Hm. Um, thinking about it, somehow it strikes me as a bit of a questionable idea to try to go for a diplomatic-cleverness based victory... while having unmitigated Doom of the Tyrant. (Most likely, Hunger is probably going to take the sort of approach where he tries to railroad over the opposition with bluntness and/or power, and usually comes off as unreasonable (or at minimum extremely blunt and brusque) which... would probably not play well with a hostage negotiation.)

I mean... I remember when argumentation and devil's advocating was being done for "Relinquishment" way back at the start of things, one of the tactics discussed was using it to dodge Apocryphal or Tyrant problems. "Activate it before your confrontation with the Apocryphal-granted nemesis and ensure they don't get a helping hand from the Curse, use it in conjunction with super speed + dimensional travel to get large amounts of prep done during the week, prove to the peoples of the galaxy that you can compromise, it's just that your opponents' proposals are usually too stupid for you to yield, etc."

Take that and mirror it, and it pretty clearly hints that trying negotiation with the Tyrant's Doom is usually a PITA in some way or another. (Really would have felt more comfortable with this if we'd taken that social action at the Elixir Sovereignty to go walkabout and see how your Tyrant's Doom acts in practice. Alas.)

Probably, somebody with the Tyrant's Doom has to do a lot of "my way or the highway" type stuff, being unreasonable and unwilling to compromise. Or maybe playing around with exact words, to avoid never getting trapped into a promise they don't want to make -- which can make you come off as shifty or untrustworthy.


So... Yeah. Basically? I feel like we should stick to our strengths here. Rather than enter an area with uncertain pitfalls and weaknesses and blindspots. Maybe we should try to venture out of our comfort area, and explore what the Doom of the Tyrant is like in the social and negotiating arena, buuut... I'm not sure I want to start doing that while staring at a 5-pick fight. O_O

(On the bright side -- really trying to look at that bright side -- success in this method might mean some juicy picks? Because you're fighting in an area where you are, um... let's say a very blunt or handicapped tactician. Yeah.)
 
The next line isn't a rebuttal. The post I'm responding to brings up the example of the Forebear cutting through someone who tries to social their way out of certain defeat. How'd that work for the Ur-mother? In fact, there are other similarities: when diplomacy failed, she shot a fuckhuge laser just like we are planning to use Deathly Star.
Of course it is rebuttal. Ur-Mother would have defeated Forebear through the power of her First Language, while Armament is not especially vulnerable to just talking, so it has no reason not to spend few microsecond chatting if that could lead to it not having to deploy Shroud, spend time breaking down Walls of Myth and losing bunch of very expensive support for no reason.
Seize tries to weaponize compassion as a weakness in the operator of a walking WMD.


Doesn't OaF boost military matters much more than social? Anyways, I have a general feeling that we have more combat specs, though the point actually comes straight from the update, since, if I'm not misunderstanding, Hunger seems to think physical combat has a better chance, which you didn't actually address at all. Procyon is built for combat, so that's where the pilot will be steering the confrontation. Do you really think he cares that much about our hostages? I'm very doubtful we can actually force the diplomacy, and so is Hunger.
  • You are confusing military with combat. OaF also boosts our social and tactics when they are for purpose of war.
  • It doesn't matter how our combat compares to our social, but how they strong they are relative to Armament.
  • According to Hunger Shroud is "a long shoot" while Seize is "unlikely, but possible". Overall, current Shroud tactics are pretty poor and I can't think of anything that would improve them, while the ability to power up from talking creates many possible scenarios through which we can seize(heh) the victory
  • Of course he does. Even discounting any emotions and focusing on practicality, mages and military hardware have value and we already know that Armament values not having to deploy it's Shroud
I can buy some crippling wounds if we succeed, but not fully. However, the fight is absolutely not "95% "you die" and 5% "you somehow manage not to die"". Hunger seems to think this has a pretty good chance of working, and pretty good is definitely not 5% survival rate with a slice of crippling. If the first strike only works partially, then it'll be a long shot, but you're skipping a step I think. Seize doesn't really help with these concerns either, since if the troops won't matter to the pilot, we have ceded our advantage, and thus the resulting combat will actually be with the odds you mentioned.
Please pay attention when reading the blurbs.
*He doesn't need to kill it, he just needs to weaken it enough that it can't kill Hunger through his Ring-based regeneration, Outer Shadow wound resistance and Armor of Midnight before its Shroud is exhausted. It's a long shot, but a better strategy than most.
*If this first strike fails to do meaningful damage Hunger will have committed almost all of his trump cards for little gain. Victory would be exceedingly unlikely thereafter.
"Long shoot" is about our alpha strike doing anything at all. If we fail to to enough damage, we are just dead.

