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A Simple Transaction I

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Alternatively, maybe every Armament is a nexus of Blue (aka the Realm of Forms?) and Ber could have done what he did to any Armament he found assuming it didn't fight back. Augustine, the Arcanist, and Ber all seem to treat Armaments as juice-boxes they can casually suck the magical powers out of without issue.

Letrezia did claim all the true Armaments had curses, so maybe the Fish would have gotten one once it finished growing up?

Rihaku said:
"Ereadhihr, the Elder Implement. They weren't just a weapon to the Foremost. The Foremost could harness them for countless tasks, bend realms both physical and Astral to their whims, apply the Interdict of Cognition that immunizes us from rampant intelligences, and so much more!"

He turned to glance at Verschlengorge. "Did they pull the ladder up behind them? Prevent anyone from making more?"

"Ah, no, we don't think they did anything like that. But... it's complicated. To create a true Armament, an entity with the potential to reach such elevated Rank, there's a special component involved. A sort of... Curse that's inextricable from its core essence. Verschlengorge has one as well, of course. It's called... the Affliction of the Decimator."
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And Versch has blue light.

Rihaku said:
Verschlengorge's eyes flashed blue, a light so harrowing and sublime that it struck him insensate, lake and sun and sky rendered an amateur's daubing before the absolute truth of that blue, this world - all worlds - cut away like an unpeeling rind to reveal the blinding firmament beneath.

"Praehihr." The Armament spoke, breaking the spell, and bowed its head; slowly the blue bled from its eyes until they wholly reverted, mere gold once more.

"Prae... hihr." Letrizia spelled out, somewhat stunned at the pace of recent occurences. "The prefix indicates 'one who is cursed,' but with an appellation of grandeur, like royalty. The suffix -hihr can only mean 'implement.' Praehihr... the best translation would be something like, Accursed Implement."

Accursed Implement. He directed his gaze heavenward, knowing how futile that was. "Yes. That sounds about right."

"This is incredible," Letrizia said slowly. "I've never heard of an outsider with so deep a connection to the Foremost. And to be familiar enough that they had a name for your kind! I can't believe this is all a coincidence. Something must have bound you together with Verschlengorge. The synchronicity of your Astral shadow, perhaps! This could be a major breakthrough in the science of Astral Rank..."
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If so, then each Curse can only support a single Armament might still be true, but there's no Ordinal Spiral Armament or anything like that.

...

Letrezia thinks the connection between Hunger and Versch might come from the synchronicity of their Astral shadows. Not sure how to exploit that.

Gisena is quite good at nullifying Curses. Given how critical the Curse is to any Armament, what would happen if she was able to (partially) nullify Procyon's Curse? Would it instantly become weaker? Is that even possible?
 
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vali said:
Gisena is quite good at nullifying Curses. Given how critical the Curse is to any Armament, what would happen if she was able to (partially) nullify Procyon's Curse? Would it instantly become weaker? Is that even possible?
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That's a really good point actually, a lot of Gisena's time has been spent trying to learn how to nullify curses. Procyon is intrinsically linked to the Plenary Brand, any nullification on that should have major implications. My only worry is that Gisena would have to have found some kind of common theme around curses, since she has no experience with the Plenary Brand. Nullifying a curse with zero prep sounds pretty miraculous, but it could cripple the armaments power, potentially even drop its rank enough to disable its shroud. That would be a game changer.
 
Here is Gisena mitigating a curse:

Rihaku said:
"Sssh. I'm examining your Curses. It's a very delicate procedure, so please stay still! Wouldn't want your powers to be amputated."
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The line about amputating his powers may be a joke, but it does line up with how Letrezia said that the Curse is inextricable from the Armament's core essence. A suddon amputation of Procyon's power would be pretty great.

GenericName said:
My only worry is that Gisena would have to have found some kind of common theme around curses, since she has no experience with the Plenary Brand. Nullifying a curse with zero prep sounds pretty miraculous
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Hunger has 4 curses but she could distinguish between them pretty easily, enough to not mitigate Tyrant. And that was before she ascended and all her already high stats went through the roof. Plus Procyon broadcasts its fundamental nature 24/7, it has no secrets.

The biggest issue with trying to attack the Armament's curse is the fact that the Armament will be trying to kill you the entire time. If GIsena needs both time and care for Procyon, or if Rank can resist her nullification, then we're in trouble.

