I do note that you evaded my question about Armor. Without Armor we'd just lose instantly. We'd have exactly zero chance fighting against Procyon. It's unquestionably stronger than 1 Rank here. Don't even bother replying if you can't refute this because it easily proves that 6th Sign is better than 1 Rank.
As things stand armor doesn't let Hunger win or even survive either. That's what a 5 pick fight is, all but suicidal.
The Armament is stronger, faster, tougher and higher Rank. Hungers Armor and a stronger attack won't be enough, armor and greater agility won't be enough.
A single forther improved statistics will be insufficient against an Armament. To have a reasonable chance against an Armament Hunger must be holistically more capable and dramatically so. The best option he has for that is gaining AoF 3 or something comparable such as a Praxis based refinement of battle.
Deathly Star 2.0 won't be enough. Agility 2.0 won't be enough. Even if the 6th sign just happens to debuff an oponnents Rank dramatically that still might not be enough if he gains it by lowering his own Rank as well.
Loss of 1 Rank is a long term concern for Hunger's abilities: it affects strategic decisions like what should happen next in the plot. Gaining a Sixth [Evening Sky] Sign is a short term benefit for Hunger's abilities: it is likely to provide a combat-relevant, rank agnostic ability.
For the five Evening Sky Signs that we have already, the casting times are:
15 minutes to charge, but can be deployed instantly. Explicitly relevant in combat.
0 minutes to charge, takes effect immediately.
1 hour to charge. Effect lasts 1 month.
5 heartbeats to charge and cast.
10 minutes to charge. Effect lasts 8 hours.
The Evening Sky Signs are heavily combat focused, seeming to revolve around the position of being a king or general on the field of battle.
The comparison voters need to make is whether [-1 Rank against Procyon] is more painful than missing out on a Sign whose effect will be stronger than Armor of Midnight's universal level defense. Signs are so overpowered that I'm confident in making that trade.
This was the basis for my panic - I wouldn't want to pick a fight while I was inside a universe intrinsically defined by my opponent. Since the Fifth Sign references the parameters of "The Universe" it might be nerfed by entering the radius of the shroud. Defense commensurate with targeting 'all interstellar space in the universe' just isn't very impressive when the universe has a radius of 300 Yards.
On the other hand, the protective abilities of the Armor of Midnight are probably being described with these benchmarks as part of exposition rather than mechanics. In that case, we're bringing a Universe-tier effect to a fight where our opponent is stuck on the Solar System level. The Armor of Midnight's defense is at least two tiers above an armament's offense (Stellar scale < Galactic scale < Universe Level).
The Sixth Sign is guaranteed to be even more powerful. As I mentioned above, it is likely to have a casting time that is feasible within the constraints of our fight with Procyon. If nothing else, the Walls of Myth have a defensive parameter that is explicitly noted to be conceptually stronger than mere rank.
Thought: Since we've come into contact with other Cursebearers to some extent, and those Cursebearers aren't all on the level of Haeliel- and haeliel is our primary point of contact, but not stated as the Only one, so this may be possible even if she's busy- we might be able to offer use of the Pillars Of Creation to however many of the other Cursebearers are able to reach our location and not so stupendously powerful that 21 additional days in the Realm of Evening with curses mitigated to 1/3rd strength is of negligible value to them. It doesn't cost us anything, it's a pretty powerful benefit, and- to look at it from the extremely short-term and less altruistic perspective- perhaps a combat-class cursebearer or other person more powerful then us will be interested, and be willing to spare a moment to fix the problem while they're over here, removing any remaining risk in the bravely-run-away option. Even if a combat-class can't gain as much from the 21 days, it's time without having to deal with their attendant Curses overmuch...
in summary, we might be able to help other Cursebearers out with the Pillars of Creation.
I think the most likely outcome of Hold the Line isn't that Hunger will win and everything will be fine (except for the millions of solders killed on the walls), I think he'll lose. It'll be the worst of both Hold the Line and Fall back; not only will millions of solders die on the walls, but afterwards a bloodied and vengeful army that's in much less of a rush will take out its wrath on the population, looting and kidnapping mages as they please with no Hunger coming back in two days to resolve things.
Even if you think that the Republic will kill more people looting than fighting (I don't but it's certainly possible), I think we can both agree that a republic that loots AND fights is much, much worse than a Republic that only does one of the two.