And Shroud was down has a better chance of working in my eyes.
Because you read the blurb and think that chances of it actually working is chance of Hunger winning if he fucks up, apparently..
Hm. Um, thinking about it, somehow it strikes me as a bit of a questionable idea to try to go for a diplomatic-cleverness based victory... while having unmitigated Doom of the Tyrant. (Most likely, Hunger is probably going to take the sort of approach where he tries to railroad over the opposition with bluntness and/or power, and usually comes off as unreasonable (or at minimum extremely blunt and brusque) which... would probably not play well with a hostage negotiation.)
Tyrant just makes it impossible for us to acknowledge the authority of others, which doesn't really matter here as our foe has no direct authority over us given that we are representative of difference nations and so on.
 
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Overall, current Shroud tactics are pretty poor and I can't think of anything that would improve them, while the ability to power up from talking creates many possible scenarios through which we can seize(heh) the victory
What flaw is there to the tactic of "preform 1 completely unavoidable Artful Thorn via Nightmare Flight instantly teleporting you to be already partly-inside the Armament"? 1 artful thorn doesn't win the fight, bu the first hit is probably the hardest one to land and after that Procyon's not in prime form; since we can survive most Armaments out-of-shroud Ultimates with the Armor, assuming shroud-raising when wounded takes longer then 1.1 sword swings and Procyon is not one of the exceptions to that rule, we can then safely land a second thorn, and a person as inconvenienced as a suddenly-blinded man is essentially unable to meaningfully engage in combat.
 
*Hunger holds the invading forces hostage with blood bending*

"let them go!" - Procyon's pilot

Doom of the Tyrant activates

"No" - Hunger

25 words
 
As mentioned before, Procyon(and the Republic for that matter) is not in the position of authority over us in the current scenario. In addition, Hunger was already shown to be capable of recontextualizing situations as transactions in order to diffuse Tyrant, as shown when entering Lands of Myth.
What flaw is there to the tactic of "preform 1 completely unavoidable Artful Thorn via Nightmare Flight instantly teleporting you to be already partly-inside the Armament"? 1 artful thorn doesn't win the fight, bu the first hit is probably the hardest one to land and after that Procyon's not in prime form; since we can survive most Armaments out-of-shroud Ultimates with the Armor, assuming shroud-raising when wounded takes longer then 1.1 sword swings and Procyon is not one of the exceptions to that rule, we can then safely land a second thorn, and a person as inconvenienced as a suddenly-blinded man is essentially unable to meaningfully engage in combat.
That it could not do enough damage or otherwise fail? Thing with Shroud is that it's base concept is so simple and restricted that there's not much you can do to expand on it, which is why we are forced to come up with "have Aobaru blow up the walls of Myth" as "tactics".

This is in comparison to Seize the Day which has vastly higher number of possible strategies, especially once you establish acquiring picks as win condition, which base option doesn't do.
 
That it could not do enough damage or otherwise fail?
Artful Thorn, text:
When this rune is executed, briefly afterwards the practitioner's attack is guaranteed to cause a truly meaningful wound if it lands, no matter the scale of the enemy or the inapplicability of his weapon. Even a beast the size of a multiverse will be equivalently impaired to a human's losing of an eye or hand. At this level, only works on coherent enemies (can target the Rotbeast, but not "all Rotspawn.") Increasingly draining.

This is Praxis. a guarantee here is a guarantee, since Rank is Definitely a lower-rank magic system then it. If the attack lands, it's at least as problematic as cutting someones eye out would be. So, is the flaw it not landing? For that to happen, Procyon needs to beat the Empyreal Signs, since Nightmare Flight teleports and pierces lesser magic-systems. Is the flaw that the Armament will be able to paste us instantly right after we put out the equivalent of one of its eyes, despite that only its Ultimate is likely to be able to do that through the Armor and will likely require the non-trivial effort of putting up its Shroud?
 
After dinner concluded (the soup was delicious), Hunger stalked over to the Armament, Ring brimming with light. Slowly he ran his hand against the monstrosity's right shoulder-face, which in power-conserving mode slept ceaselessly through night and day. Verschlengorge's main head flicked open an eye, staring down with benevolent menace. It had a certain facility for making the most threatening expressions feel protective.

benevolent menace sounds pretty weird.