We aren't completely reliant on Gisena though, Hunger might be able to mitigate Procyon's curse as well though via the power of Ruin, which as you'll recall granted some mitigation to all his Curses. Maybe take a half-step into the realm of forms and then smash downwards on the Curse.

(Obviously this applies to Fervenweirr and other Armaments as well.)

...

As a side note, I definitely think that the reason Gisena didn't mitigate Doom of the Tyrant is because it's protecting Hunger from Forebear contamination. The Forebear was a king, an authority and a law to himself, so Tyrant means that Hunger cannot even acknowledge him. As long as Hunger considers the Forebear to be an external being he's safe.

Rihaku said:
"The Doom of the Tyrant. It forbids me from acknowledging or obeying any external authority, law, rule or custom.
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Alright, we need just 17 people to vote Advanced Research :V
vali said:
As a side note, I definitely think that the reason Gisena didn't mitigate Doom of the Tyrant is because it's protecting Hunger from Forebear contamination. The Forebear was a king, an authority and a law to himself, so Tyrant means that Hunger cannot even acknowledge him. As long as Hunger considers the Forebear to be an external being he's safe.
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That was general assumption from start, however, recently I theorized that it might be something else. Because Gisena specifically mentions "nature" of Tyrant's Curse, rather than it doing something specific. It could be that Tyrant is the reason why we can access Forebear/Praxis in the first place.
 
Silver of Evening might be our best chance.

Rihaku said:
Once per sidereal month, perfectly defeat any one hostile effect to which the wearer would otherwise be subject. Applied against a Curse, grants two stages of mitigation for one day and one night. May apply even to the Doom of the Tyrant.
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Note that Silver has since been upgraded to work once per week. We used it last since Augustine, no clue if it's recharged yet, and it's possible Hunger wouldn't be able to apply it to Procyon's curse. But if we can use it then it's our best shot, since it gives two mitigation stages, is in some way powerful enough to maybe work even against Tyrant, and is applied instantly.

Use Praxis for speed and to allow us to target it conceptually, apply Silver to the enemy Armament's Curse, it should then be weakened by 2 stages and we might stand a chance.
 
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GenericName said:
I'd imagine the pilot has to be a major weak point of any armament, but knowing the foremost armaments are probably built with that in mind. Where the pilot is located is most likely the most heavily armored section of any armament. The shroud is also likely to defend against esoteric effects attempting to bypass that armor. Worth bringing up regardless, the pilot is a much squishier target than the armament itself.
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I remember that starting in Rank 5, pilots can fuse/be subsumed in to the Armament's Astral Shadow allowing them among other things be protected from being targeted directly, requiring special techniques to be harmed and also directly using the Armament's superior physical stats instead of relying on puny human reaction speeds and mundane, albeit technologically advanced, control system to pilot the mech.

vali said:
Note that Silver has since been upgraded to work once per week. We used it last since Augustine, no clue if it's recharged yet, and it's possible Hunger wouldn't be able to apply it to Procyon's curse. But if we can use it then it's our best shot, since it gives two mitigation stages, is in some way powerful enough to maybe work even against Tyrant, and is applied instantly
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The timeskip between defeating Augustine to now is about 2 to 3 weeks I think? In any case, we got a single perfect defence for this fight.
 
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Um. Well. The reason Gisena can't mitigate the Tyrant's Doom is because the Vanreir 4-pick Defining Advancement, Forebear's Blade - Uttermost, forbids the mitigation of it. :V
Rihaku said:
[ ] Forebear's Blade - Uttermost (4 picks)

Focus beyond absolute focus. To cut what cannot be cut. To pierce what cannot be pierced. To go further and even further beyond in the unrelenting pursuit of perfection. To exert every iota of self, turn every faculty of purpose, bind every testament of will towards a single, unswerving ideal: that is what it means to do one's uttermost. There are no compromises for he who walks the path of the blade.

Do, even if it cannot be done.

Defining Advancement. You may only have three Defining Advancements.

Cannot mitigate the Doom of the Tyrant beyond its original state
Expends and sacrifices the Form of Rage
Increase by 30% the value of all Rank +s
Reduce by 30% to the value of Luck, Protection, Wisdom and Charisma +s
+++++++Willpower, ++All Other Stats
First Blade: Restores the Forebear's Blade. Apply the effects of the Fell-Handed Stroke, including modifiers, to all basic attacks with no surcharge. You may upgrade [A Thousand Cuts] to [Cut Through] for the difference in their Arete costs.
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Cannot mitigate the Doom of the Tyrant beyond its original state
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Before that happened, we were able to pick the Tyrant's Doom as one of the Curses to mitigate. Note that even in the update where Hunger reveals the Curses he suffers under (quoted in one of the posts on this page) the Doom of the Tyrant is one of the Curses up for selection.