When you vote for Hunger to be a hero now, you are also voting for the possibility of his defeat. Of Gisena resurrecting him in a world where the Land of Myth is a burned out ruin where the name Hunger is a curseword, Versch is captured, and Letrezia is dead. Possibly even dead beyond recovery of anything less than a wish, if the astral-infused weaponry of the Republic is anything like the astral lioness we met.
You can vote to control your actions, but you cannot vote to control the consequences. If you're voting to Hold the Line for the cool fight scenes then sure, go ahead, but if you want Hunger to be a hero you have to own every possible outcome of that heroism.
Wolfy you're severely underestimating how much of an impact dropping AN ENTIRE RANK would have. The higher your rank is, and our rank is pretty damn high right now, the more effective every single fraction of a point is. It's a god stat that affects every single aspect of our abilities, and we'd be taking a huge hit.
Wolfy you're severely underestimating how much of an impact dropping AN ENTIRE RANK would have. The higher your rank is, and our rank is pretty damn high right now, the more effective every single fraction of a point is. It's a god stat that affects every single aspect of our abilities, and we'd be taking a huge hit.
This doesn't refute his argument, though. Would you rather have 1 Rank or Armor of Midnight? The power of Rank is universally applicable to our build, sure. But Armor of Midnight expresses its power in the format of a Universe-tier conceptual defense that can only be activated for 8 hours at a time, at moderate expense.
The Evening Sky Signs are more useful for the immediate combat challenge than the more general power of Rank.
The discussion is over at this point and everyone's made up their mind, but there's still time to farm salt. Every time we suffer even the smallest of consequences people melt down and this is post is for them.
ok, time for one more. I've slowed down quite a bit, but then again there's this crazy quest that's updating something like 20k a week (or more!), and I'm REALLY involved in/taken by that one.
As always, a blue horizon. The deep blue horizon of a mist-shrouded morning, the sky a callous gradient from black to bruise-blue, birdsong and a distant rumbling the only interruptions to the thick silence of this hour, a quiet thicker than the all-pervasive fog. A quiet like iron smog settling in the lungs. Even the detritus of the Inners is oppressive.
He shook his head, blinking away his father's resentments. The contamination was worsening. For six hundred and seventy-six days, Vanreir had awoken at exactly this time to attend to his daily duties. He grabbed pail and cloth and began to scrub.
There were those for whom duty was a prison and habit its cage, but he considered both more as scaffolding, the bedrock structure on which a life could be built. Meticulously he cleaned his room, the light of his soul kept coiled and inert, and moved steadily onto his sister's.
"Mm..." Erii was sleeping still, wrapped protectively around her plush pillow, and he maneuvered around her with quick, efficient movements, wiping down the weathered wood of the floors and carefully organizing her toys and knick-knacks.
"Brother?" She murmured groggily, slowly sitting up. She was growing more alert, even as his own body continued its slow decay. One day they would meet in the middle, and then irreversibly diverge. But not today.
"Hush, small one. Go back to sleep." He smiled and placed a hand on her head. Today, he could still keep her safe.
"M'kay. Love you." She nuzzled his hand affectionately before settling down to sleep.
It is all on your shoulders now, my son. Everything I am, I leave to you. Let my soul be your guide. Let your soul be my tomb. And let this be enough, to awaken that which was promised. Please... let it be enough.
Finished with his task, he walked past the now-empty master bedroom and towards the water closet. Their home was presentable, time to work on himself. A simple, linear routine was best. Fluctuation was the predecessor to instability.
When I read Erii I can't help but think of Eri from My Hero Academia. Not that I think there's any connection, it was just the first thing that came to mind.
Other than that... I'm not sure what to think or expect yet.
In the distance, the Star-forges of the Inner Ring began their spinup, ceaseless clanging like a bell endlessly rung. They would not stop until well after the sun went down. Were the Inner Residents inured to the clamor, or did some miraculous artifice render them immune?
ok, this is, like, 99% confirmation that we're talking about a temple resident. I suppose I was reaching too much by thinking about the other possibilities.
