlengorge's level of healedness. I'm not quite sure.
Whoever set Letrezia up is going to be so surprised when we get her back out of the Voyaging Realm. In hindsight now that I'm writing this I don't know how long later, Verschlengorge could end up utterly ridiculously strong if Armory of Night wins.
Whether or not Gisena can fix Verschlengorge is something of a moot point at this point if Armory of Night wins. Also it turns out she probably didn't have the time? I forget what's been happening and when sometimes.
I don't know. The fact that she has Retinue means that she's one of those people who can say things like "All the light in the sky may be my enemy, but that simply means I must strike them all down" and genuinely back it up one day.
We still don't have a solution to that are we going to have to bum one off an Astral Denizen or attempt to fight the Apocalypse or something?
In hindsight this is going to go hilariously badly and I'm going to need to put a boatload of effort into saving us from the terrible consequences of non-synthesis options fairly soon.
I wonder what our rank would be like if it hybridized with an Armament. Rank 10.5? Rank 11? Like a Galaxy? An Endless sky of rank?
This is going to end with stupid use of money we were lucky enough to be able to science our way out of but that's the spirit Hunger. Seriously if I had known we were going to do this I would have fought harder against intensive research.
Make reality give you the page of the book you're looking for like a boss. That's cool.
Appropriate energies is of course, either Findross or ISH elevated Findross with a Praxis Blue Aura. We could probably make some Arcanist sigils with Edeldross but that's a giant batch of effortposts I have no desire to retread here.
I suppose the Well Sorcery fits Hunger... unfortunately.
We're going to need more science here to fully explore Adories theories I think.
Least Foresleep would make getting our party from Nilfel to the Voyaging city an utter pain in the you know what.
It might have been in some obscure tunnel in Nilfel.
Not necessarily. If Myth and Legend wins you're about to take a level in badass Adorie with whatever Oath of Winter means in practice.
This set us up for some nasty consequences if we couldn't science our way out of our problems because we were all acting like a bunch of overpowered rich twits for some reason in this update. Seriously, if I had known we were going to do something this dumb I would have put a lot more effort into fighting it.
---
Ouch. Just... ouch.
It also sets up the Apocrypha curse to send a mountain-holds nationalist assassin after us, or we get waylaid by some balrog analogous figure, or the terminator could have showed up, this was terrible from an Aobaru safety standpoint.
This one was fairly obvious about its consequences.
This one could have pissed Aobaru off, we become a part of the problem of the Voyaging Realms diminishment with all the other farked up consequences that entailed.
Here is where I went onto a ginormous ride into obsession that 80% delivered. I am very glad it work. It's a pity Blood Sorcery got overshadowed by Haeliel though. We could have had so much wealth to feed our cloak if we had Daylian with us, and then we would have our own Perfect Susanoo/Armament of Midnight/Apocryphal Armament.
---
Immediate power made us pay dearly. I wonder how well we would have done against Procyon with Skyward Claim enhanced Gisena or Aobaru. Or Veil of Grandeured Gisena letting her research combat graces. We got stupendously costly victory from a reroll department, some of the conditions aren't so bad depending on how you look at them/what you take but others make Myth and Legend practically mandatory, but we could have always ran. Trained in the Realm of Evening. Then curbstomped Procyon like sensible people after training with Aobaru.
We got a costly victory out of the combination of this and our own recklessness.
I can't begin to fathom what might have changed if we took this one in conjunction with Synthesis.
Last edited:
- Location
- US
Rihaku explicitly said that we are far away from the strength needed for Stage III MItigation. All curses are at Stage II (Except Tyrant), so the side-benefits of Armaments towards Mitigation is highly unlikely to be relevant for a long time yet.
As for Haeliel being more relevant to the Apocryphal Curse than an Apocryphal Curse Armament, of course she'd be more relevant.
This is a being that brought the Apocryphal Curse down to a fragment of its former power with Stage VII Mitigation. That's actually absurd. For context, Stage VIII is the mythical Complete Mitigation.