"He's not a dog, you know!" Letrizia came around his side, hands folded behind her. Her hair had, oddly, reverted to its natural shade. "You don't need to pet him to make him work!"

"Is that what dogs are to you? Just workers?"

"Huh?" She turned to face him, eyes wide. "Aren't they used in low-technology worlds to detect contraband?"
Letrizia, you're missing the point of pets!

Though I suppose you probably have something like improved tamagotchi and/or robot-pet instead... I'm not sure if I should think that's sad, or not.

"On Earth we kept them as pets. On my second world as well. Hmph. I say 'we,' but I don't think I ever had one. Civilization, human society did."

"Ah. I think most people these days use synthoids or virtual pets. Natural-born pets can't compete with their cuteness! Plus, it's less cruel than keeping natural organisms in a human-optimized environment. No need to forcibly neuter them in order to control the population."

"...Are you looking down on my barbaric ways?"

"Well, you're a product of your times. I suppose it's forgivable."
...when you put it that way... 😅

And yeah, that's a pretty good way of thinking about it. After all, as they say, "The past is a foreign country". Better not to apply modern ethics and morality to it, it just doesn't work.

Also I'm probably taking this a bit too seriously :V

"Or perhaps, somewhere along the line your civilization lost its way. Speaking of which, I'm trying to fix Verschlengorge's navigational system. You said it's Foremost technology, so it should be in its biologicals, correct?"

"Probably..." She leaned forward sternly. "Though I'm beginning to wonder if it's simply a function of his Rank. You're naturally able to navigate the Voyaging Realm yourself."

"May be. Still, four heads are better than one."

He began to circulate the equivalent of blood throughout the dizzyingly complex edifice beneath the Armament's skin. The head beneath his palm grunted discontentedly, shifting in its sleep.
healing attempt #1. Start!


"have to go out" pause...

I'm back to writing, only... 4 hours and a dinner later.

Ereadhihr. The Elder Implement. Though it had existed for eons of war, there was not so much as a scar or imperfection within the fantastically dense bio-circuitry of the Armament's body. Physical wounds existed, but what had healed had done so perfectly. Still, in some grimly intangible way he felt the weight of those eons as he communed with the creature, a legacy of savagery a billion times repeated, vigor and sheer heedless fury, the all-consuming urge to devour. So deep was the catalogue of its experiences that they'd been imprinted on its spiritual marrow, its very essence.

The Armament was no human veteran, whom war ground down to make hard and hollow. It was a being axiomatically designed for its purpose, and looked forward to battle and consumption with the invincible eagerness of deep instinct. To wade into chaos alongside its operator was its mission and inexhaustible purpose.

It could comprehend human minds, even feel compassion for their weakness and frailty, but that did not change the fundamental structure of its mind. A man could comprehend a beast, even feel pity for its misguided antics, without adopting the beast's values. So too with the Armament and its mortal operators. It was loyal to its pilot, and to its bonded Cursebearer, but understood that their minds were fundamentally alien to it.
Interesting insights into the Armament's nature.

He's sapient, but he's not human. He doesn't have human valued or morality. It's a being born and bred for war, and while it can feel positive emotions, value its attachments, it's bonds, to pilots and cursebearers... it's in a similar way to how a man can feel empathy for an animal. You like him, you value him, but you certainly do not share his priorities and values, and are often confused or disapproving of their behaviour.

It certainly makes sense for THIS Armament in particular. Verschle has the Decimator's Affliction. Not fighting means that he would have no way to mitigate it, which would slowly destroy everything around him, and once there wasn't enough to sustain him the curse would cannibalize him.

It's, in its most basic, a matter of survival.

It that sense it was not so different from the Forebear's Blade, or, presumably, even the synthoid pets Letrizia had commented upon. A tool created to fulfill a goal. He wondered what it was like, to enter the world with such unshakeable purpose.
eh. Good question. Humans are born with no real goal beyond survival and reproduction, and it's not even that rare for humans to go against these instinctual goals. We're purposeless machines in search of a goal, and if you put 3 humans together you could get 5 different possible goals, and 20 ways to achieve it!

The Armament's blood sang with amusement. It shifted its currents and eddies, directing circulation to a specific lobe within its primary head. Was that the navigational system he sought? He found that the structure of the lobe was oddly self-evident, as if its three-dimensional shape were itself a glyph in some instinctual Cursebearer language. It was a focusing organ for the application of Astral Rank towards spatial perception and manipulation. Not simply a tool for traversing the Voyaging Realm, but for positioning in spacetime as a whole.