One day, they would know the answer. One day, they would live Inside as well. Soon, if he proved himself. If he made just one more step forward. They were such wondrous rumors of the Land Inside, and yet the veil of secrecy was profound, so much so that even an Outrider of his exalted rank didn't warrant concrete details. Of all the scattered peoples who'd come together around the Ring, his House had had the most precipitous fall. Once a legend, now a cautionary tale. His father had lived Inside, but Vanreir had never seen past the cerulean shell that marked the Inner Perimeter, and by the time of his birth his father had been unable to speak of matters beyond the sword and his legacy. Nonetheless, he didn't resent those who'd engineered their fall. Why wallow in bitterness, when one could move forward instead? He would dispatch them, like any other opponent, when the time came. One policy for all enemies was simplest.
His sigil hummed, and Vanreir suppressed a frown. The coordinators were well aware of how the light of his soul operated. They knew he was not to be bothered in the morning, regardless of the urgency of the task. An even, regular routine was necessary to stabilize the power within; for all the sharpness of his light, it could only ever move in one direction. He did not consider such a fault. That which was linear, was also stable. That which was simple, was also strong.
What exactly does it mean by that? My first thought would be something Like Escanor's powers in seven deadly sins, which is stronger at a specific time of day and progressively gets weaker after that point, in a constant cycle of strong to weak to strong.
Shocked as he was, his movements did not stop. Fluidly, effortlessly he drew the razor over skin, allowing himself to enjoy the satisfying schlick of the blade as it scooped cream and hair from skin. There, all done. Faultless and bloodless as always. His hands had never been so steady before his father's death.
He flicked away the last daub of shaving debris and slapped a hand across his cheeks, examining his reflection coolly. Eyes of storm blue. Hair of storm grey. His body's discorporation had not yet become apparent, his secret unrevealed. Time enough for two souls to do what one could not. Give us just one year more. One year, and Erii would be safe.
Well, the 2 R-types are likely Hunger and Gisena, though I have no idea what it means. Maybe we go from A to Z in a power-ranking system?
Also why exactly was Fairbright not a valid target before, but she IS now? Maybe she's not an adventurer from the outside, but someone from inside? Someone that decided the ring's torment is not just, and wants to correct this injustice?
"Experience has shown your abilities to be anything but false, Sir Amarlt. Keep this up and you'll be Lord Amarlt by day's end. Your grandfather would be pleased."
"And my father," he said.
The Coordinator coughed uncomfortably. "Er, yes. And... him. Good hunting, First Blade."
Unfortunate. He was far from peak condition, with his morning routine interrupted so. Still, this calibre of enemy did not demand his utmost. A junior Fairbright, her power barely tested. Mighty as their bloodline was, it could not compare to the light of his soul, much less his father's.
ok, obviously his father is a source of shame in the inner people's eyes. Also yeah, Fairbright IS from the temple! That's interesting! Is she a rebel against her family then?
Also it seems like the this person's strenght depends on following a strict routine. strange, maybe we'll get a better explanation later.
Seven decades had Justinan Amarlt trained to erase the disgrace of his youth. He'd never succeeded, but Vanreir was his legacy in form and in truth, the sword of their composite soul unfurling in perfect unity. Justinan the Blade. Vanreir the Unerring. They were hilt and tang, bullet and blasting-cap: helpless apart, but together unstoppable. Artificial as it was, they were the Unerring Blade returned, the Amarlt inheritance resurgent at last. As had been promised, if the successors were true and the hour was dire. Look through the cycle, and where I am needed, there you will find me.
Sometimes he wished that their forebear's standards had not been quite so high. Sometimes he thought that his father's life had been too high a price to pay, simply prove the sincerity of their cause. But he cast such thoughts quickly out of mind. Sincerity was simple, that did not mean it was easy. For a disgraced line, even this minute Return was grace undeserved. His father had bent everything to their restoration. Some would say he had gone too far. They would never understand the nature of a Blade. This, son, is the essence of our Thrust...
ok, confirmation of what I thought. His father disgraced himself, spent his life trying to atone, then sacrificed his soul to give power to his son... and apparently became his blade? It sounds a LOT like a Zanpakuto from Bleach, but then again Soul Evocation are pretty much Bankai by another name anyway.
Lightly he took his sword from its rack and stepped out the door. Dawn's first rays graced the horizon, the gold commingling with the blue. He spun his blade gently, crystal-steel trapping and refracting the light, sunbeams shattered into a dizzying spray. They painted the cobblestones and the world-worn walls of the Middle District and slipped futilely off the Inner Perimeter just beyond, its matte-blue opacity obdurate and unchanging.