And as for my guess about the "nature of the Tyrant's Curse", maybe that probably refers to Gisena going 'Oh, so this is how his Tyrant's Doom manifests. It's... kind of screwing him over, in ways that he can't even acknowledge or realize or understand.' But just telling him about it would not help solve the problem. Not if it's something like 'You act like X in situation Y' because, again, the Curse itself would not let him act differently. So ... I've actually been wondering if the 'favor' she's going to ask, is to get a big enough favor from him, something that would have enough 'weight' that when she acts him 'Listen to me when I ask for X in Situation Y', he'll agree to it and thus bypass the Tyrant's Doom that way because it is his own promise binding him to do so. Or it could just be that she'll ask him to delay exiting from the Voyaging Realm for a bit, because of something she knows, but which she might not think would be convincing enough in an argument so she's hedging her bets.

'course, the other guess of mine is her asking him to make a stop by her home in order to rescue it. It's a big thing for her to ask, though at the same time is uncertain of when Hunger would get around to it because, well, yeah.

I guess another possibility would be to get him to take a break, like somebody guessed. ... Hrm. Another possibility might be she'll ask him to hold off on using the Realm of Evening immediately, as she had some kind of hunch about when the best/most opportune time would be to use it, due to foresight or the Ring of Truth or something? But that may have kind of gone out of the window as Procyon showed up immediately.
 
Rah13 said:
And with that, I officially declare my retirement from the voting markets. I'm cashing out before any capital gains taxes are raised!!

We, as a society, have moved beyond the needs of Vote Markers. From now on, the fruits of the labour of the Arete miners shall only be used by the miners themselves. Join me comrades.
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Thank you for taking the bait and using your vote markers. The first step to defeat the Death Gang is defanging them, remove their weapons (the vote markers). You seem like a decent fellow, I hate to destroy you.

I have a dream. That one day every person in this thread will control their own destiny. A land of the truly free, dammit. A thread of omakes and action, not vote markers! Ruled by omake strength, not democracy! Where the law changes to suit the individual, not the other way around. Where power and justice are back where they belong: in the hands of the people! Where every man is free to think - to act - for himself! Fuck Gang pride! Fuck the previous quests! FUCK ALL OF IT! AST is diseased. Rotten to the core. There's no saving it - we need to pull it out by the roots. Wipe the slate clean. BURN IT DOWN! And from the ashes, a new AST will be born. Evolved, but untamed! The weak will be purged and the strongest will thrive - free to live as they see fit, they'll make AST great again! In my new AST, people will vote and mine for what they BELIEVE! Not for Arete, not for marker obligation! Not for what they're told is right. Every man will be free to fight his own wars and never vote for another person but himself!

[X] Aabcehmu
 
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The only price Not Dying gang must pay for their vanity is to pursue entertaining deeds when not threatened.

The promise of greater power always supersedes, but the option is there.
 
[X] Call Up
[X] Aggressive Research

I'm still pretty firm on Call Up but in the event that Hold the Line wins, it wouldn't be the worst thing to throw a coin in the wishing well, even if the Rank burn truly strings.
 
mhmm

People, I don't think that Hold is a good idea without taking supplemental actions that make Hold actually sort of viable.

Please vote for Research. I'd rather see Call Up win than Hold without research.
 
Sharkey_smt said:
We have a pay 2 win option - defensive wish and the guy who paid for it is pushing for the hype fight. Kinda disingenuous to pretend that Hold is not viable due to outside context solution
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But I don't want to use defensive wish. /shrug.jpg

I also already expressed my worries about Hunger using the wish only as the very last resort, after sustaining critical injuries and so on and on few days before.

IDK what is disenginious about "I think that X is good idea with Z, but not otherwise."
 
I definitely think hold the line is doable without aggressive research. Specifically I think the curse nullification idea has a lot of potential. The armaments power is intrinsically linked to a curse, the curse lends to their legend and that's why they have such massive rank. Attacking and nullifying their curse is attacking their power at the source, and it's an attack we're incredibly well suited towards. It's Gisenas entire schtick, and the power of ruin is also capable of attacking those esoteric connections.
 