He saw, too, that while the power of Blood could restore some functionality to the organ, there were hard limits to the work he could do without a much higher Rank. Technique alone was insufficient.

"The power of the Ring can repair some of it, but many capabilities remain locked," he said, frowning. "Still, we should be able to get around faster now. I'm curious how your technicians repair these organs. They seem to be well beyond the limits of human technology."

so... the higher our rank (our ring's power), the more we can heal it. Makes sense.

I wonder what will happen sooner, us reaching the Inner Sphere and getting the Armament repaired, or us becoming strong enough to repair it on our own?

Letrizia shrugged. "I think they use serums harvested from high-level Astral Beasts. For best efficiency, they have to be specially processed with Foremost artifacts. Verschlengorge can regenerate from eating enemies as well, but his effective Rank's too low to use that function right now."

mh... we have that +30% to rank growth now I think. A bit more rank, maybe ruling ring, and we could jumpstart him to the point he can heal itself..

He frowned. "Why is it that physical wounds can reduce its Rank at all? Typically you would need specialized attacks to do something like that. I could lose half my body and my Pressure would remain unaffected."

"Your guess is as good as mine! When he's at full strength, most injuries don't weaken his Pressure by much. But if you hurt him enough, I think he begins ablating Rank to preserve his fundamental structure. Unlike you, the Armament's not a complete person by itself. It was designed with a pilot in mind. Its astral shadow only exists because of its physical body, but it may be that high-grade Foremost technology can't exist in the physical world without some degree of support from Pressure. Kind of like how a black hole can't exist below a certain level of mass density. Since the two are co-dependent, it may have to sacrifice one side to shore up the other if catastrophic damage is taken."

short version: it uses the lost rank to preserve its fundamental abilities.

"How knowledgeable for a mere hobbyist."

"Hehe. It's important to be informed of things like this when you're entrusting your life to the device."

"How serious. You need a vacation."

"Hm? Not planning to head into the Temple tomorrow?"

"I can't, not in this state. I'll need a few days to integrate my new powers and see if I can fix my liver. This latest enemy gave me a lot of 'digest.' "

"You and Verschlengorge really are two peas in a pod. This swordsman seems to have made an impression on you. You don't usually talk about your foes."

"His name was Vanreir Amarlt. I had the sense he was fighting to protect someone dear to him. Most of the outriders carry more mercenary objectives."

"Amarlt?! Huh, to think some of them landed around here."

"Hm?"
He REALLY made an impression on Hunger. I'm a bit sad we didn't up taking him with inheritor. Long term we might even have been able to give him back a body, after all we'd have the most important bit (the soul) with us!

Then again we're already planning to resurrect all our lost friends in the VERY distant future, so what's stopping us from also doing the same for the "worthy" enemies we think didn't actually deserve to die?

Nothing is beyond a Cursebearer's power after all, given enough time. At some point even true resurrection will become a trivial thing to us, at least if the kill wasn't done through high-level conceptual annihilation of some kind. And even then, we just need an higher level of conceptual power.

Few things are truly absolute.


Also, we're about to learn a bit more about his family!

"They used to be a big deal in the Republic. The Republic makes a fuss about not recognizing noble titles, but they're an oligarchy whose upper ranks are still filled with the high nobility. The Amarlt family used to command Procyon, the Plenary Armament, but fell from power a few centuries ago. Procyon's actually stationed here in the Voyaging Realm right now!" She went quiet, perhaps remembering that the pilot - likely a friend - could well have betrayed her.
FINALLY!

CONFIRMATION THAT DIFFERENT ARMAMENTS COME WITH DIFFERENT CURSES!

..mh.. the plenary armament seems like a relatively easy one to deal with (in terms of curse management). You simply have to keep him mostly isolated from other people, and be carefull not to expose the same beings to it too many times.

Dealing with the natural strenghtening of the curse might be a problem though... I wonder how they deal with that. Maybe it grows slowly enough that it doesn't really matter, or that they can somehow keep up with the mitigation attempts?

He coughed. "No match for you, I take it."

"Of course not! ...So, why've you decided you need a vacation?"