Erii would be behind that sturdiest of walls soon enough. She was able, empathic and wise, already skilled in political maneuver. One day, she would ensure that House Amarlt could stand on its own legs once more, without the First Sword of the Outriders looming over its foes. On that day he would relinquish his father and join her for whatever years he had remaining. Until that day, there was only one thing that he could do.
Gabrielle Fairbright fell without incident. The blood of ten thousand heroes sang in her veins, choirs of the Astral had descended to shield her, her blade of legend had blazed like a second sun, plain become glass before its incandescence; and yet none of that had saved her from the ordinary thrust of his blade, which with unerring force struck true. That was his pride and culmination, the sole point and purpose of his existence, for which his father had given his life and his mother had died in despair. Strike a thousand times, or make one strike that tells.
That single strike his father had practiced day-in and day-out, practiced until his tendons wore down and his joints melted away, until his blood became dust and his bones became kindling, until the killing blow was nothing less than a way of life, and the conclusion of its stroke indistinguishable from life's ending.
I do not know if you will understand.
In the end, language can only reduce things so far.
This, son, is the essence of our Thrust:
Pierce through. Even if it cannot be pierced.
Panting, he leaned atop the blade like an old man with a cane, eyes roaming his body to assess the damage. His right arm was burned, his left arm a seared ruin, one eye gone, the lung on his left side unresponsive. A small price to pay to see a Fairbright downed. Though his body was a ruin, the light of his soul hummed merrily, eager and undiminished, its appetite whetted but far from sated. It was the nature of a thrust to go too far, to over-penetrate. That was how you made certain of the kill.
Also apparently we didn't manage to save the Fairbright... but at least, as I said, she weakened what is likely to be the most dangerous threat we'll meet in the mid temple!
Someone that might very well be stronger than some/many of the inner residents!
Of course there are stronger families inside, like other members of the Fairbright family...
[ ] R-Type #1 - How convenient, that the R-types would converge. Now Vanreir would not have to go searching. Enough simply to overcome them. A difficult task, but simple. The kind he liked best.
*Receive a +11% effectiveness bonus from allies of circumstance
*Though Vanreir is wounded, the light of his soul is otherwise at close to full power.
[ ] Close of Day - Mopping up some remnants, Vanreir encountered the second R-type, a man whose wounds were oddly symmetrical with those he'd picked up from his first fight of the day. Weakened and exhausted from his battles so far, nonetheless he would pierce through. One last obstacle, one last barrier, and then Erii would be safe.
*Vanreir is significantly weakened and, more importantly, fatigued from using his Compound Soul Evocation in multiple fights.
*However, his determination at this point is unstoppable, the inertia of the day and its proximity to victory fueling his will in all things.
*A strange affinity
*A highly skilled swordsman, even moreso than Hunger himself
*Employs simple, linear, but highly effective tactics
*His basic thrust is his 'ultimate move'
*Once begun, his thrust cannot be interrupted, nor does he miss. Range is not a factor.
*Similarly, he cannot cancel out of his thrust either. It requires wholehearted commitment.
*His overall parameters are substantially greater than Hunger's, though this does not account for any blood-based debuffs or the Form of Rage.
*However, his thrust would be threatening even to that Form.
well, if his thrust can't be avoided, interrupted, or stopped, the obvious thing to try would be a mutual kill. We have two more forms after all, so we wouldn't actually die.
[ ] Preparation: Withdrawal - Just try to stay alive. Vanreir wants your head, but even if he chases you to the Outer Temple, it's unlikely he'll be able to pass through the antechamber's defenses.
+20% chance of survival
+40% chance of no rewards from this fight
+Discretion
[ ] Preparation: Focus - You've faced longer odds with fewer forces. Against a magus, perhaps you are helpless without Gisena or the element of surprise. But this is a swordsman, and if his skill in the art is presently the greater, still Hunger recalls his war against a bladesmaster far greater than him. Before the violet blade of the Tyrant, what is one man's ordinary Thrust?
+5% effectiveness
+Awakens Moderate Condition: Trauma after the fight concludes
+Valor
[ ] Preparation: Dialogue [2 Arete] - Try to draw upon the strange affinity and turn him to your side. There's no reason beyond raw intuition to think this would work...