Whatever scrap of help Haeliel could give for Mitigation would outshine the Apocryphal Armament like how the energy released from the initial expansion of the universe outshines a firefly. And I'm still lowballing.
Last edited:
Eh, to me it sounded more like the Armaments were meant to be lightning rods for the Curses.
They're meant to help a Cursebearer by suffering some of the Curse in his place.
And they're meant to mitigate it, by... well, by doing whatever.
So, Verschlengorge helps mitigate the Decimator's Affliction... by going out and eating something big and badass.
THAT'S how an Armament is meant to help it's Cursebearer!
We've just been doing it ass-backwards.
We were linking to the Armament, and then sating our Decimator's in order to quell Verschlengorge's, when it's meant to be the opposite! The Armament is meant to help the Cursebearer, not the other way around. (Or, alternatively, the Armaments were just inspired by seeing Cursebearers, and were an attempt to draw from the same power the Cursebearers were, and as a result they gained Curses too.)
So, I suspect that the Apocryphal Armament could mitigate the Apocrphyal Curse, yes. By suffering it in our place, or alongside us.
Which would still be a form of Mitigation, sure. And we'd have a Super Robot to face the next Apocryphal Proc in. And maybe it'll have some more options like, "The Curse will prefer to take the form of martial challenges, appropriate to a Super Robot, rather than social challenges or esoteric bullshit."
But all in all, think about how having Verschlengorge has made us view the Decimator's Affliction -- by having us worry about Letrizia's health, desire to restore her stolen lifespan, and feeling relief at Hunger quickly sating his Curse because it meant that Verschlengorge would not suffer it either. Yeah. Verschlengorge has not exactly been helpful to mitigating the Decimator's Affliction, has he? Probably because we're not using him the right way. ... And also because he's horribly, horrible freaking weakened, to be fair. He'll probably have more options when restored.
EDIT:
... Actually, thinking about it, I think I have an idea about one of the things that the "meet Haeliel again" option might have us get.
Namely? It might see us healed again.
Because, well. What happened the first time we met her?
She healed us. And she did that just because she could, because she had the opportunity to.
So.
I think A Hero's Reward might actually heal us, just as Myth and Legend does.
That actually makes me feel way better about voting for it, too!
Last edited:
Strange9
hdellaverson@gmail.com
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
As much as I agree that Haeliel's advice would be highly relevant, I don't actually think she can help mitigate curses directly without, as the big A-man said, "provoking the curses." If High Cursebearers or the Accursed could mitigate crowning curses for newbie cursebearers, they'd probably do so right out of the gate: as the Accursed said, after all, with them, "final death is almost invariably swift and inescapable." If they could and didn't, they'd be turning their chosen loose on their own and allowing most of them die, which strikes me as something that is unlikely for the Seraph of Heroism (whose signature move is sending people on Isekai adventures where they're well-prepared and have lots of fun).
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
By your own argument, we are far away from Stage III mitigation. Sure. Ok. Great. But unless you're arguing that Haeliel is going to gift us Stage III mitigation then this is pretty much a red herring.
Your original point was:
Apocryphal Armament is guaranteed to interface with the Apocryphal Curse, while Haeliel only has the capacity to provide advice & guidance. You've suddenly shifted the goalposts to be 'quality of mitigation' instead of 'probability of salience.'
I don't think she's going to directly somehow solve it. But, for instance, she'll do stuff like rewire the Terminator's target from Aobaru to us -- thus sparing us the risk of Aobaru getting picked off, and us getting hit with Apocryphal Onslaught.
That, by itself, is a weight off our shoulders. Not having to worry about Aobaru being targeted and a major shitstorm from the Apocryphal Curse.
That was me, not ReaderOfFate.
Also, Haeliel actually does have a guarantee to interface with the Apocryphal Curse: the Terminator targets us instead of Aobru, so goodbye risk of Apocryphal Onslaught.
Aobaru is no longer a weakpoint for us. That's huge. Because Hunger is a hell of a lot more powerful, and a hell of a lot more faster-advancing, than Aobaru.
You don't see that as Apocryphal-interacting stuff?