"I'd like to see the sights now that we're here," he deadpanned. "We're planning to overthrow their civilization, that doesn't mean we can't enjoy ourselves in the vicinity. And now that your Armament's spatial organ is fixed, we can do just that. Anything in particular you'd like to do?"

"It'd be nice if we could recruit some mages... dangerous, though. I'd love to see some of the more exotic parts of the Voyaging Realm! The farmlands we passed through on our way here were beautiful, but a bit plain."

Yeah, we could definitely use a few mages, though it heavily depends on what magic systems they know
"How does that work, exactly? I'm surprised your civilization hasn't made a concerted effort to extract every mage they can from this place, especially if you don't have native magicians."

...that's a surprisingly valid question. I'd definitely want to take and develop as many magic systems for my space empire as possible after all, especially if they synergize well with each other.

At the very least I'd want to try and catalogue them, and hire a few mages from the most promising ones to teach my people!

"Ah, well... it was tried. The Voyaging Realm will tolerate some level of exploitation, but industrial-scale extraction of magics leads it to act out in increasingly apocalyptic ways... these days we're mostly limited to those mages that find their way to our City, and even then half the magics only work inside the Realm itself. There are unsanctioned efforts to extract more, the Republic especially deploys strike teams for that purpose, but the casualty rates are horrific. It's frequently a death sentence even if you succeed."
..interesting.

And yet, wouldn't just bringing a few mages back (with a decent collection of books) be enough to at least start to build a magic school?

Of course not all systems can really be taught that easily... take Gisena's findross. She can't really teach it. OR Astral Rank, that's mostly gained in battle. Some systems are probably simply innate, and can be taught at all to the people outside the Voyaging realms..

Or even standard d&d arcane magic. At low levels it would be thoroughly unimpressive, especially in a sci-fy setting, and the high levels are very hard to reach, and can't really be taught conventionally beyond a certain point... It would require massive investments to artificially power level a mage, even assuming simply having him kill monsters for exp would work in a realistic setting.

"Let's hope you aren't doomed for bringing two such mages outside the Realm, then. Gisena's findross is self-contained, so she should be alright. As for me..."

"You shouldn't even qualify, Lord Hunger! You only have an unusually high Astral Rank, which the Foremost themselves were theorized to exhibit in select individuals. That's hardly magecraft. And, while you're able to efficiently channel that Rank through your artifacts in unusually reliable ways, in principle that's no different from an Armament's Shroud-derived unique abilities."
...If we took Philosopher's wreath or Inheritor would it have been different? Usually I'd say that, as Cursebearers, we probably wouldn't count, but then again... Apocryphal.

"Why do I feel vaguely insulted? And just 'Hunger' is fine, Letrizia, we've talked about this."

"Hey, the path of magecraft is not for everyone! Wouldn't it interfere with your teamwork alongside Miss Gisena?"

"Just you wait. And here I was going to teach you magic once I'd acquired some."

"W-who'd want to learn magic from you? I'd much prefer Miss Gisena as a teacher."

"Good, that's one thing taken care of. We set out first thing in the morning."

"Hmph. I'll become the best sorcerous apprentice ever! That'll show you!"

"Yes, show me up. We could use the firepower."

---
Joke's on you, Letrizia! You can't teach Gisena's sorcery!

..well, you can't teach the STANDARD version at least. Gisena DID just improve upon it...

The winners are [X] Vigor Itself and [X] Vacation. How well could Hunger heal Verschlengorge via its circulatory system alone?

Vigor itself, uh? I suppose we can use the charisma, though I think I would have spent the 2 arete for Exalted Spirit instead, which also buffed our allies a bit.

Also we're going on a vacation! yay!

[ ] To Rank 4.5

50% chance of basic encounters
50% chance of modestly productive encounters

[ ] To Rank 5.25 - Req. 2 Arete

50% chance of productive encounters
30% chance of moderately challenging encounters
20% chance of significantly challenging encounters

[ ] To Rank 5.75 - Req. 2 Arete, -1 future pick

50% chance of moderately challenging encounters
30% chance of significantly challenging encounters
10% chance of overwhelming dangerous encounters
10% chance of major bonus (worth ~2 Arete)

Higher Ranks mean quicker travel time, stronger Astral Beasts and a more useful mech overall. Rank >5 enables Totality control method and potential access to more information.

mh... Totality control seems worth the 2 arete, and the 5.25 rank doesn't seem too bad.

On the other hand I AM really tempted by the Rank 5.75. Letrizia has been lagging behind after all. that 10% of Overwhelming dangerous encounter IS risky, but I'm sort of willing to take it.