Baseline 10% chance of success, can be modified by other votes and discussion.
As it currently stands, will put you in Arete Debt.
[ ] Preparation: Resolve - Withstand the Thrust, its sharp terrible wounds of body and soul, and opportunity arises. Speed and technique are not the only types of strength. Weather the enemy's blow and they are open to counterattack.
+8% combat effectiveness, +17% Form of Rage chance
+50% chance to suffer a devastating condition if victorious
Tactics, omakes and discussion of all kinds will improve your odds independent of, and possibly synergistic with, your choices, even if they are not used in the update itself. Consider your votes carefully!
Ok, my first gut reaction would be to combine Resolve and Focus, and try to go for a double KO. once his sword is... let's say "stuck" in our body we kill him when by all rights we should be dead.
Yeah, probably not the best plan,but it's all I can think of, and I can't really imagine what words we could ever speak that would convince him.
Or we could go for the safer but less rewarding plan and try to lead him to the traps... but if his thrust can't be avoided no matter the range, what's to stop him from attacking us while we escape?
RANK. I would love to give up Armor of Midnight for +1 Rank right now, holy shit. We could take Call Up almost utterly without having to worry about finding something relevant and make this fight much more manageable with OaF II+I.
It isn't enough to just win this fight, and committing to that mindset is falling for the Apocryphal Curse's bait.
Giving up Rank for an immediate Sign might help us win this fight, but is risky if you think about what happens afterwards.
I'm not willing to believe that Rihaku will offer us a sixth Sign that is all of the below:
1. Is offensive/defensive in a way that is more relevant to this battle than the lost Rank AND whatever the cost is to cast it
2. Is Rank-agnostic in strength for both the caster and target (since we'll be dropping Rank against the highest-ranked opponent possible)
3. Meets appropriate conditions (castable fast enough, lasts long enough, cost low enough, cooldown is short enough) to equal the difference that 1 whole High Rank would make for the amount of time until we would have it back (Aobaru Hunter fight and any fights we engage in within the RoE and any incidental uses of Rank within said period).
These are the conditions that a new Sign would have to meet in order for me to consider taking it for -1 Rank viable.
I think that, at Sixth Sign level, asking for 1 and 2 together isn't too much. But you can't possibly believe that it comes with 3. In order to scale powerfully enough to meet the other conditions, it will have to either cost too much, take too long to cast, take too long to cooldown, etc. to not be an overall loss of power, in a time where we can't afford to do that due to the upcoming War + Aobaru Hunter.
You could argue that the picks/heroic advancement from the fight + RoE grinding would suffice to recover the lost power, and that we should therefore disregard 3, but:
First, you can't weigh the advancements we would get from winning as though taking the Sixth Sign makes them certain. It's possible that we take a suitable Sign and still lose! 5 Pick fights are not a joke. In the case of Hold the Line + Sixth Sign, the Rank sacrifice means that we're only gaining the amount of power by which the suitability of the Sixth Sign exceeds that of 1 High Rank, and losing power everywhere that it doesn't. And the Sign spell is likely to be temporary, with a potentially insane cooldown or ruinous cost, in which case we're left much weaker in general for the trade. In the other two cases, sacrificing the power of a whole Rank is unnecessary and detrimental, since it puts us at risk after the fight ends.
Second, Rihaku has hinted that RoE grinding for picks is more complicated than simply summoning and battling, so the possibility that Hunger's take of XP, and therefore remedial Rank, will be pretty limited for this first proc of Pillars is moderate to high. You might argue that we only need 2 picks for what is essentially OaF III. But whatever OaF III is, it's almost certain to be better when stacked on top of keeping 1 Rank than it is on top of whatever the Sign's narrow, most likely temporary capability is. Grinding the fight down to a 3/4 Picks by stacking power on top of Rank is more doable than exchanging Rank for other power. Even if picks are limited or OaF III is unavailable, Praxis/Graces on top of Rank does more and sacrifices less.
Third, we can't just be concerned with immediate victory but also mid-term power efficiency, due to Apocryphal. That's why you and non-Hold the Line builds are probably better off without Sixth Sign, even if Sixth Sign + Fall Back provides the absolute best chances of winning this specific fight, which I'm not so sure about. This is ignoring the possibility of being able to leverage the RoE into a Sixth Sign without having to give up nearly as much power.