You becoming next president of your country is also "doable". Just because something has a chance of happening doesn't mean that thing is likely to happen. The reason for doing Advanced Research is because, should it work out, it massively increase our ability to meaningfully oppose Procyon instead of hoping that semantics will save the day.
 
GenericName said:
I definitely think hold the line is doable without aggressive research. Specifically I think the curse nullification idea has a lot of potential. The armaments power is intrinsically linked to a curse, the curse lends to their legend and that's why they have such massive rank. Attacking and nullifying their curse is attacking their power at the source, and it's an attack we're incredibly well suited towards. It's Gisenas entire schtick, and the power of ruin is also capable of attacking those esoteric connections.
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It wouldn't surprise me if the latent malice in Curses made it trivial to negate positive effects from having them. The Hidden Masters and their jackass friends seem pretty good with one-sided afflictions.

I'm a bit worried that Procyon might secretly be the Utility mecha, with the Plenary Brand giving Rank-based reality warping similar to our Ring of Power. But that's mostly unfounded by evidence, only the absence of other mentioned Armaments having utility focus leading me to consider it.

[X] Aggressive Research

What's our plan if it turns out to be the wizard robo?
 
Going by Letrizia, all Armaments had something like a utility focus on the times of the Foremost; the people of the Human Sphere have just lost access to those abilities for whatever reason.
 
Box Lunch said:
It wouldn't surprise me if the latent malice in Curses made it trivial to negate positive effects from having them. The Hidden Masters and their jackass friends seem pretty good with one-sided afflictions.

I'm a bit worried that Procyon might secretly be the Utility mecha, with the Plenary Brand giving Rank-based reality warping similar to our Ring of Power. But that's mostly unfounded by evidence, only the absence of other mentioned Armaments having utility focus leading me to consider it.

[X] Aggressive Research

What's our plan if it turns out to be the wizard robo?
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Armaments have abilities based on their Curses. With Procyon, that should mean mental attacks and perhaps some sensory fuckery. However, with Verse we saw additional abilities such as healing himself by eating opponents.

Additionally, it's more mundane gear might also provide some utility. Forcefields, anti-gravity fields, creating plasteel barricades, flashbangs etc.
 
Just base rank actually is capable of some utility effects as a part of its "Everything is better with Rank" portfolio; Hunger created Mantle of The Evening with just his raw Rank manipulation and Not-Yet-Ring-of-Blood as a focus, for example.

They just don't compare at all in comparison to what Rank can do when channeled through specialized tools or abilities like Ring of Blood or Sharpbright.
 
Wolfy said:
You becoming next president of your country is also "doable". Just because something has a chance of happening doesn't mean that thing is likely to happen. The reason for doing Advanced Research is because, should it work out, it massively increase our ability to meaningfully oppose Procyon instead of hoping that semantics will save the day.
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It's like you didn't even read the tactics posting I did in favor of being snarky and abrasive lmao. Also the president thing is such a terrible comparison I have no words.
 
Prospalz said:
IDK what is disenginious about "I think that X is good idea with Z, but not otherwise."
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You are correct, I misread your comment. I apologize.

GenericName said:
I definitely think hold the line is doable without aggressive research. Specifically I think the curse nullification idea has a lot of potential. The armaments power is intrinsically linked to a curse, the curse lends to their legend and that's why they have such massive rank
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Box Lunch said:
It wouldn't surprise me if the latent malice in Curses made it trivial to negate positive effects from having them. The Hidden Masters and their jackass friends seem pretty good with one-sided afflictions.
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Versch Curse is currently inactive (synchronized to Hunger's) and he is not getting weaker. We synchronized the curse when he was Rank 4. Trying to mitigate a Curse and hope that it weakens the Armament is a big :???: to me.
 
Sharkey_smt said:
Versch Curse is currently inactive (synchronized to Hunger's) and he is not getting weaker. We synchronized the curse when he was Rank 4. Trying to mitigate a Curse and hope that it weakens the Armament is a big :???: to me.
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I mean... Versch is also weakened and doesn't have access to his shroud or his curse related abilities? The curse is explicitly stated to be what allows armaments to reach their absurd rank, when compared to the more readily produced prototype armor. Being linked with an active cursebearer also seems like a different scenario to me.
 
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