What did they encounter on their attempted scenic escapade?

[ ] A Besieged Colony - This group of Imperial separatists, wishing to establish a colony in the Voyaging Realm for reasons of liberty and the likely vain hope of access to magic, founded a flourishing resort enclave around a natural hot springs. Carving out a space for themselves via plasma-fire and Armor Prototype, they've managed to survive for a few decades in this sometimes-harsh and often shifting land. Miraculously, magic has appeared among the new generation of children born in the Voyaging Realm, but alongside it a shadow has fallen over their colony, the titanic Rotbeast whose army of cadaverous spawn lays unending siege to their once-beautiful community.

*Encounter Difficulty: Moderate (if fighting spawn), Somewhat High (if directly attacking Rotbeast)
*Access to ruggedized Imperial Tech (moderately useful to Gisena and Letrizia, mostly useless for you), potential access to spellcasters, access to Elixir Springs.
*Elixir Springs: 70% chance of curing one Condition, 30% chance of curing two.
*~15% independent chance of a major bonus

This is a decent one. Not too risky, possibly cures our condition, possible access to another magic system (likely temporary, but who knows what they can do. Maybe they can do permanent buffs for example), some better weapons for Gisena (and tech to learn from...)

It even offers an alternative point of view on the Empire, which is nice.

Not too bad. Let's see the next one though.
[ ] A Wandering Magus - Something of a rarity, a lone wandering magician with which you've crossed paths. Enigmatic but cheerful, she's traveling to the Temple to investigate the death of her big sister, whom her prognostications say has departed this mortal coil. Her powers of divination are substantial, but her combat strength is lacking, or so she claims. She'll happily join you and help you breach the Temple if you assist in her investigations.

*Diplomatic Difficulty: Low, but Tyrant Proc possible (10-30%)
*Combat Difficulty: ???
*Foresight: Halves travel times, improves encounter effectiveness by 10-20% in all but a few scenarios. Will help you find an ideal vacation spot!
*Oracular Secrets: She may be willing to divest the techniques behind her lore-based magic, for a price. Goods of sufficient quantity and quality would suffice, or a period of contractual service.

This is interesting.. I wonder if we could have Gisena learn her magic as well? Or Letrizia?

Or both?

And if we could learn the basics without too much difficulty, combat progression could do the rest if we wanted it to.
[ ] A Republic Kill-Team - Surely this could only be a coincidence. Just as you and Letrizia were discussing the black ops extraction teams of the Republic, you encounter a badly ravaged force limping alongside the road, their Armor Prototypes charred and smoking from some recently unpleasant encounter. Wounded, weary, and far from resupply, nonetheless these represent very nearly the cutting-edge of human-scale combat capability in the Sphere. It would be unwise to provoke them.

*Diplomatic Difficulty: Medium, but Tyrant proc possible (10-20%)
*Combat Difficulty: Extreme. The group contains experimental-grade Armor Prototypes with effective Combat Rank 6.5, outfitted with bleeding-edge Astraltech augs and the finest armor-portable weaponry that modern science can produce. Crippled as they are, they would still be a formidable opponent... or irreplaceable ally.
*Bitchin': Hunger thinks these powered armors are cool and is more likely to enter negotiations with an amiable disposition. Letrizia remarks that Empire designs are cooler.
*Custody: The Kill-Team is "escorting" a hermetically sealed cocoon within which a magic user resides, "for their own protection."
*Aftermath: You're pretty sure operators like this come with nondisclosure warrants. Though you may work together for a time, they may turn their guns on you after the city is in sight, though Letrizia's not sure they would actually attack an Armament pilot...

Ok, so, in order.

The current limit of armor prototypes is rank 6.5

Letrizia is jealous because we're showing appreciation for their armors :rofl:

Yeah, they're escortin a mage. Willingly, I'm certain... I suppose tyrant proc would be us asking to let us speak to him/her, and then saying no.

...Are we sure Apocryphal is still sleeping? I suppose we wouldn't even have a chance of talking things out peacefully if it was active...

All things considered I'm not interested in them. I'd go with either the imperial separatists or the lone magus.

Probably the lone magus, a new magic system is worth more than some equipment and a chance of healing to me.



Thread participation has yielded a substantial bonus:

[ ] +1 pick at next spending point
[ ] 1 re-roll to be used on checks this update
[ ] +1 Arete, -10% Tyrant proc chance this update

I think I'd take the re-roll with the most difficult Verschle Rank option and magus. Other builds can obviously work as well obviously, but I'm mostly against the Republic.