Lastly, this fight puts our companions at immense risk right now, and losing even one of them meaningfully reduces the power of our RoE burst gains, which we'll need against the Aobaru Hunter + the warring factions later.
It actually is though? Five picks and Heroic Progression have hilarious amount of value, and difference in value between ranks 6.6 and 7.6 and 6th Sign is, in fact, minimal.
Additionally, facing fight without getting all short term power we can get increases chance of Hunger doing what he almost did at Augustine and burning himself out for power up, losing much more than 1 Rank.
The vote is highly contested, but it looks like Fall Back is beginning to fall somewhat behind. I'll eliminate the option furthest behind in one to two days!
Art of Hunger! I don't know what he actually looks like so he's just a visibly-hungry dark-gray silhouette, haha. Yellow eyes because the statement list says he has those, grey hair because the statements list has something which Might be about him mention grey hair. Honestly, the part of the drawing I think is best is the Evening Sky, which is also the only one I think is particularly good; I'm not actually sure what the Forebearer's Blade looks like, and Hunger is a ring, which means its small, which means it's not possible to give it that much detail on a full-body image...
Neat ghoul doppelganger!
Y'know, after we outscale Armaments, really the only things Apocrypha can credibly throw at us are cross-system synergies, powerful extrauniversal invaders, and things that scale to us directly. We'll probably be fighting a number of doppelgangers in this universe, honestly.
Based off the absurd power the last two signs have had and our general protection against rank difference from opponents, i'd be willing to get a sixth sign.
My worry with researching another sign is that they might have untenable casting times (that would require us to retreat anyway) or fairly large upfront costs. Even if we find something agnostic to Rank and win the fight, a five-pick option might not be enough to recoup the sheer amount of power lost.
Regardless of what option wins we'll end up fighting an Armament eventually so here are some tactics. I'm going to focus on Procyon since it's both more likely and more powerful.
Background: Procyon is named after the star Procyon, the brightest star in the constellation of Canis Minor. The name Procyon is from Greek and means "before the dog," a reference to the rising of this star shortly before Sirius, the larger Dog Star in the constellation Canis Major. It's also part of the Winter Hexagon. Procyon is one of the Behenian fixed stars, a selection of fifteen stars considered especially useful for magical applications in the medieval astrology of Europe and the Arab world.
...
Hunger is king of winter and the night sky, while the Armament is named after a star and part of the winter hexagon. There could be a conceptual authority we could exploit, or something about the magical nature of the Armament we might have power over, like how Augustine exploited Hunger's tower theft. Alternatively, maybe Dr. Amarlt just liked astronomy and named his Armament after his favorite star.
Augustine defeated Versch pretty easily, we might be able to re-purpose some of her tools. Whether they'd have any use against a fully healed Armament remains to be seen.
Once Nightmare Flight is fully charged it can be used at any time that day, and activates immediately, meaning Hunger could teleport Procyon and himself elsewhere. Probably useless, but if the restraints Augustine used to hold Verch are still around we could teleport Procyon into them. Alternatively this might allow us to teleport Procyon into the waiting mouth of the Arcanist.
Astral summoning, and exploiting the hostility of the astral beings to Armaments, has been mentioned.
Fully healing Versch would make this an even fight. No clue how we'd accomplish that though.
It is the nature of ruin to find flaws to exploit. Armaments seem to be flawless, but perhaps some application of ruin would reveal or create a weakness that we could then exploit using the instant and pinpoint precision of the Death Star.
Wrath form might allow Hunger to fake his death. Or at the very least survive one lethal blow. Too bad we don't have form of rage or final form for this fight...
Between all-defeating stance, our +1 defensive rank, and Hero-Defeating stance, we're a pretty strong anti-rank fighter.
The discussion is over at this point and everyone's made up their mind, but there's still time to farm salt. Every time we suffer even the smallest of consequences people melt down and this is post is for them.
DSB, your post got me all worked up. I think that you made a major logical misstep when presenting your three arguments about why the 5 picks from killing an Armament should not be counted as mitigating the loss of power from losing 1 Rank. Basically, all 3 arguments were reasons that you don't like taking the Sign, but they were not evidence that the 5 picks would be unable to compensate for the missing Rank.
What happens afterwards is that we get the benefit of 30 Arete + 5 Picks + 1 Heroic Advancement (with Hold the Line) or the benefit of 30 Arete + 2 Picks + Arcanist support + ~4 Picks (with Call Up).
Critiquing a build designed to topple an Armament because it does not also solve [future problem x] is foolish if you ignore the benefits gained from the Armament fight. Worrying about the Chains Terminator when Procyon is at the front door is very ???
We are a progression type. After we kill an Armament, those future problems will be less worrying.
I'm not willing to believe that Rihaku will offer us a sixth Sign that is all of the below:
1. Is offensive/defensive in a way that is more relevant to this battle than the lost Rank AND whatever the cost is to cast it
2. Is Rank-agnostic in strength for both the caster and target (since we'll be dropping Rank against the highest-ranked opponent possible)
3. Meets appropriate conditions (castable fast enough, lasts long enough, cost low enough, cooldown is short enough) to equal the difference that 1 whole High Rank would make for the amount of time until we would have it back (Aobaru Hunter fight and any fights we engage in within the RoE and any incidental uses of Rank within said period).
These are the conditions that a new Sign would have to meet in order for me to consider taking it for -1 Rank viable.
I think that, at Sixth Sign level, asking for 1 and 2 together isn't too much. But you can't possibly believe that it comes with 3. In order to scale powerfully enough to meet the other conditions, it will have to either cost too much, take too long to cast, take too long to cooldown, etc. to not be an overall loss of power, in a time where we can't afford to do that due to the upcoming War + Aobaru Hunter.
Our experience with previous signs give me ironclad certainty that (1) and (2) will be fulfilled by the Sixth Sign. In particular:
I've already argued that the Evening Sky Signs are optimized around discrete bouts of combat: preparing for battle by summoning a courtier and donning armor is the exact kind of boost that we need to use while our enemy is (briefly) stalled outside the Walls of Myth. The Evening Sky is meant for this exact situation.
We have many examples of Rank agnostic Signs.
Nightmare Flight (an Evening Sky tag) is rank agnostic, and notes that it can pierce wards created by lesser magics. Notably, Hunger's evaluation of the Walls of Myth positions Accretion itself as a lesser magic:
Raw magic, sheer conceptual weight seeped from the surface of the walls, a heady denseness of reality that stultified mind and spirit, Pressure more comprehensive than even that of Astral Rank.
Considering that the Cloak of Sky is linked to the same source as the Walls of Myth, I'm confident in pitting Signs against Rank.
Indomitable Dominion (a Noonday Sun tag) is power-agnostic, and scales up in proportion to a given spell's specificity in targeting Hunger.
Bastion of Myth (an Evening Sky tag) is specifically anti-rank.
Deathly star (an Evening Sky tag) scales with Rank, but imperfectly. Its blurb notes that it "will never be irrelevant."
Armor of Midnight (an Evening Sky tag) is Rank agnostic in that it provides Universal scale defense against an enemy who is only ever described at stellar-level offensive output.
I have already argued that the Evening Sky casting times are very likely to be quick enough to be relevant for the fight with the Armament.
I categorically reject your additional requirement that the 6th sign cooldown must be finished in time for the Chains Terminator interrupt. Hunger is a Progression Type Cursebearer who is about to take a swing at an Armament. Unless you're arguing that we need a build that can fight every outstanding threat simultaneously, this is not a reasonable criterion.
You could argue that the picks/heroic advancement from the fight + RoE grinding would suffice to recover the lost power, and that we should therefore disregard 3, but:
First, you can't weigh the advancements we would get from winning as though taking the Sixth Sign makes them certain. It's possible that we take a suitable Sign and still lose! 5 Pick fights are not a joke. In the case of Hold the Line + Sixth Sign, the Rank sacrifice means that we're only gaining the amount of power by which the suitability of the Sixth Sign exceeds that of 1 High Rank, and losing power everywhere that it doesn't. And the Sign spell is likely to be temporary, with a potentially insane cooldown or ruinous cost, in which case we're left much weaker in general for the trade. In the other two cases, sacrificing the power of a whole Rank is unnecessary and detrimental, since it puts us at risk after the fight ends.