1227 words.
 
If Seize fails Hunger can still just fight Procyon, albeit without the significant advantage of a first strike. Hunger doesn't think the chance of Seize's social phase succeeding is greater than the total chance of victory via Shroud.
 
Of course it is rebuttal. Ur-Mother would have defeated Forebear through the power of her First Language, while Armament is not especially vulnerable to just talking, so it has no reason not to spend few microsecond chatting if that could lead to it not having to deploy Shroud, spend time breaking down Walls of Myth and losing bunch of very expensive support for no reason.
It very much is not a rebuttal:
Me said:
How'd that work for the Ur-mother?
The fact is that an Armament, like the Forebear, can cheerfully talk for a few microseconds and then deploy the shroud to slap down Hunger. The point of []His Shroud was Down is to capitalize on the value of a surprise attack. Initiating diplomacy throws away that surprise attack.


Ninja'd by the QM:

Rihaku said:
If Seize fails Hunger can still just fight Procyon, albeit without the significant advantage of a first strike. Hunger doesn't think the chance of Seize's social phase succeeding is greater than the total chance of victory via Shroud.
 
hm. What if Hunger does the first few strikes of Shroud's plan as a show of his power, and then attempts to do a Seize-style negotiation once he gets shaken off Procyon's back/disengages/starts to feel drained? Then he gets the first strike and he's demonstrated his ability to harm and power over both Armament and common man, so they have a lot more reason to negotiate with him tactically. If he can play it off right, they may even think he's a lot more powerful then he is.
 
Cardinals One, Two, and Three added to the quester magics spreadsheet, on their own tab since they're a community project.
 
Now would be a pretty good time for Hunger to bust out a new form. Form of Rage only cost 1 pick too, so if Rihaku gives up his hoarded pick it should be do-able. And there's no better time than your literal death to crawl out of the grave with a sweet new form. Wraith Form got sidelined and Form of Rage was traded away but I'm still a fan.
 
It's cool but I doubt merely tripling our stats and gaining .25 rank will do the trick against Procyon, if it were to proc.

It's still good though, I'd take it here over nothing.
 
Fun Fact: before I read the story proper, I had read some of the statements on the first page(mostly under The Foremost until 'the voyaging realm' or thereabouts. I then went to read Even Further Beyond, so there was some time between then and when I read this quest. This and other things lead to my forming a set of beliefs about the quests that is entirely different from the actual content. For instance, I thought that The Sword That Ends The World was chosen, because I had read someone talking about Hungers access to Praxis, and so on.
So, I bring you... a summary of those ideas in not-story form.
The Man felt the weight of the curses set upon him, and the power of progression within. with it all came the Geas of Indenture, which pulled him off to a new world. Scarcely had the transition begun before it was over, leaving him standing in a stone passageway.
//...I literally spent over thirty minutes on those... two lines, even though they're practically just rewordings of the intro, so I'm going to stop trying to write it like a story now. I hadn't realised I was quite that bad at writing stories when I'm trying to make it in first person about a character that isn't mine...
so. Hunger finds himself in a Dungeon world. but not like he is now; Instead, it's more like one of those dungeon-core story dungeons, with stone passageways and treasure-chests and spawning monsters, and the dungeon world is a planet made entirely of dungeon. By the Foremost, because I'd read that part of the statements. Hunger would go on repeated excursions into the Dungeon, which would probably have been rather more samey then the ones in this quest were, and would have an adventuring team; excursions were imagined as highly granular, with returns to town extremely rare and something to take advantage of when they come. Definitely imagined as having had some companion-remittences, because Sword That Ends The World is a recipe for already being dead normally; Since, say, Gisena, is relevant in combat even at her tier 0 to Hungers Kings Scepter start, two of those would probably be enough to handle the first combat encounter or few. The Human Sphere was imagined as a seperate planetoid more like earth, with grass, cities, etcetra (mostly just cities. covering almost all of it.), and magically attached to the Voyaging-Realm Dungeon, which people would delve into all the time to bring back riches. Other random assumptions... Hunger would be trying to manage time in the Dungeon with Human Sphere and time in neither (means of accessing neither-time during geas... idunno?) to avoid Decimating the Dungeon- so he would still have things to fight and loot- or the Sphere- to avoid justifying his extermination-because I hadn't realized the Decimators affliction could be held at bay by killing specific enemies, and had figured, like slumber, most mitigation options would boil down to 'reduce amount of this' except with reducing drain-amount instead of reducing sleep-amount. I think there was imagined as some amount of problems fitting the 'robot' hunger would 'get in' in the dungeon, but I'm not sure.
Originally that was going to be like, several pages of adventure showing the idea by way of context. But then I spent 30 minutes on two lines of text because I apparently have quite a bit of trouble trying to write characters I don't know and who don't exist, so instead you get a summary of a half-remembered idea.
 