There's a lot here so let me diagram the claims here:
We could take a Sixth Sign and still lose to the Armament
The marginal benefit of the Sixth Sign has to be considered net of the rank penalty
In particular the Sign's ratio between power and utility will be different than the ratio for Accretion
The cost in terms of utility is more painful for Call Up compared to Hold the Line.
We could take a Sixth Sign and win against the armament but then lose against a different foe after the fight ends
The Sign's cooldown or cost might make it unusable in future fights
Therefore: The Picks from killing the Armament can not be used as an argument in favor of Aggressive Research
I think this is a complete list of your points, although you might have ranked them differently. If I've mischaracterized your point, please correct me.
The first point is true but not informative. Nothing about this fight is a guarantee, so Sixth Sign does not guarantee that we'll win and get the 5 picks. However, that's not really evidence in favor of your conclusion that the picks from killing Procyon will be unable to compensate for the -1 Rank in the immediate aftermath of the battle. Arguing that we might lose even after taking Sixth Sign really just repeats your first criterion:
1. Is offensive/defensive in a way that is more relevant to this battle than the lost Rank AND whatever the cost is to cast it
The second point accurately asserts that if the Sixth Sign is a single-use ability (with a 1-year cooldown, for example) then the loss of 1 Rank makes us less powerful. However, it entirely neglects to consider the added value of a 5 pick Heroic Advancement. Unless I'm missing something, "we're down 1 Rank" is not actually a counterargument to the Researchers' claim that "5 picks helps to make up for being down 1 rank."
Second, Rihaku has hinted that RoE grinding for picks is more complicated than simply summoning and battling, so the possibility that Hunger's take of XP, and therefore remedial Rank, will be pretty limited for this first proc of Pillars is moderate to high. You might argue that we only need 2 picks for what is essentially OaF III. But whatever OaF III is, it's almost certain to be better when stacked on top of keeping 1 Rank than it is on top of whatever the Sign's narrow, most likely temporary capability is. Grinding the fight down to a 3/4 Picks by stacking power on top of Rank is more doable than exchanging Rank for other power. Even if picks are limited or OaF III is unavailable, Praxis/Graces on top of Rank does more and sacrifices less.
It is probably true that OaF III has more absolute power when applied to a build at Rank 7.6 instead of Rank 6.6. However, this is not evidence that the 5 pick advancement will be unable to compensate for the loss of 1 rank. The counterfactual comparison between Rank 7.6 OaF III and Rank 6.6 OaF III does not affect the value of the 5 pick advancement + RoE grinding in terms of compensating for -1 Rank.
Third, we can't just be concerned with immediate victory but also mid-term power efficiency, due to Apocryphal. That's why you and non-Hold the Line builds are probably better off without Sixth Sign, even if Sixth Sign + Fall Back provides the absolute best chances of winning this specific fight, which I'm not so sure about. This is ignoring the possibility of being able to leverage the RoE into a Sixth Sign without having to give up nearly as much power.
I think this point is untrue in a variety of ways.
First, the pendantry: We can't take Fall Back + Sixth Sign. They're mutually exclusive.
Next, the logical consistency: Mid-term power efficiency is irrelevant if we do not score immediate victory against the Armament.
Then, the truth value of the statement 'we need to be concerned with mid-term power efficiency, due to Apocryphal.' I agree with this statement, which is why I think it is so bizarre that you are trying to discount the mid-term value of Hold the Line by conducting your analysis without allowing consideration of the power growth associated with getting 5 picks.
Lastly, this fight puts our companions at immense risk right now, and losing even one of them meaningfully reduces the power of our RoE burst gains, which we'll need against the Aobaru Hunter + the warring factions later.
I actually think that this point is the strongest reason to try for Aggressive Research. The previous (story only) update has Hunger musing that he could grant his companions regeneration on the scale of his Ring of Blood while he was working on the process of Infusing Myth via his blood. Let me grab the quote:
While he was at it he could grant his companions a sympathetic blood-bond to himself, such that it would be infeasible to physically harm or slay them without overwhelming the regenerative power of his Ring.
It would be like changing the target of the Ordinal Spiral from the Heart of Magic to the infinite depths of a Cursebearer's potential and expressing the power through that. Sure, you're using the methods and aesthetics of a type of magic, but it's not exactly the same system, is it?