The 'Final Form' idea is very cool. Tenfold Echo (0P, 7A) might be a similarly effective boost, adding 1/3 again to Hunger's Strength & Agility stats (boosting both reaction speed & the power of Ruin). Whether we take Final Form, Tenfold Echo, or FDS, there seems to be a strong push to use Arete + snap-buy something to improve our chances of squeezing through without using the Wish.

However, even with the mysterious missing pick opening up our options it's hard to know how much our chances would improve. Would Tenfold Echo be enough to reduce the DC below 95*? What about FDS? Even if the missing pick let us equalize the Rank gap with Form of Rage / Final Form, we'd still end up facing an Armament's stats + shroud.

*Note: We don't know whether the DC is 95 - it could be even higher!
 
It's interesting that what shatters the blade is Hunger burning his selfhood. Gisena speculated at this

What would be left of Hunger if he burned his selfhood to strike true, shattering the Blade again? Was this his fate, a cycle of endless repetition, every Tyrant felled at the cost of his identity? She would not accept that.

But we finally got proof here, since the blade shatters again with Follow Through.

The sword was unbroken when Hunger first abducted it, so presumably the Hidden Ones were unable to break it themselves. They could kill the Forebear, break the Procession, and prevent the Sword in the Stone power from activating (recall that Hunger found the sword in the tomb sitting on its side), but they couldn't break the sword. So they found Hunger, who is either the Forebear reborn or someone so good at abducting that he's since become the Forebear reborn, gave him the blade then just made his life miserable until he finally burned his selfhood and broke it.

...

It's also interesting how some the curses Hunger was initially offered line up with the Forebear.

The Geas of Indenture: The Forebear had the Procession.
Affliction of Slumber: The Forebear had his Foresleep.
Brand of the Champion: The Forebear was called a cosmic janitor, and was required to go around "fixing up" universes.
Doom of the Tyrant: Uttermost blocked us from mitigating this, implying a connection of some sort.

No known match for Lunacy, Decimation, Plenary, or Apocryphal. Hunger only had to take 4 curses total so maybe the Forebear was similar? Pretty tenuous though.
 
It's interesting that what shatters the blade is Hunger burning his selfhood. Gisena speculated at this



But we finally got proof here, since the blade shatters again with Follow Through.

The sword was unbroken when Hunger first abducted it, so presumably the Hidden Ones were unable to break it themselves. They could kill the Forebear, break the Procession, and prevent the Sword in the Stone power from activating (recall that Hunger found the sword in the tomb sitting on its side), but they couldn't break the sword. So they found Hunger, who is either the Forebear reborn or someone so good at abducting that he's since become the Forebear reborn, gave him the blade then just made his life miserable until he finally burned his selfhood and broke it.

...

It's also interesting how some the curses Hunger was initially offered line up with the Forebear.

The Geas of Indenture: The Forebear had the Procession.
Affliction of Slumber: The Forebear had his Foresleep.
Brand of the Champion: The Forebear was called a cosmic janitor, and was required to go around "fixing up" universes.
Doom of the Tyrant: Uttermost blocked us from mitigating this, implying a connection of some sort.

No known match for Lunacy, Decimation, Plenary, or Apocryphal. Hunger only had to take 4 curses total so maybe the Forebear was similar? Pretty tenuous though.
Was the Forebear cursed? I know he had a link to Earth but it isn't totally clear to me that he was affiliated with the Accursed
 
Was the Forebear cursed? I know he had a link to Earth but it isn't totally clear to me that he was affiliated with the Accursed

The Forebear was almost certainly not a Cursebearer; in his interlude he mentions struggling for the slightest bit of power, which makes him being a combat type or progression type unlikely.

My theory is that his Procession was cast on him by the same being(s) that put the Geas of Indenture on the Accursed. Maybe they threw in a couple other curses while they were at it? Hopefully Hunger will live long enough to get some answers.
 
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